Amp more important than speakers?

Back when I practically lived in "high end emporiums", we were "grooving mightily" to all ARC electronics and top of the line Thiel speakers, when someone came in who wanted to audition a Rotel amp. After the Rotel amp was inserted, with ARC pre and Thiel still in the lineup; the soundstage collapsed.

Hardly surprised. But if you kept the ARC components and swapped in a pair of Radio Shack speakers, the soundstage too would have collapsed. So this proves nothing other than a fool implementing an audio system for either instance.

Want to comment on Blindjim's post. I don't necessarily disagree with your front-end-is-most-important position, though I think I'd side with many here who suggest it's about all the pieces and how they sound together.

You suggest speakers don't factor into sound quality as much as they do bandwidth. That sound quality relies on the signal path. I would argue that better build quality in a more expensive speaker will lead to a better sounding speaker, as things such as resonances are dealt with. More expensive drivers will outperform cheaper ones, allowing the use of less intrusive crossovers. And on and on it goes...

To say that speakers do not manufacture a sound, they just allow it. And that they will exude what they receive and not change it. Personally I agree that the incoming signal must be of high quality, but speakers simply do have their own colorations. Get a high quality front end and play them through two different sets of speakers - the sound will almost surely change.

If the VR4 was simply an open window to what came before it in the chain, then surely it would not require the specific front end you heard that day in that second room. Instead, any well made front end should sound great with those speakers (assuming adequate specification matching). I think it must have been something with that front end and those speakers together that caught your ear. And who knows...probably the cabling and the room too. Just my two pennies.

Jafox, why not keep the ARC and throw away the speakers?

Jafox, why not keep the ARC and throw away the speakers?

Because the many ARC amps out there with their wimpy power supplies and output transformers might not be suitable with the speakers, e.g., SoundLab, Magnepan, Apogee, MBL, that I might ultimately decide for my system.

Fusion10

going speakers first, might lock a person into a particular camp and I see that as a sort of drawback.

if you grab a pr of panels because of how they image perhaps, then decide you want to try out an 8 watt 300b amp, it's speaker selling time!

Around here one can and will hear a lot of pros and cons for this or that approach to building a system.

some often contend speakers make the biggest impact on the sound of a stereo, versus some other item being replaced in that system.

IMHO, the jury is still out on that idea.

Exchange out your SS amp for a single triode amp... tell me that did not have a significant effect on the sound.

Replace your aV reciever you are using as a preamp with a $10K line stage tube preamp and then tell me it was a Ho hum exchange.

El toro mietae!

of course, if a system is not highly resolving, it matters very little what alterations are made, as they likely won't be detected.

You are as welcome to your opinion as are we all. Waht I posted is more or less what my exp has shown or proven outright to me. Repeatedly.

I think my first few sentences in my last post said
EVERYTHING MATTERS… ok.. There it is again.

A certain setup is exactly that … a certain, particular, unique setup. As much as you might try to duplicate a given configuration, it’s about impossible to do so, though you may come close, it won’t be a clone.

I also found out better front ends provide better results… even with more modest speakers. Period. Believe that or not, I don’t care. Big beautiful expensive speakers first devotees are simply in a pissing contest… showing off to some degree IMO. Especially IF they feel that investment alone or even predominately is going to give them a killer outfit without commensurate funds being injected upstream.

Ego… plays a fairly large part in this past time too… do remember that.

Speakers are what everyone sees… and many think… are the stereo itself! They are if nothing else, the icons of our hobby. They are the art. The majesty. The idols. The Venus de Milo’s of our arrangements. They are the signature of a system.

…but they aren’t predominately where the real majic is born. They just convey it to us. Hopefully with as little signature of their own as is possible.

Trust me, If I could afford a pr of Alexandrias, andrea IIis, Evidence, Stratovari, etc… I’d have ‘em!

‘Course, if I could afford the likes of them, my front end would be as well appointed.

I can’t.

I’m guessing who ever posted this thread is on the fence about which way to go, and has a fineite amount of bucks on hand to devote to the hobby and is wondering which way to jump.

I’ve been very very happy with the results of going from source to speakers in constructing a variety of stereo or AV rigs. Naturally, none are or were ever finished as quickly as they were begun. All received ongoing attention, updates, and upgrades as was my ability to do so. In that context, no system I’ve had or own now has ever been finished… all remain in a state of flux. Awaiting an injection of some new this or that… or some replacement.

