Anyone ditch the sub after large speaker purchase?
I am about to kick the subs to the curb. Having recently acquired a pair of custom made Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 reference, they provide me with enough deep and articulate bass that I don’t even bother with using subs anymore. I mean prodigious amounts of bass...not the bass that is just heard, but also felt, even in the rear listening chairs at the back of the room, which is almost 30 feet away. It feels like I have subs with these new speakers.
Yeah, it’s when playing loud that the rear end of the room is so vigorously energized...and not because of nasty room acoustic anomalies, the seats pick up the pressurized air due to the room being pressurized with 300 tube watts per channel driving highly efficient field coil horn speakers with 18 inch downward firing bass driver and 15 inch forward firing bass driver.
In almost 25 years of sub use and integration with various systems, I find that my newly customized room designed around the principals of room mode mitigation, noise abatement, and damping resonances based on my experience in building secure sound proof spaces, has paid off.
There is nothing like playing music at low levels or loud levels with clarity and preciseness in bass when the stars are aligned and that is why I don’t feel the need for subs anymore. My bass is so awesome with these large almost 400 pound speakers and my amps enjoy driving them to room shaking levels if I played loud enough. Of course, the room investment itself was a considerable factor in my positive listening experience which at Its core is concrete all the way around except the ceiling.
When I stream music, I have to actually turn down the bass of the audio settings in my streamers audio settings. When playing vinyl, the bass goes so deep that I felt as if the subs were on, when in fact, they are not. I am tired or messing around with measurements and dialing in subs for now. It’s not needed and I see why people with large speakers don’t have subs. Perhaps, later on in this audio journey, I might experiment with some type of bass resonators, but I ask myself why? I have all what I need and am not missing anything in terms of bass.
Anyone else ditch the subs after large speaker purchase? What’s been your experiences?
In almost 25 years of sub use and integration with various systems, I find that my newly customized room designed around the principals of room mode mitigation, noise abatement, and damping resonances based on my experience in building secure sound proof spaces, has paid off.
Yes, indeed. A great room is a lot more speaker friendly. You eliminate a number of issues related to room/sub/speaker integration here as well. I’m not saying they can’t be overcome, but that few do it well.
But if you were to put those same speakers in a modest, average living room, I’m sure I could beat their performance with subs, EQ and bass traps. :-)
The only way to tell if you need bass traps is to measure, or experiment. No room modes? No reason. You’ll just suck bass out of the room. Using Roon in a great room? A little PEQ in the digital domain may be all you need.
On many large full range systems you can turn off the subs and not miss very much or anything. If you want 15Hz low organ notes you might want to turn the sub back on...maybe.
I lost interest in audio around 1984. When I got back into it after having a mountain bike accident and becoming paralyzed 2 years ago I was shocked at the lack of full sized speakers. What they call floor standing speakers today are a joke....30” tall with 2 8” woofers....what a joke! I see why everyone needs subs. If speaker manufacturers would build real floor speakers there would be no need for subs. Throw yours out and don’t look back.
“Yes, indeed. A great room is a lot more speaker friendly. You eliminate a number of issues related to room/sub/speaker integration here as well. I’m not saying they can’t be overcome, but that few do it well”
This is such a true statement. Unfortunately, many don’t have the opportunity to have a large room and/or able to construct with proper sound mitigation techniques. Life is full of compromises. Subs in smaller spaces tend to help to negate room mode anomalies if they are properly setup.
@russ69
Yes, for a 15hz Organ notes, subs for sure. I have not played any music in years that has any organ music so that is not an issue for me.
@fuzztone,
“It depends. How low does it go in the room? Have you checked for nodes? And what do ya listen to?”
I have measured in room response using dedicated subwoofer measuring software from Velodyne, Phonic PAA6 handheld audio analyzer, and the Rives Audio professional room measurement system. What all of these do for measuring the bass portion, is show a cool graph in which the owner of the room needs to analyze the data and taking those variables to add subtract bass absorbers, identify room modes, etc. For sure, people have work cut out it they know what they are doing.
@raysmtb1,
“When I got back into it after having a mountain bike accident and becoming paralyzed 2 years ago I was shocked at the lack of full sized speakers.”
Man, I sure hated reading that, but love that you got back into music. Music is the healing force of the world according to the song I Love Music by the OJays. Your right, there are not many large floor standers. Like the idea of throwing out the subs because they are not needed with large speakers with the ability to do deep bass naturally. My speakers go down to 20hz and feel like kicking them out and selling them for someone who really needs them because I don’t anymore.
@raysmtb1 - I hear you bro. Growing up ('60s - '70s), 12 inch woofers were the norm. I think they were ditched to sell more subwoofers and make shipping easier. Bad mistake in my book. Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Welcome back!
Not so fast. Just hang on to them for a bit. Sure, you have a sea change in LF, ok, good. Now, just wait a bit, then after you have had a nice long run with the new speakers, roll in the subs ever so slightly, very lightly. You'll see that actually, one can often not have enough 15" woofers.
