Apartment Dweller's Paradise - The Ideal 2 ch. system?
We've had really great threads on Audiogon so far, so I'd like to keep the ball rolling.
One subject rarely covered enough in the music world are systems that are specifically for apartment dweller's. These systems are more modest in size and cost. Dolby Atmos? Forget-about-it!
How would you put together a system, under $10k, soup to nuts?
OH HAPPY DAYS,the ULTIMATE Apartment dwellers amp/dac is back!!! The wonderful,amazing Quad VA-One+ is now shipping.Updated DAC board to the latest SABRE DAC chip & an new AUTOMATIC BIASING circuit now make this the end game apartment/bedroom system control center!!!BUY ONE BEFORE THEY SELL OUT,I DID!!!
Also a bass array can be 4 or more small 8" or even 6" subs small enough to fit easily under or around furniture. Placement is far less crucial and if the bass needs to be turned down because of neighbors its a lot easier to live with since its so much more smooth and extended.
One suggestion I have is a bass array. A bass array will smooth out room nodes, which means not having big bass peaks near the walls ... i.e. getting into the neighbors units. This may give you some practical volume extension while being neighbor friendly.
stringreen:"If you're REALLY interested in getting the best sound and to keep the neighbors happy.....get high end earphones with a dedicated amp. You'll have all bases covered." What about keeping us happy?Headphones are wonderful but will NEVER take the place of a well built 2 channel system,neighbors be damned... Since I posted twice in this thread,I've gone through through the wonderful Quad VA-One,iFi Audio Retro 50,Cayin CS-55 & Creek Evolution 50a with Ruby 2 DAC board & I am about to pull the trigger on what I hope will be my end game set up,the Gold Note DS-10/PA-10 combination...
If you're REALY interested in getting the best sound and to keep the neighbors happy.....get high end earphones with a dedicated amp. You'll have all bases covered.
Today another killer little apartment amp arrived fresh from full factory rebuild..The iFi Audio Retro Stereo 50 is,like the Quad AV-One an EL84 Class A PP all in 1 control amp...In the right size room with the right speakers these tiny titans provide world class sound!Unlike the lowish powered Quad, the iFi has an amazing tube driven headphone circuit that can be optimized for any conventional headphone/in ear monitor available,including the HiFiMan HE6 where it will feed a massive 7 watts!
@elizabeth , excellent point! I have found the better my system gets the lower the volume I need to "sound good". I also rarely go above 80 dB C- weighted peaks.
This thread is a good idea and I REALLY want to shout out again to the wonderful Quad VA-One control amp...Search out the reviews,this little powerhouse is about as close to the perfect apartment amp as anything out there at any price!
I put my current system of Quad VA-One driving Dynaudio Excite X14’s up against anything out there in a small room... Even at lower listening levels it still has body and detail...I’ve experimented with plugging the port and putting them against the wall and the room still disappears..Amazing pint size speakers and superbly musical amp with fantastic(although underpowered)headphone circuit...
" Ideal system for a SMALL space is a headphone system , With a little careful buying you can get as good, or better, than the average 10K$ system for a thousand bucks . And 95% of the population can adjust to "phones. After 3-4 weeks they seem normal ."
Great Point "Schubert"
Well, I have a very nice Headphone System in mind as well. And this will be a home and mobile system.
Headphones (1): Focal Clear (Home) -- $2,000.00 Headphones (2): Sennheiser HD-600 (Mobile) -- $300.00 Headphone Amplifier/DAC/DSD: McIntosh MHA-100 -- $2,500.00 (Used) Phono Preamplifier: PS Audio GCPH -- $500.00 (Used) Turntable/Arm System: VPI Industries Scout/JMW Memorial Arm -- $2,000.00 Phono Cartridge: Sumiko BPS EVO III -- $550.00 Digital Music Player (Home): BlueSound Vault 2 -- $1,200.00 Digital Music Player (Mobile): Sony NW-WM1A -- $1,200.00
System Total: $10,250.00 + XLR Cables (Home & Mobile System)
Ideal system for a SMALL space is a headphone system , With a little careful buying you can get as good, or better, than the average 10K$ system for a thousand bucks . And 95% of the population can adjust to "phones. After 3-4 weeks they seem normal .