Speakers are no different. Not in my world anyhow.

Although in different rooms, I’ve heard the same set of speakers fueled by differing front ends… naturally each sounded differently. Which one sounded best? That’s a subjective call I think.

And that is likely our bottom line… this rhetoric at best is purely subjective. There is no preappointed judge. No jury. No coromated king of sound that says “a stereo must sound like….”. Nope. None, but us.

It’s our call. Our money, and our mania. I’ve simply found a way that works for me that does not require me to invest a second mortgage or hock my first born for a pr of speakers.

In the final analysis, so long as each area of the system is addressed appropriately, or as best one can, the results should be just fine. If not, something was overlooked somewhere, or there is some mismatch in the outfit.

All roads lead to Culver city. How we get there is up to us… I’ve gotten there on my thumb, by car, plane, and bus. Now, I might just try by horseback, as this thread is once again, beating one to death as have so many before it.

It really doesn’t matter which end gets the most attention first, so long as all of them get attended to with the same level of devotion, or as one is able.

Why do you think it is called an audio "system"?

Look up the definition of a system.

How you get there does not matter as much as the end results, though there are still happy paths and not so happy paths.

A little experience and knowledge certainly helps also.

What in the blue hell more is there to say about this topic?

Blindjim, don't you see the inverse of your argument?

Another reason you should do speakers first is the fact that every speaker you purchase will be affected by the room you place them in; that's a fact! Most amps that I know of are not really impacted by the room dimensions or even the wall surfaces...

If your speaker does not integrate properly into the room, NO upstream electronics will correct the problems.

Listen to a wide variety of different types of speakers, horn loaded, panel, traditional box, sealed enclosure, ported enclosure, two-way monitors, ribbons, metal dome tweeter, silk domed, etc...find one that you enjoy and one that most meets the criteria that are important to you and buy it. Also confirm that it integrates appropriately with your room; if your room is 10 x 12 do not buy a set of KHorns, or a set of Wilson Alexandria 2's, or a set of Magnepan 20.1's....none of these speakers will work properly in a small room!

As time passes and you improve/upgrade your front-end electronics, your speakers will continually reward you with better sound and performance (assuming of course that you made an appropriate speaker choice!)

Stickman, for the most part I agree with you, but the size of a room can have a bearing on amplifier choices.

I agree, in the extreme amps are impacted by the size of the room and more obviously the speaker load/characteristics. You probably wouldn't go with a flea powered SET amp if your room was 25 x 35 for example, not unless of course your were using something like a KHorn which has a sensitivity of 104 db...even then, I would want more than a couple of watts...

My limited experience has been that very sensitive speakers seem to do best with lower or moderately powered amps, whether tube or SS. Tougher loads, like a Magnepan panel speaker are much happier with as much power as you can throw at them; think 500 watt SS or BIG tube amps..

I stand by my earlier points in this thread. To me it makes little sense to choose an amp first; ultimately the choice of speaker has the greatest impact on the overall tonality of the music, the type and condition of the sound stage, and the overall response you get in a particular room.

Find a speaker you like/love and then do some hunting until you can find the very best amp that matches well with the speaker (and its particular design characteristics) and one that is powerful enough to drive the speaker to acceptable sound pressure levels in your room.

Stickman451 nailed it. Good job.

Pay attention orifice10.

YEs, good job Stickman!

Speaker/room interactions and resulting sound are highly variable and not easy to predict until you try.

A room may also dictate a more powerful amp (or more efficient speakers) but that is a relationship that is more predictable and hence lower risk.

Always address your highest risk items first. That's a basic best practice of modern design that all good designers are familiar with.

When two people are rolling in the mud in the gutter; it's impossible to tell which one is the low life.

If you check the closest mirror orifice10, the answer will be crystal clear.

LOL

From my own experience I would rather own a 2000.00 pair of speakers with a 10k amp then the other way around. I am currently running a front-end setup including TT, phone-pre-pre and amp that cost 19k. The speakers cost around 6k. I was recently at a show where some of the speakers cost over 50k a pair. My modest system sounded better than most of these expensive systems. Audio is really about system matching than anything else. I haven't heard too many really expensive systems that sounded good. I have heard a lot of matched systems that sounded great.

