Are cables additive or subtractive?

A problem with hi-end audio cables is the inconsistent sound between copies. In same model cables, some copies add more spl and some copies subtract spl on same high (or low) freq. The buyers of cables can't be confident on purchasing.

Alex/Wavetouch

 

I think additive or subtractive is too simple. All cables are basically R-L-C networks that have different ways of distorting the signal waveform. Additive or subtractive depends on what you want to hear from your system. If the highs seem down or up to you is that good or bad? additive or subtractive? All amps should be a straight wire with gain, but we know they are not. Same with cables or any other component. In the same way we learn to interpret a reviewers biases to see if they tend to coincide with our own.

According to David Salz (WireWorld) the basic issues are Impedance, Inductance and Skin Effect. All must addressed in pursuit of 'best' sound at any given price point

 

IME, the Ali-Express Odin 2 silver and gold are extremely transparent and unbelievably inexpensive compared to most well known ($$$$$) cable companies offerings

@felixa - I think it depends on the definition of additive.

If we're talking about additive from the perspective of adding to the original signal resulting in something better, then I don't think that's possible.  I think this was the intent of the OP.

However, if we're going to consider the addition of noise then additive becomes a bad thing with the goal of the cable to not be additive.

 

Cables are both additive and subtractive. Additive in that as a piece of wire it act as an antenna and pick up noise and add it to the signal chain. Cables are also subtractive because they have a resistance. The fact that resistance is different for different frequencies cables act as tone device. The dielectric material being polarized back and forth as the signal varies tend to dull or smear the sound, that could be also considered to be additive.

Another way to ask the original questions is:

How can a cable add anything to the electrical signal?

The scientifically perfect cable would pass the signal unaltered.

Every cable changes the signal.

Here's an over simplified example:

If cable A has a better high end than cable B then either cable B is rolling off the highs (subtractive) in comparison OR cable A is rolling off the lows (subtractive) making the highs more prominent in the overall sound.

@jtcf 

Might as well hang a sock over your tweeter. Cables as tone control? So NOT!

I should also say this, I've wondered if sometimes a maker's mid-range cables weren't deliberately made to be darker?  Like I've felt that they make low and mid-range cables to demonstrate an obvious difference, but only because the high end cables didn't totally suck?

Not for evil intent necessarily. The darker cables can be a godsend for a too bright component. Nothing wrong with getting a little help until one is ready to make an upgrade.

I should also say this, I've wondered if sometimes a maker's mid-range cables weren't deliberately made to be darker?  Like I've felt that they make low and mid-range cables to demonstrate an obvious difference, but only because the high end cables didn't totally suck?

@jasonbourne52 - My experience aligns with yours and the box somewhat because I find that differences are very small when switching back and forth. I find the biggest difference when I’ve made a change in my system after listening to it for months. In this scenario, some changes become very obvious to me while others don’t.  It’s not possible to use any system other than your own as a point of reference in my opinion when evaluating things like cables. 
 

Example: I struggled to really describe any difference between AQ Sydney RCA and Monoprice XLR in my current setup, but the move to Morrow Audio MA4 was clear and obvious to me. 

@eric-squires,

if high frequency roll-off from cables in your system resulted in improved spatial rendition chances are that you had RFI distortion somewhere in the chain. Cables are rarely anything other than an impedance/capacitance match or mismatch. And always: the shorter the better with the exception of power cables.

I wanted to let this conversation go before I spoke about my own experiences.

In all cases I’ve heard differences, and even done single-blind testing with others, the sound has been subtractive.

For IC’s, the most "effective" cables rolled off the high end considerably.

For speakers, that roll off actually contributed to better imaging, but at significant cost to the overall energy in the speaker cables. So, on the one hand, subtracting energy, on the other hand improving imaging, so we could almost call that additive, but my fellow listeners did not like that tradeoff.

My own experiences have turned me to solid silver IC’s and Mogami speaker cables.

All you believers in IC "sound" should build a simple comparator box and do the test! 

The Audioquest comparator box was an embarrassment to them because it proved that all ICs sound alike - that ICs neither add nor subtract anything to a music signal! That's why I remain an IC atheist after trying the comparator!