I would get the small harbeths and a Croft amp or used red wine as suggested. On a smaller budget perhaps powered speakers like Adam pros with a good dac streamer like bluesound or oppo.
Or if I am to move into VERY small efficiency (renting an apartment or buying a condo)(about 500 Sq. Ft. or less), and would still would like to have excellent sound, then I can also put together this nice little system for VERY little money.
Speaker System: ELAC UB5 — $500.00 or Wharfedale Reva-2 — $1000.00* Speaker Stands: Sanus Steel Foundations SF26B (Sand/Lead Filled) — $130.00 Powered Subwoofer: Speedwoofer 10S RS Wireless — $400.00 Integrated Amplifier: NAD C-338 — $650.00 Headphones: Sennheiser HD-650 — $500.00 Turntable: Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit (in Black) — $600.00 Phono Cartridge: Ortofon 2M Blue — $250.00 Digital Music Player: BlueSound NODE 2 — $500.00 Speaker Cables: AudioQuest GBC — $150.00 Interconnects: AudioQuest Red River (2 Prs. @ $120.00 each) — $240.00 Digital Cable: AudioQuest Pearl (Coaxial) — $40.00** Tablet: Apple iPad Mini 4 (128 GB)(Additional Music Source) — $400.00 Smart Phone: iPhone 6S (2015)(64 GB)(w/NAD & Speedwoofer Apps) — Free Stand: SolidSteel S5-5 — $1,500.00
System Total: $5,860.00 w/ELAC UB5 Speaker System System Total: $6,360.00 w/Wharfedale Reva-2 Speaker System
* = Wharfedale Reva-2 has a Piano Cherry or Rosewood Finish I find to be intoxicating and that I “MUST” have
** = Price of AudioQuest Pearl Coaxial Digital Cable is approximate
If the room is really small (like my 18sqm study) I think nothing beats the Harbeth P3ESR speakers. Since they are a closed system, they can also be located relatively closely to the wall. In a somewhat larger room one could add two small subwoofers (works a treat, I tried it, but with Antimode 8033 equalization), and or move up to the Harbeth M30.1. Electronics would depend on the sources that are required. Assuming a TV and discs are also part of the story, I would go for an Oppo UDP205 as a universal player, serving as a pre amplifier as well. Chromecast Audio for streaming. Add a 2x100 watt power amplifier (or more in a larger room and with the M30.1) with balanced inputs. Benchmark AHB2 if you want the best, Emotiva if budget matters. If a disc player is unneccessary, why not a Yamaha RN 803d?
Digital Music Player: BlueSound VAULT 2 -- $1,200.00
Phono Stage: PS Audio GCPH -- $500.00 (Used)
Turntable/Arm: VPI Scout w/JMW-9T Tone Arm -- $2,000.00
Phono Cartridge: Sumiko BPS-EVO III -- $550.00
Splitter RCA Jack: AudioQuest Hard RCA Splitter (Plugged Into Subwoofer Output On Rear Of KEF LS50 Wireless Speaker System To Accommodate Two VTF-1 Mk3 Powered Subwoofers) -- $13.00
Power Cords: Pangea AC 14SE MkII -- (x4)($65.00 Each) -- $260.00
There is always a pr of Sennheiser HD headphones and an Woo or Pangea headphone amp . In my bedroom I have a pr of HD 650’s driven by a Pangea HD 201 which uses one 12AX7, using an Amprex Holland on mine , NAD 565BEE as source All bought used except the Pagea , I have less than a grand in it and truth be told, it sounds so good it would be my only system were I a young man just starting out in Audio . I would use the money I spent on my other system(s) to either buy a new Mercedes 550 or make a nice donation To "Save the Children Fund " .
I never really liked " phones but I was surprised how quickly I adjusted to them when I actually spent time required to adjust !