Taters, it sounds like you have a match up that will give you the biggest bang for the buck. Only the "connoisseur's" of good sound realize that when it comes to speakers, "less is more"; meaning a simple design with high quality crossover and drivers.

The music is in the grooves and only a stellar well tuned rig can extract it. This means the bulk of the money has to be spent "upstream". Saying one can send "jive" to the worlds best speakers and they will translate it to music is "jive".

The music leaves the grooves, goes through the cartridge on to the pre and then to the amp. If it's "jive" before it gets to the speakers, it's going to be "jive" coming out of the speakers.

going speakers first, might lock a person into a particular camp and I see that as a sort of drawback.

if you grab a pr of panels because of how they image perhaps, then decide you want to try out an 8 watt 300b amp, it's speaker selling time!

Yes. But that is no different than buying an 8 watt amp and then deciding you want to buy Maggies. Now it's amp selling time! I think you were right when you said that everything matters. That's why it's amp selling time or speaker selling time - because the person was not forward thinking. If they were (and it's not always possible to be) then it would not matter what they bought first as long as they avoided things like big impedance mismatches.

Don't misread this, I certainly do not disagree one bit that the upstream components should be as good as you can get them. And yes, lower end speakers can sound great with higher end amps. But I think some lower end amps really do hit above their weight. Nait 5i, Exposure 2010s2, etc. These can be considered entry level but they definitely aren't bad. Same with their CD player counterparts. I guess your point would be if you go cheap on one part go cheap on the speakers and then try to upgrade those. Again, I'm not sure I'd disagree. Although, if you have resonance issues in a $500 speaker, that won't go away if you use a $20,000 front end. Nor will mismatches with the speaker and room. Surely if this is the case, a speaker change first is in order.

I guess I'm saying there aren't any hard and fast rules. You have to take each situation and evaluate it on it's own merits.

Stickman451 makes a good case for "speaker first" and Taters makes an equally compelling case for"amp first" approach. Come on guys either way can lead to satisfaction. What I don`t get are the insults toward those who don`t agree with the speaker first philosophy, we`re all grownups are`nt we?

It’s all been said … here and on other pages. And doubtless, will be said yet again… this hobby harbours worlds within worlds.

Reasonableness when selecting what ever item is the underlying understanding going into this mess. I seldom mention it. Not too many folks actually do. Some degree of common sense is prerequisite.

Well, that and a bucket of bucks.

Speakers should fit the room or vice versa.

Amps should fit the speakers, or vice versa.

Ever notice there seems to be a lot of vice in this versa.

You can light the wick on either end of this candle… some light both ends.

Which ever way one flips the coin so long as active relationships between those components that can physically interact with each other are given their due, eg., room & speakers, I doubt anyone is going into the ditch on amp selection unless they’re ignoring the speakers needs.

If however, some skimping is a ‘must’ along the way, speakers (within reason) is where I’d skin it back. Albeit, skimp is such a harsh word. Truth be told, I am sparing with my purchases all along the way, if I can. I simply hate paying the prices some folks want for this stuff… but eventually, I break down and do it…. If I feel it absolutely must happen. Following much trepidation, hesitation, research, wondering, worrying, and praying.

Praying predominately the carrier du jour handles with care whatever it is I buy… or sell.

That’s the biggest black hole to this hobby…. Shipping. It’s like riding a motor cycle… it ain’t a matter of ‘if’…. It’s a matter of ‘when’ it’s gonna get laid down, especially with those folks.

… it’s easier IMHO to ship in & out amps than it is full size floorstanding speakers every couple 3 months. So there’s that.

Gee.. I wish I were a ‘Can’ lover first and foremost. Ear buds and HP amps? Both Should fit right in the mail box.

It’s tuff to change your game plan when it’s worked well for ya over time.

My comments on going speakers first really have nothing to do with the relative cost of components; spend as much as you like and can afford!

Find a speaker that you really like and buy it. Then if you want to spend ten times as much (or more) on the front-end do that too. If you have made a good speaker choice then your efforts and $$$ on the front- end will reward you!

