Are DAC's overpriced?


External DAC's are pretty expensive imho... BUT I don't know that much on how to choose one. I want mostly cd's in my small two channel system... I am rebuilding after selling my Logans and Mac amp to go back to "drivers"! The Logans wore me out with Maintenance.  Should I buy a new cd player or get a new DAC for my old player?  
captbeaver

Showing 6 responses by itsjustme

without more data anyone who answered is ignorant.  On what basis do you find DACs overpriced?  what have you listened to?  Do you even know what t takes to build a truly good, o great sounding DAC?The D--A process is fraught with complexity, some of which i m just realizing - albeit it's obvious hen an engineer "gets " it.  what's hour real goal? Great sound?  The best digital sound available today?
Digital and analog today have complementary strengths. I wish one had both. My goal is to build something with both, but toady that's either impossible or costly.
Get real and ask a question that cna be honestly answered.
G



OK, I'll try to provide a little less rant-ish reply ;_) (although i stand by what i said).
If your question is really "what should I do about my digital?" - that's a very different question.  let me first emphasize truths that have been stated here in different places that I support:
1. A DAC is only as good as the jitter of the signal it is sent.  Jitter directly impacts the analog output by determining the points in PAM on a horizontal axis. SPDIF is NOT a pure digital signal when only bit recovery matters.
2. Anyone's ability to resolve and appreciate DAC differences is therefore depending on the transport signal.
3. Similarly it is dependent on the rest of the system (duh, but often overlooked when someone ways "i didin't hear a difference" (through some god-awful or simply inexpensive system)
4. SPDIF is synchronous, with the source as the master clock. USB is asynchronous withe the DAC as the only clock.  Therefore USB frees DACs from the tyranny of jitter (but picks up USB noise). I don't mean jitter doesn't matter, just that the jitter is now under the DAC's control.
5. The law of diminishing marginal gains lives. This is why "are they overpriced" is such a fraught question. To some yes, To others no. They cost what they cost.
6. Pay little attention to the chip used.  Worry about jitter, power supply design, digital (pre/up filtering), analog driver and post-filter - you know, the analog stuff :-)
Two new thoughts:
Digital - like all formats is more compromised by the recording process than decent playback. Listen to a regular old 44/16 recording "ella and louis" on a good system - not crazy good, but pretty darn good. 60 year old analog recording, competent transfer to digital, glorious.  We don't necessarily need high-res, we need competent, pure sound obsessed, recording and mastering engineers.  Note: if you are a 50 year old rock and roller with hearing loss, you may demand treble boost.  Bzzzt.

I have some very old but good DACs that stand up to upper-middle competition of today's very well, with my compromised transport (yea, my bad). I plan to switch to a ROON server and move away from SPDIF as much as possible to fix this ( and use a very good low jitter USB--> SPDIF for the legacy stuff, maybe my own frankenbox, maybe the new Schiit - Mike's smart).  I do have a frankenbox today - tandem PLLs that helps. Some.
Have fun. Sorry if i was a crank earlier. My point is that there are facts we can use - and a bunch of opinions, with no assumptions listed, are like signals with floating grounds.  Yikes!

G

The average blue collar guy can buy a Schiit Modi for $99.  I did.
Interesting you brought up MSB. I have a Full Nelson Gold. Also added a magic tandem PLL in it, and over the past few weeks built God's own (with apologies to God) external power supply - which made a big difference. That thing is still competitive.
G
mrkoven-
Can you provide more context on your system, room, listening method, expectations, and findings?
I'll note that discussing the DAVE int he context of budget DACs is kinda silly.... but its nice that you can try such things. I like the qutest a lot.

G
R2Rs are back on the market from Analog Devices. Schiit is using them in almost all their DACs as an upgrade.
Now, i'll debate that they are hands down better. I had a new schiit BiFrost MultiBit (R2), a MSB Gold Full Nelson, and a Theta DSPro Gen 2 - and we listened side by side, back and forth.  Frankly, different but very, very close.  People worry too much about chips and not enough about execution-  everything from digital filtering to power supplies to jitter reduction etc etc
I should add that all three, on good sounding CDs, were quite excellent. On bad material, well, GIGO.  The MSB was probably the most dynamic. The Schiit and the Theta had a strong family resemblance, a more laid-back presentation, and therefore maybe friendlier to poor material, with the Theta having a bit more heft than the Schiit. Then again it was $4000+ when it was new, and the Schiit is $599, and power supply and analog stage design have changed little in the interim.
I expect that a better source with truly low jitter could have changed the outcome - and made a bigger difference than choosing any of the DACs over each other.  I would like to ( and will) compare the same CD through the Schiit played over USB (asynchronous, DAC clocking) and a run-of-the-mill transport (synchronous, transport clocking).  I expect that will be enlightening.  The Schiit alas, is not mine so it takes a bit more doing.