I make systems with varying numbers of 15" woofers, from none, to one dozen. Yes, that's right, one dozen 15" woofers. There are fundamental things that happen with LOTS of cone surface that simply cannot happen with less cone surface. The sheer EASE of many big bass drivers is unparalleled, and I DO mean Unparalleled.
So, you have them paid for, sitting there; just put them off to the side for a bit, then do a bit of experimenting. Nothing much to lose, and potentially a lot to gain. No, using the subs with the new speakers will not be as perfectly clean in the LF, but it can be superior in several other aspects. You'll see, if you wish. It's all a carnival of changes.
The first thing that comes to mind is the LFE channel on movies. The subwoofers can be used for that. Even though I have "large" speaker settings for front and surround channels, my two subwoofers help even-out the low bass in LFE channel in the room.
That is some sage advice. I will definitely be using my newfound speaker system to the fullest.
I have read technical papers concerning multiple and large bass drivers to recreate an aura of sound. The only time in my life that I have experienced that aura of sound is when I heard the Infinity Reference Standard at the Rhein Mein Audio club in Germany. It had so much deep bass that a sign was posted next to the display for anyone with pacemakers not to get close to the speakers due to the deep infrasonic frequency it could attain at high volume levels.
To this day, I have heard many other speakers and subs, but none that recreated that aura I felt and heard with the Infinity IRS. Now, multiples of 15” woofers in the dozens would surely be something that can recreate an aura of sound. Would love to hear that someday.
I don't think I'll ever have a 2-channel system without subwoofers, regardless of how low my main speakers go down to. Properly integrated subwoofers can improve everything across the audio spectrum. When I turn my subwoofers off, the soundstage is smaller, spacing between instruments is reduced, and a sense of realism is lost.
Well, I’m of two minds. I agree with your statement, but ...
A full range, 3-way speaker in an ideal room can perform really well. The key here being "ideal room." That spaciousness we hear I think is in large part from Doppler distortion in the midrange. A 3-way speaker can eliminate this just as well as a sub.
The ability to EQ, and placing a sub in a location better than the satellites however is often a more pressing need for those of us who cannot afford custom builders.
Then there's the q about how the average music lover who has dabbled in audio get to "well integrated sub" that I always wrestle with. I've given up, I think the average listener should rely on a system like Dirac or Anthem's ARC or the various similar systems to do this for them.
I agree with this “I've given up, I think the average listener should rely on a system like Dirac or Anthem's ARC or the various similar systems to do this for them.” I have over the years gone from a zesty man to being someone who can barely walk. Long gone are the days of crawling on the floor to listen for bass nodes, LOL. The tools I listed above helped a lot, but as you stated, we are merely getting it partially right. Many many hours spent testing and measuring and moving stuff. If one were to use Dirac or ARC, or even lately, Legacy’s Wavelet, probably far better results would ensue. The room is a major contributing factor for sure to help obtain the best sound from ones system.
I ran Legacy Audio Focus 20/20s for a while (three 12" woofers per speaker) and at first I thought I didn't need to use my subs with them. I didn't "need" to, they produced a prodigious amount of bass on their own but adding 4 subs with an additional 4 15" drivers + 2 13.5" drivers and carefully blending them in, well... it was a completely different experience. Deeper, more immersive and effortless.
I ditched my Subs after getting a pair of KEF 105/3’s. Using a miniDSP to replicate the original Bass EQ curve and boost points from a Magazine article from 30 years ago. I was shocked how deep the Bass went into the 30Hz region in my room with no issues !
I have yet to hear a full range speaker with ‘passive’ bass woofers that can replicate the experience of a well integrated subwoofer.
An average user may have this notion that subwoofers are being added to simply extend bass response. IME, a well designed and integrated subwoofers (with your mains) provides a sense of scale and dynamics superior to any full range speakers on their own. A pair of subwoofers in a acoustically treated room (like mine) provides the most realistic and engaging musical fidelity that is simply unmistakable.
Unfortunately, the bass sections of many full-range speakers are dismal compared to a quality sub, both the drivers and cabinet sections. You’re getting into $10K/pair speakers before the bass sections will match the quality of even a $600 sub.
Then add the fact that with full range speakers, the amplifier is taxed with driving the bass woofers as well as the mids and tweeters. High-passing the mains and relieving their amp of the 3 lowest octaves has the same effect of doubling, maybe even tripling the amplifier power.
Also, there’s an advantage in being able to place the bass drivers somewhere other than the same plane as the mids and tweets. This is because the optimal room placement for the mids and highs is often a compromise for the bass freqs, due to their omnidirectional nature and long wavelengths. The downside to subs is of course integration with the mains. I find it’s much easier with a 4th-order, active crossover between the subs and mains amplifier, something similar to the JL CR-1.