From my previous post on this particular forum. In my many many years at this, I have not experienced someone wanting to buy an amp, and then say, ok now, let me find speakers to match it. As a sales person and consultant during many of those years, I always directed customers to speakers first, based on characteristics they were looking for, and, the room they will be in. At that point, help them with an amp to drive them properly, for spl, impedence, tone, etc. During the upgrade process, this can be reversed. This happened to me when I transitioned to my 104 db speakers and found a smaller amp than what I was using. The larger amp did not have the detail, musicallity or even the "prat" that the smaller amp had. But again, it shows, for me anyway, speakers first. However, this in no way suggests that the amp is less important. I remember meeting Ivor T from Linn many many years ago, as he started with the source and worked his way from there. This too is a great approach, and in some ways made sense. My Linn LP12 set up through a japanese receiver and bookshelf speakers sounded more "real" than a cheap turntable through more expensive electronics and higher end loudspeakers. Ultimately, it is all a means to an end, just how to get there.

It's all important!!!

In my experience a moderately decent speaker can benefit from almost endless upgrades upstream. It surprises me how far you can go. A poor front end can only be exposed by great speakers. As long as the speakers are at an acceptable level and suit the room, spend heavily on the amp.

Picking the speaker first is not a good idea. Many people think it is, but then find out later that they are thus married to a certain kind of electronics to make that speaker work.

The fact of the matter is you have to do research. For example, if you prefer tubes, you can't just buy a speaker that you fell in love with and make it work if the speaker is incompatible with tubes. You'll be flushing money down the loo chasing *that* conundrum.

Amps and speakers have to be compatible. For example, I know someone that is a big fan the B&W 802. But that speaker is not designed to work with tubes, and this guy really likes tubes. He has bought amplifier after amplifier trying to make the 802s work. But the simple fact is that that speaker is designed to work with transistors- the amplifier has to be capable of constant voltage in order to play bass right. Now most tube amps don't make constant voltage and even though they are often much better than transistors in playing bass, in this case it simply won't work.

Another example: Sound Labs. Dick Olsher recently give them Best Sound at Show. If you fall in love with them, and you otherwise like to play transistor amps you will be having a very frustrating time- with transistors the speaker appears very power hungry and its hard to make them play bass and not sound really bright. It has to do with the impedance curve of the speaker- most 600 watt transistor amps will not make over 150 watts on that speaker.

The *match* between the amp and speaker is what you seek.

Wow! what a debate. It is great reading this and noticing the opinions of so many knowledgable people. Usually with my friends, they already have an audio system. Typically mid fi equipment and they want better sound quality. Where to begin. With an existing system, to me it totally depends on which component I could tell really is hurting the system most. with most, they don't have a ton of money to buy everything at once. So, one component at a time. They plan on upgrading everything eventually, but they must plan and save. So, sometimes items for sale come up that you really can't pass up. You may walk into a store and the salesperson may have used equipment or new and give you a price you simply can't walk away from for a really nice piece of equipment. Say for example, you have Yamaha or Sony mid fi system. Walk into a store and in the corner is a used Mark Levinson 23 or 23.5 and the owner wants $1000 for it. (I know, this would rarely happen, but...) I would imediately recommend that my friend grab this amp if it works. Or a really decent Audio Research amp or Martin Logan Request speakers. The point is, you never know what will fall into your lap or when. So, keep your eyes open and good friends near and grab what you can when it comes up. If your "buddy" told you to get speakers first and the amps or pre-amp comes up and you pass on it because you believed that you absolutely had to get the speakers first, then you missed a golden opportunity.

Ordinarily, I would tell my friend to get decent speakers first if they already had a mid fi system and then upgrade the electonics accordingly afterwards. One piece at a time. But, as I mentioned previously, sometimes, you can't look a gift horse in the mouth. Grab it if it presents itself to you. But first, establish a sound quality you want and a resulting price point and stay within that price point. There is always something better out there and most Audiogoner's will acknowledge that there is better equipment out there than what they have. There are better cars, houses, audio equipment, etc. You have to know your limits on price and what resulting sound quality you would like.

I ask my friends those three questions. 1) what audio quality do you really want? 2) Do you sit and listen to music or do you use it as background music? and 3) what is your budget? Then, knowing that most of my friends don't have an unlimited budget, I recommend that they upgrade one component at a time. Speakers first, better source component second (cd player or transport and dac), then pre-amp next and amp. Then we play with cables along the way. The next thing I recommend is that they buy very good used equipment instead of new. Because they can purchase very good to outstanding used equipment for the same price as newer but lesser equipment typically.

good discussion and debate.

enjoy

If you fall in love with a speaker, then find an amp to match it.