@erik_squires said: "I'm waiting on someone to bring up small, horn loaded speakers."
I have a reasonable, 3- or 4-way "hybrid" (or partial) horn system in a small apartment in Brooklyn with a 12' x 12' (with 9' ceiling) living room:
Altec 3000G (with integrated horn) tweeter
Altec 804A 1" compression driver on Edgarhorn 650Hz Tractrix horn
Altec 414Z 12" woofer in modern Altec 614 cabinet
Cain & Cain Bailey subwoofer
At the moment, I amplify all three Altec drivers (including mid-bass unit) with a Type 45-based single-ended power amplifier. And with this, I use a homebrew passive crossover. (The subwoofer has an integral plate amp and its own crossover network.) This is pretty far from ideal, though, for someone like me with so little crossover understanding. So, I'm in the process of converting to a more sophisticated configuration with an active digital crossover with a separate power amp on each driver pair or "frequency unit." This will allow for lots of crossover experimentation; improved bass quality (by using a more powerful, perhaps solid state, amp on mid-bass); and time alignment, equalization, and room correction.
Of course, with these speakers and two racks full of tube gear and a large turntable, the system (at least visually) dominates the room -- which may not be to everyone's taste. That said, it all fits neatly on one 12' wall, and (happily/strangely) appeals to my fiancee. (She's a designer and completely unpredictable when it comes to aesthetics. I got lucky on this one!)
I used to use (and still have) a pair of Cain & Cain Abbys, which might work for a similar apartment-dweller. Although almost 6' tall, they have a tiny footprint. And they were made (by a simple driver swap) in two versions, including "nearfield," which allows for a very close listening position. As Voigt Pipes, these are in the horn family, I guess -- or at least not too far removed -- so I figured I'd mention.
Anyway! Lots of ways to do this, as all of the excellent posts above prove...
I agree that unit size is an important factor for most apartment dwellers. As is combining functions into an integrated plus sources or an all-in-one unit to save space and wiring. Perhaps half size units from Cyrus, Bel Canto, or TEAC would work. Of these, the British-made Cyrus is my clear favorite. Unfortunately, distribution is spotty in the U.S.
April Music offers the Aura Note 2, an unusual desktop all-in-one unit with a Class D 125-watt integrated amp, top-loading CD player, FM tuner, and a host of digital inputs. Was a Stereophile Class A product just a couple of years ago. Saves hassle and cost of cables. Just need speaker cables and a USB cable for digital input. and an optical digital cable.
And a longtime audiophile favorite just got a major upgrade: the Rega Brio R integrated with phono preamp. But no digital inputs. Mates beautifully with the Rega Apollo R top-loading CD player. Both half-size units.
ClairAudient makes two bookshelf/desktop speakers using single drivers that sound extraordinarily well in small or nearfield. environments. The ONE and the slightly larger V2 1+1.
For floorstanders, I would audition the Totem Arros and the OHM Microwalsh speakers.
I am not a fan of wireless speakers, so I am not the person to recommend.
I've been thinking about this issue in part for my desktop system. I built my own 2-way monitors, but the little digital amp I bought is seriously underpowered, plus it's really inconvenient to switch cables for headphones vs. speakers.
So I'm bidding on e-bay for a Parasound Zpre and Zamp. With luck I'll spend around $200 for both, and end up with a 45w/ch rig. The Zpre may be overkill, but I have a logitech touch that is gathering dust. Would be nice to have music here that didn't require the PC to be on.
Also noted, the latest Zpre has a dedicated sub-woofer output. Pretty sweet for a high-end mini sat/sub system.
I find it interesting that so many posters are suggesting systems with a multitude of components and loudspeakers that need to be placed out in the listening room for proper functioning. Space is a luxury item for apartment dwellers and I doubt most will have a dedicated listening room. Along these lines an ideal 2 channel system would be streaming device and a pair of wireless/powered loudspeakers. Klipsch, Dynaudio, KEF, Paradigm and others make this type of loudspeaker. Paired with a music streaming service such a system could even eliminate the space needed for CD storage.