Back in the Days of Yore (early 80’s) Audioquest sent an IC comparator to their dealers for customers to try. This was a passive device with two pairs of inputs and one pair of outputs, with a rotary switch on top to select pairs of IC A or pairs of IC B. The comparator was connected between a preamp and an amp by a pair of IC C - which could be the same as either A or B. So totally passive with a single switch in the signal path after the preamp. This allowed instant listening to either IC A or B. Audioquest soon withdrew their comparator because nobody could tell A or B apart. I tried it myself and could hear no difference between two pairs of ICs from different mfgrs.

My 2 cents:

Cables can’t add more or ‘better’ information than is in the original signal (cd, LP, high rez file, master tape), so cables can only ‘contaminate’ the original signal. 

If we call the original music signal “100%” and you replace a cable that only gives you 70% (of the original 100%) for one that gives you 90%, it will sound 20% better, but it did not become 120%.

Unfortunately my experience is that they are contextual: their specific resistance, impedance and capacitance characteristics work well in one setting and are negative in another, This applies equally to digital and analogue connections. And the permutations from shielding, gauges, metallurgy and connectors are mindboggling. The best solution therefore is no cable. Think Uptone USPCB…

That said they are a major component in system synergy and a bl**dy money pit.

I think it is definitely subtractive.

Whether it is cabling, phono cartridges, CD transports or dacs. The goal is to subtract interference, subtract vibration or subtract jitter.

Our goal is to remove all the added crap to get back to a pure signal.

If this makes any sense here it is. I have Van den Hul ’The First’ ic’s. They seem to take the most away in the sound that is electronicy, edgey, glary, thin, ghosty, and leaves a more natural sound. I have some audio art 3SE’s that seem to make the music feel bouncy in a good way, rubbery, elastic, if that makes any sense, music becomes more moving, seems timing is expressed a little more in a good way, bass line??, I don’t know for sure, but they have just a tiny more edge.. I have some mit 330’s that gives a bit more body to the music but the highs seem to have a small extra bit of metallic in contrast to more wood sounding when it comes to wood instruments. I have some Madie signatures that give me some natural openness, natural transparency, natural air, but leave me a very slight whitish residue.

@hilroy48

+1 ..,. Nailed it!

NOTE: cables are not tone controls.But as with other components in your system, their synergy / or lack of it with the rest of the cradle-to-grave systems will influence your tastes vis-à-vis Yay or Nay.

KEY POINT OPTION # 1: assuming you DO HAVE the decent / high-end hi-fi gear to start with

 

(1) cables at their best IDEALLY are neither additive nor subjective. They are just supposed to be a signal pass-through in the audio system …ergo IDEALLY neutral and transparent with a minimal to nil insertion of its own tonal effects change .

However, all audio equipment pieces in the link exhibit their own bespoke sonic signature that cannot be avoided. That includes cables.

Hence, it is an alchemy “best available” solution to experiment with different cable designs, materials, and build quality to try to get as close to that Holy Grail of system synergy AND the individual cable tonal colonization minimization effects ( if any)

- ergo. Cables can be somewhat unavoidably mildly additive or conversely subtractive DEPENDING ON YOUR BESPOKE SYSTEM SYNERGY OVERALL, …with an ultimate purist goal of elimination and creation of a theoretical complete neutrality that is difficult to achieve …. that is the ethereal “Holy Grail” highlighted above

KEY POINT OPTION # 2: assuming you DO NOT have the decent / high-end hi-fi gear to start with

- the effects of cables in the context above is greatly reduced or eliminated. The absence of system higher resolution capabilities dampen/ flatten/ minimize/ kill/ (insert your own description) the audio performance effects of cables .

-ergo…minimal to nil additive or subtractive … largely just a strong audio effects of cables “additive” versus “subtractive” being agnostic.

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES

i have four 2-channel systems ranging from $40K to $1K

(a) cables DO MATTER THE MOST in my top A system …and only a lengthy hands-on swap-in / swap-out experimenting over 10 years with different OEM brands and models in my OWN system (emphasis added …) got me as close as possible TO DATE in system synergy AND the elimination of cables being either additive or subtractive.( as close as possible, which is the objective of quality cables)

(b) the effects of cables in audio performance as I like it decreases as I move down the system $$ strata.