There are no rules it must be a tube amplifier. Unless you manufacture tube amplifiers.

Speakers first.

There are no rules it must be a tube amplifier.

Audiofeil, I am sure you are aware that there are many people who don't agree with you on this. That is why the tube industry continues to exist 50 years after being declared 'obsolete'. However, we do agree that the amp must match the speaker.

>>07-01-11: Atmasphere
Audiofeil, I am sure you are aware that there are many people who don't agree with you.<<

Agreed and many who do agree with me.

My point is there are no rules that it must be a tube amplifier.

The market clearly supports my point.

I think the room/speaker interaction has to be addressed first and foremost. Some speakers work better in certain types of rooms or some designs are better for small rooms ect..I was always trying to fix my system with new gear. I could take that same stuff and drop it into my bedroom system and it sounded WAY better. I could put cheaper speaker and electonics in the bedroom and it sounded way better than my higher priced stuff in my main system. The room acoustics in my bedroom are just that much better than my main listening room. So there was nothing wrong with my speakers or electronics becuase they worked so well in another room. It just goes to show how important addressing the room. Otherwise you can drop different speakers and electronics in and really not get any closer to goals for the kind of sound you want. Just my 2 cents.

It should be possible to match any good speakers to tube amps. If it is not then those speakers are either junk or designed for a very particular application.
As a sidenote. Someone who likes both tubes and B&W is..well..unusual individual.
Yes, of course it's the synergy. We are all in agreement here.

>>07-01-11: Inna
It should be possible to match any good speakers to tube amps. If it is not then those speakers are either junk......<<

So how about those 1 ohm Apogee Scintillas?

:-)

It should be possible to match any good speakers to tube amps. If it is not then those speakers are either junk or designed for a very particular application.

Now the person who made that comment must be...

If your speaker doesn't interact at least reasonably well with your room, then what real difference does one amp make over another. If the chosen speaker doesn't work well with tube amps, then so what?

I think it is very true that the potential of very good speakers can only be realized with very good (not necessarily very expensive} amplification and sources, but the OP almost makes it sound like Harbeth HL5s are mid-fi speakers. They are actually pretty expensive. (but very good)

If the room is acoustically okay and not too big any good speaker will interact reasonably well with it. Interaction with some audiophiles' brains however is a totally different story. Especially if they have transistors instead of neurons.

Interaction with some audiophiles' brains however is a totally different story. Especially if they have transistors instead of neurons.

ROTHFLMAO

If solid state people have transistors, then what's in the brains of tube people? A vacuum?

Seriously, Inna your last post reduced the interaction between a speaker and a room to one sentence and the result is only reasonably well performance. I can see where a sense of humor would be helpful in situations like that.

I guess after all these years, and many systems and components later, I have a somewhat different philosophy from most of what is expressed here about what should "come first." If the goal is to buld a decent system, then that is exactly what should be the initial goal, i.e. a sensible and audibly pleasing balanced selection between source components, amplification and speakers. No matter how good or desireable the speakers, at the outset, if the source is found to be lacking, then no matter what amplification and cabling, the speakers will not provide all the musical resolution and depth they are capable of. Conversely, a great source and amplifier feeding mediocre speakers are also unlikely to provide the complete potential of the system. This is why it should be all about the SYSTEM (as I have harped more than once on this forum over the years). It's about the system and it's about component balance. So, yes, it could be speakers first, like, throw $15K into Vandersteen 5A (latest version) speakers (and please, don't say these aren't decent speakers) and then feed them a cheap CD player and big box, inexpensive HT receiver with the goal of sometime upgrading the upstream components. While there may be initial happniness, there will eventually be disatisfaction along the way and the owner may end up blaming the speakers (hey, be nice!). A better balance would be to select 2C Sigs or 3As and use the remaining money for an equivalent quality CD player and amp that could also function for the time when funds for the 5A upgrade are available, and the upstream components will be satisfactory until such time as upstream components can also be upgraded. In the end, it should be about balance, not what comes first. Upgrading is a necessarily (possible fun) evil of this pasttime, hobby, passion, endeavour, addiction, life altering force...

Who's on First?

When I sold gear years ago in a well known at the time higher end audio chain, and it was still common to sell complete systems in one shot for the customer's budget we were all taught to help the customer find the right speakers first, then the amp, then the rest.