Alternatively, Magnepan's Mini Maggie system doesn't take up much space and someone earlier mentioned Gradient Revolutions as loudspeakers that operate very well placed right up against the rear wall. Either paired with a device like the AVM CD streaming receiver would be very satisfying. Steinway Lyngdorf's Model S system would require more components (2 amps and a digital processor), but are also designed for against wall performance.
I like what I heard from the Odyssey Kismet speaker that was on display at a show. I believe the company makes direct sales, so it may not be that easy to arrange an audition. I heard them in a small room at a show, placed not to far from the back wall, so I think they are suited for small spaces (small floor-standing speakers).
In the much more expensive camp, the smallest and cheapest Raidho speaker is pretty good (to me, better than their bigger speakers).
The British company Neat makes some nice speakers that will be a good fit for smaller rooms.
Also quite hard to find for audition, but worth looking for are Trenner and Friedl (Austrian) speakers. These are lively sounding speakers that are a little bit off the beaten path.
I know the ideal situation is to move to the wilderness and build your own home with a separate home theater and music room, and most of the reviews in Stereophile seem to pretend that is the only consumer of good audio gear.
The purpose of this thread however is to explore gear that is much more friendly to modest spaces and systems. Perhaps not just in modest homes/apartments but also offices.
Let's try to keep the focus on good gear for smaller spaces and budgets please.
Most of US is in a bubble on housing , an 100 grand a year job won't get you a house in many places . Most houses in Twin Cities sell for over listed price, often Far over , and are financed by the Bank of Mom & Dad .
courant, I l hear you, live in a condo as well . My solution was to find a unit with a outside wall onto a 8 feet wide stairwell, and a 20 foot bedroom on the other side of my living room. Floor is 3 feet of concrete as it is roof of underground parking. Haven’t heard anything from ceiling in 3 years so whatever it is OK. No sweat to listen at normal volume at 3 AM . Took me over a year to find it . .Oh, also put thick cork mat over inside of door .
As per a number of my responses in other threads, I'm a Condo Dweller and have pondered variations of this thread for a number of years...
In building my own systems, I first identified speakers that were (1) condo/apt friendly and (2) had a "house sound" I could live with. I figured that speaker choice would then provide guidance for components. Other key points I needed to remember included that (1) my ceiling neighbor was the current HOA President and (2) my wall neighbor was the previous HOA President. And so, even though I lusted after Wilson Sashas, I knew it wasn't going to happen...
My current speakers Harbeth C7es3s paired with a Naim SuperNait2 in the great room (transparent Ultra RCA IC; NACA5 Speaker wire), and Harbeth P3esrs paired with a Linn Exotik/LK85 combo (AQ Niagara IC with AQ Bedrock Speaker wire) in my media room. Almost went with Focal 1008 BE, but preferred the C7s. In addition, I run a Naim unitiserve through both systems via a router/access point. I like the Naim/Linn "FlatEarth" sound, so all is good.
Lower cost alternatives to the Harbeths that I would consider would include Linn Majik 109s or Majik 140s; and Vandersteen IICes. Prior to the Naim SuperNait2, I had an Ayre AX-7e with Majik 109s.
If you ever looked at Japanese audio magazines, you will see a lot of systems in tiny apartments that seem to defy logic--they are HUGE horn systems. The reason for horns is that they actually sound fantastic at whisper quiet volume levels. Aside from the footprint of the speakers themselves, these types of systems are quite apartment friendly. They also tend to be very efficient, which allows for the use of the best sounding amps: low-powered pushpull or single-ended triode amps.
Another recommendation I have, in addition to those I mentioned earlier, for an apartment speaker is the Gradient Revolution. This speaker can be configured (the bass section can be made to fire in different directions) for a fairly wide array of setup options, including against the back wall. I have heard it sounding really good in a small room and at fairly low volume. One downside is that it is not very efficient.