3rd PARTY SELECTIVE COMMENTS

AUDIO: SPEAKER CABLES - From Alan Shaw (owner and designer of HARBETH)

NOTE: I used to have an all-NORDOST FREY cables full loom and they were fine with my last speakers., When I changed to HARBETH 30.2XD’s, something was now curiously “off”. So I upgraded all the cables loom to CARDAS CLEAR loom, and voila … a more pleasing outcome with added slam and dynamics. It was not a subtle improvement . Go figger!

The flat multi-strand and very thin core silver coated NORDOST array were now a step down from the thick gauge all-Cu CARDAS CLEAR new array that mimics the comment below.FWIW..

” … So, the moral of the story is this: the most important factor of the loudspeaker cable that you should select is the amount of metal in the cable core. More metal means lower resistance.

If the core is round (as most are) then the correlation is simple: the fatter the diameter of the metal core the better because the electrical resistance between amp and speaker will be lower.

Thin and really thin cores should be avoided regardless of how exotic the metal material is claimed as the lack of metal in the core conductor will increase resistance. That will reduce amplifier damping, effect the frequency response of the speaker and give unpredictable results that will vary from amp/speaker combination.

Do not be fooled by the diameter of the external plastic sheath: what matters is the metal content of the core. The more the better, without exception….”

 

Cables can only subtract from the original signal because they are passive devices.

From a purely theoretical perspective, all audio equipment is intended to amplify, pass and reproduce the original signal unaltered.  This is obviously which results in many different approaches to achieving the best final result.

I think that noise elimination is a key.  You can obviously hear noise directly if it's significant enough, but I also think that having noise has a significant impact on the overall sound.

If a cable, for example, results in a more harsh sound, it didn't add the harshness, it either allowed noise into the signal or filtered out something else that left the harshness.

Because every cable will filter out slightly different things and/or allow different levels of noise into the signal they may all sound different.  At this point listener preference takes over and if a cable improves the sound to my ear, I will tend to think of it as additave.

Think about a cup of coffee.  Coffee is the signal and the goal of the water, temperature, process used, etc. is to make the final cup of coffee to the taste of the person drinking it.  Increasing the quality of the water or changing the amount of water used doesn't add anything to the coffee, but does change final taste.

 

Who's to really say? Do cables,

• hinder clarity or add shrillness?
• strengthen base or bloat the lower end?
• add warmth or smear the sound?
• tighten and focus or lessen body?

I think one has to be intimately familiar with one's system and proceed from there. The more resolving the system, the easier to discern how (hopefully) the cables get out of the way of what your'e hearing. One must pay attention and rely on that (often derided) auditory memory one has to ensure that what improves isn't at the expense of other qualities that one enjoys or has finally ironed out. 

It's a game (and a gambit) and should be looked at it as such, but in my experience, I want a cable to only subtract the negatives and not add a thing to the mix.

All the best,
Nonoise

 

Depending on your equipment and the room, cables will make a difference. If you have cheap junk gear, you will most likely not hear any difference. Types and brands all sound different. case in point. Same gear, same room. Speaker cable "A" I already own and happy with. sounds great. Cable  "B" brought over by dealer, $1300.00 cable. Sounds like crap, like wet blankets were put over the speakers. Cable "C" recommended by another dealer. delivered more focus and detail. $1300.00 as well. I own them now. Yes all cables will make a difference as long as you have decent gear top start with.

My impression with all cables (including mains) that I have thought an improvement on what I was using previously is that more of the music is getting through to key components of the system, and ultimately to my ears; or to put it another way, the musical signal is being better conveyed. This implies subtraction: the reduction of hash or interference that otherwise impedes musical fidelity – but not necessarily subtraction from 'the signal'. 

@marqmike - Can you be more specific?? Like cables X adds Y and cable A subtracs B?

Both it seems. I use them as small final sound adjustments. Sometimes it adds something I like and sometimes it takes something away I like. I have about 8 sets of different ic's. And to me I t seems I can count on them changing the sound the same way in every system. I kind of like that. But like all of us I have just limited experience.