In the beginning, I too had a speaker fixation. I was most attracted to a speaker with a bright orange 12 inch woofer; it had "big bad bass". Every weekend, me and a friend would visit stores and listen to the speakers.I remember, "I got some new speakers, come over and check em out". After I arrived, "Dig that bass"! Everything in the house was vibrating like a mini earthquake. "We were cookin"!

When I got into the high-end, I discovered there was a world of music on the LP's I owned that I had never heard. "What's a 3 dimensional sound stage"? That's something that can not exist without the right pre and amp. When you get this, you also get the subtle musical nuances that go with it.

Although I haven't changed speakers in ages, the sound in my room has gone through revolutionary changes. My speakers are described on a thread I began titled, "Trade off, SS VS Tube Magic", dated 08-18-10. On the post dated 08-20-10, you will find an explicit description of my custom speakers. This might give you ideas on upgrading your present speakers by simply replacing the capacitors in the crossover. The amps I'm using at present are Primaluna 6 monoblocks. The tubes are Tung-sol EL34 power tubes, NOS RCA 12AU7 Cleartop and 12AX7 Shuguang small tubes. These tubes make a gigantic difference as opposed to the tubes that came with the unit.

This new amp and tubes have given me a sound stage like I have never heard before, or should I say "Never seen before". There are invisible performers on a stage that spreads completely across the room. The Stage is 7 feet behind the speakers, which appear to be useless pieces of furniture. The performers take their positions and the sound consistently emanates from those positions.

The original premise of this thread was not whether to buy the speakers or amp first, or last; it was based on placing the emphasis on the amp and the front end, as opposed to the speakers in regard to financial resources. I concur 100% with this philosophy. Those with unlimited resources could design a room and then purchase components to fit, while the rest of us have to make numerous compromises.

Definitely a good idea to avoid underpowered amps, but even that is determined by the speakers.

I think if more people used amps powerful enough to bring out the best with the speakers they have, they would get off the speaker merry go round faster.

But again this is just another example of the importance of having a good match. It doesn't make the amp more important than the speaker.

Amps is an especially dear piece of equipment to audiophiles. Anyone can have excellent speakers and digital, but really great and well-matched amps is our territory.

My point is there are no rules that it must be a tube amplifier.

The market clearly supports my point.

Audiofeil, Well said by one who sells both tubes and transistors.

Both of us point to the market to support our positions.

In the end, it is the user who makes the rules (not you and not me), and if their rules say 'no transistor amps' (perhaps because they don't care for the sound of transistors) then the speaker must match. You make an excellent example of the Apogee- not the best load for a tube amp. So in this case, no matter how much one loves that speaker, it will be an exercise in frustration if the match between the speaker and the amp was not sought first.

Interesting comments by the 'amp' first camp, but unfortunately they are completely mistaken. As was said earlier, the speaker and the manner in which in interacts or integrates into the acoustic space is first and foremost. If that interface is flawed, then there is NO AMP on the planet that will correct the situation...

Analyze your room, it's dimensions, it's construction, and review the surface types of the floors, walls, and ceiling. Then, try a variety of speaker types, keeping in mind that you will not fill a huge room with sound using a mini-monitor, nor can your ears handle a monster box speaker in a small acoustic space...get the right speaker for your room taking into account the 'sound' you like...then, and only then, you can find an amp that works well. The speaker choice will in fact drive or move you towards a certain type or category of amplifiers...you won't use 500 Pass Labs mono-blocks if your speaker has a sensitivity of 100db and you won't use a 300B stereo amp on a pair of Magnepan 3.7's

No one`s completely wrong. If a person decided he wants to try an SET,lower powered OTL or say a First Watt type amp, they would then just find an efficient speaker(there`s quite a few) to match the amp of choice. Let`s not make things artificially complicated.

Right. It is not too complicated unless someone wants to find the best match there is. Then this someone is in trouble.

Inna,
?

Charles1dad, That is exactly what I did, no prior experience or auditioning. Worked like a charm.
Inna, I chalk it up to beginners luck.

because he/she will never find it

NOW THAT IS WRONG! There are a PLETHORA of combinations available, that provide excellent musical reproduction, and satisfaction. The key is making educated decisions/choices, in ones equipment purchases.