Right now I have Clearwave Duet 6 monitors powered by Marantz Reference integrated with matching SACD player and it sounds great. Looking forward to hearing the new Elac Adante monitors next month. Used to have anything from Legacy Classic speakers (too big) to Hornshoppe Horns to Decware Radials and MMGs.
Most anything can work if you're willing to give up some functionality and turn your living room into a dedicated listening room. Despite the small nature of apartment spaces, listening in the near field has its advantages.
Love the super efficient, 99db, sound of Lowther Field Coil Drivers. . . Probably would put them in an open baffle such as this one from Nelson Pass http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_slob.pdf I'd combine it with a First Watt Amp. I'm sure it would be magical even at low volumes.
Mark and Daniels Topaz, Rubies or Sapphires (insanely refined, coherent, huge sound image masters from minimonitors) No sub needed. Mind boggling on IsoAcoustic Aperta stands. bel canto DAC2.7 or 3.7 and CD3t bel cantor eOne series Ref500S or Job 225 Cullen Cables power cords, ICs and SCs (very high value) Gaming PC with great sound card and 4TB drive... connected to the DAC The above takes very little space, is versatile , remote controllable and can fit on a side table top. Totally does with realism chamber to EDM . Add used TT if that's for you and you have space.
Haven't seen anyone mention Triangle speakers which are sensitive and tube-friendly. I have the Triangle Colors run by a Red Wine Audio (no longer in production) integrated, 15 wpc, and a red wine audio DAC. The speakers come with port plugs for bass tuning.
Im a big fan of all-in-one systems too. Bel canto, Naim, and Wyred 4 Sound all make integrated+DAC + something else. Clever little boxes. Matching speakers like some Proac monitors would be cool.
@asahitoro : I think you nailed. Great recommendations.
Funny you should ask. This is how I did it in the past year....all pre-owned gear for around $10,000.00.
Lavardin IT
Linn Ikemi
JM Reynaud Bliss Silvers
Vintage Linn LP12 in NM condition: upgraded the bearing to Cirkus, the sub-chassis to Majik, the power supply to Lingo2.
The Reynauds' sound sublime at low volumes...perfect for apartment living. It took nearly 40 years but I finally got it right. And now I'm free to spend my disposable income elsewhere. Life is Good.
Forgot to mention why I feel they sound so good :/ Imaging is excellent and speakers seem to disappear in room. These are great speakers for small spaces due to their size but can also fill up a much larger space with non fatiguing sound. You might also want to check reviews on his "Truth" preamp. Very unique design and very highly regarded.
So many options for components but one of my favorite speakers, when considering space constraints, are from the Horn Shoppe in North Carolina. Full range folded horn speakers (rear vented), utilizing fostex fe126en drivers. Very efficient and compact for a small tower speaker. Made to be placed in corners (good for small spaces). It's hard to believe the sound they produce from one small 4" driver. Careful though the maker (Ed Shilling) is right out of the "basket of deplorable's". It's okay, he'll be the first one to tell you that.
Hey @erik_squires , i actually live in a modest size NYC apartment. I've always opted for nice monitors and then integrated it into my living area but not with my tv (don't want to run the amps that often)
Audio Note 300B kit ($1,995) Audible Illusions modulus 3a ($1500) Sonos Cullen mod ($800) Arcam irCam ($800) NAS RAID 5, KEF LS50 ($1,500) Hsu uls 15 mk2 ($700) $6,900 with cables and sounds fabulous even at low volume. The downside is 8 w/ch. It won't make hard rock rock hard.
I'm using a 2 watt Decware SE84UFO amp with high efficiency (96bd) speakers and an Omega deep8 sub in a 1,000sq ft apartment and love it. Volume on the amp never goes past noon. Plenty of volume, density, imaging, and overall great listening. I think the key to is not get an amp that over powers the room.
Decware amps and Omega speakers are a great place to start.
Actually, this is a very good point! I mean, Parasound DOES make very nice things, but their Z series gear in particular is IDEAL for the starter 2-way system. :)
I highly recommend it. Their little ZDac V2 is the better of some $2k gear.
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