”Unfortunately, the bass sections of many full-range speakers are dismal compared to a quality sub, both the drivers and cabinet sections. You’re getting into $10K/pair speakers before the bass sections will match the quality of even a $600 sub”
While we agree that many lower cost speakers lack uniform and deep bass and that subs certainly help in those cases, remember that large high efficient speakers mated with the proper equipment can excel in deep, fast, and accurate bass reproduction. That’s my point since I have speakers like that, I no longer feel the need for subs as my speakers, and others with similar technologies can play deep bass well enough without worrying about that last iota of bass...been there done that. It is not as simple as saying thou shall must have subs because...it’s a matter of the efficiency of the equation of the room, electronics, and speakers. That’s where I am at, an sufficient level of performance that negates the use of subs for my applications. But, as many have stated, subs are most likely needed if you can’t get the ingredients right.
While we agree that many lower cost speakers lack uniform and deep bass and that subs certainly help in those cases, remember that large high efficient speakers mated with the proper equipment can excel in deep, fast, and accurate bass reproduction. That’s my point since I have speakers like that, I no longer feel the need for subs as my speakers, and others with similar technologies can play deep bass well enough without worrying about that last iota of bass...been there done that. It is not as simple as saying thou shall must have subs because...it’s a matter of the efficiency of the equation of the room, electronics, and speakers. That’s where I am at, an sufficient level of performance that negates the use of subs for my applications. But, as many have stated, subs are most likely needed if you can’t get the ingredients right.
The problem with nearly all high-efficiency bass apparatuses is they lack extension. There may be some exceptions out there but I’m not aware of any non-custom speakers short of six figures that really fall into that category. Maybe some Tektons?? Wilsons are a good example of an otherwise efficient speaker (relatively good sensitivity) if not for the tough load of their bass woofers. Unfortunately, the excursion required for the lowest notes results in an inefficient driver, which is why many speaker designers choose to use active/powered bass systems. Speakers that extend to ~35Hz are often referred to as “full-range,” but they’re not really if we’re honest. I’m not saying they can’t be enjoyed without subs, only that they can still be enhanced with a well implemented sub. IME, the lowest two bass octaves do enhance the rest of the bandwidth for some reason, and can greatly improve sound-staging cues.
Your custom 400lb. behemoths are outliers, obviously.
There’s nothing wrong with living without subs if that’s one’s thing. I guess my point is that if someone is seeking full-range sound on a budget, it’s often better to get high-quality standmounts with stereo subs, as you end up with better quality bass sections than those found in some $10K/pair^ towers, and you also get true full-range extension (assuming a quality sub).
My stereo speakers have 3 pair of side mounted powered 8” woofers each that manage full range without the integration problems I had with subs. I even had a velodyne that came with a volume remote so I could adjust the sub level with the speakers level. I found my favorite sub setting was when I couldn’t hear it. They’re great for ht, but give me a pair of full range floorstanders for stereo any day.
When I decided to create separate home theatre and audio systems I built the system with full range floor standers with the intention of not having subwooofers.
Therefore I have a pair of Sonus farber Sonnetto Vs I use in my audio system. The decision for no subs is based on several considerations including space, budget and my younger days of listening to music before subwoofers were common.
And my results are I enjoy listening to music as much as I always have.
My mains use 18" woofers and are over 1000lbs ea and I still use my giant sub-bass horn from time to time. I will turn the massive near room sized sub off thinking I don't need it but later I find I do depends on music selections but when I need it I am glad it's there, nothing pressurizes a space like a giant sub-bass horn.
I've never felt the need for a sub with my IMF TLS-80's, which I got in the ...80's..., and still have. Anything newer seems to want a sub. This seems very much correlated to cabinet size! WAF and home theater seem to favor subs, and the low frequency effects of modern music and sound effects likes a sub, or two, or more.
I recently purchased Focal Kanta 3 floor standing speakers. For 2 channel stereo I don't find any need for a sub woofer. I do use it when watching movies since I use the same speakers for a 5.1 system just different amps. Room size might matter thou.
@raysmtb1 - "I think 12 inch woofers were ditched to sell more subwoofers and make shipping easier."
No. I think it was because materials at that time were not stiff enough to prevent cone distortion. I remember 15 inch drivers in guitar amps. Boy did they distort when used hard!
Now we have modern hi-tech materials that are piston stiff, we could go back to 12 inchers and move more air but no-one's thought of it yet.
I make systems with varying numbers of 15" woofers, from none, to one dozen. Yes, that's right, one dozen 15" woofers. There are fundamental things that happen with LOTS of cone surface that simply cannot happen with less cone surface. The sheer EASE of many big bass drivers is unparalleled, and I DO mean Unparalleled.
Absolutely agree. Which frequency region would you be using 15" woofers, predominantly? I find they're great in the very important "power region" in particular, i.e.: ~100-800Hz, and when high-passed no lower than 80-ish Hz to subs there's significantly added headroom, sense of ease and a cleaner (lower to central) midrange as well. My main speakers sport 2 x 15" parallel coupled high eff. woofers per cab playing from ~85 to almost 800Hz and run actively with no passive XO's. It's a sonic treat for sure.
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