Amp more important than speakers?

For the last 50 years or so there's been the tubes/transistors debate. I really do wonder how that can be and speakers more important than the amplifier given how willing people are to debate that topic. If you don't like tubes, you'll get a solid state amp, right? And vice versa.


One thing is sure: if the amp isn't bringing home the bacon, there's no way the speaker will make up for it.

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about amps? It's starting to look like a page out of Speaker Builder magazine.

Just looked at the TE Model 1. 
Interesting,,but not same as my 
WB8+WB4

Its my understanding no one, as far as I know,,has come up with this pairing..Unless you can find a  link to show me anyone else who has paired a  8+4 wide band.
I am the 1st.
Its in my ancestral genes to tinker and expolre outside the box.
Have to thank my tech geek for stirring up my wondering  and searching.
In many ways he also is a  original.
He builds, designs amps, 
Waiting on his emails now, about my new latest design. 
I told him to shout out to the new orleans audiophile community about my new *Holy Grail* speaker design.  

keithtexas316 posts10-10-2021 12:32pm4" wideband and 8" wideband reminds me of the Tom Evans Model 1 from 2013?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Evans was on to something,,,yet he did not know it. 
The only way to intergrate a  8+$ is if both are of near equal midrange.
1st we start with the 8,, get that right 1st,, then we find a  sutiable 4..
 a 6 won't fly,,, too much mid...a  4 is perfection.
Both have to be 
10/10 
on midrange,
Either dual DL's or Dual TB's.
Can't mix the 2.
TB 2145+ TB2141 = perfection.
But I'ma  DL kind of guy
DLVX8+ DL4 
btw the seller just wrote, the 4 is not avalaible due to a  EU supplier of that tiny 3 inch yellow paper mix cone,, not avaliable.
IMHO the TB2145+TB2141, near same fidelity.
Tom Evans wasa  genius. 
That guy had it right. 
I made the discovery by sheer luck,,it was weeks away from being shipped to a relative over seas, and would never see thae DL4 ever again.

One day, the thought occured,, the yellow6 did not blend/mesh/intergrated,,,but what about the 4 sitting 6 months on my shelf....worth a  shot,,ain't gonna cost me anything...hate to give itt away ....BINGO...
Diana Krall 's poetic magic now just oouzesss out the speaker system.
Finally hit on high fidelity.
Had my tech geek not stood at the door with a  unimpressed look on his face after the new Mundorf xover upgrade to the Thors...I'd never have embarked on this WBer + xover speaker journey...//there's an old saying


seek and you will find...if you dobn't seek, you;'ll never ever  find....
Speakers are everything in a  system.
amps are a  dime a  dozen. 

4" wideband and 8" wideband reminds me of the Tom Evans Model 1 from 2013?

Reminds me of something we Porsche driving instructors used to say: The most important part of a car is the nut behind the wheel.

No, you are the nut.

I am the arch heretic philistine 
The Iconoclast
Smasher of the Stone Tablets. 
Temple destroyer.
A new day is dawning, a  new true approach to high fidelity for the 21st C audiophile.

mofimadness4,690 posts06-25-2011 2:35pmI'm from the speaker first camp. Find what you really like the sound of and build up from there, around the speaker.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With  the new addition of a  4 inch wide band paired witha  8 inch wide band, has  caused me to RE-Calculate my system component equation.
Amplification 10%
source  8%
Wires/cables 2%
Thats leaves the rest of the equation to The speakers at a  wopping 80%
Yep you read correctly, 80%,,might as well  join my mantra
**speakers are everything.
And I'm being generous with 10% amp 8% source.
Speakers are The Critical Component. 
In my experience a  tube amp = a  tube amp
SETs and PP are near equal(minus the 300 B tube which are meant for Tele industry)
Source = source(Phono has a slight advantage)
Speaker = speaker,,...each is completely different from the next.
All xover types are near equal = yes true
All stats/panels near equal = agree
All horns similiar = agree
All wide bands near equal = false. 

Stickman451 says it all.

I dont agree that poor room/speaker synergy is beyond improvement from a better or different amplifier in all cases. The classic example that comes to mind is a booming sound from larger speakers in a small room. It surprises people that a more powerful amp with better bass control can often completely eliminate this problem.

This thread made the statement that the amp was more important in regard to financial resources, or quality as in Class A, B, or C; although it was not stated in that precise manner. Nowhere is the sequence of purchase mentioned. "You talking about a trolley jumping the tracks", this is the best example yet. Why didn't youse guys start a thread titled "Buy speakers first"?

Either course will can/will be successful if one makes educated decisions/choices, in ones equipment purchases, as I said earlier. None of us are trying to launch a rocket to the moon, or perform brain surgery, here. Just to satisfy our ears and minds. Some have much higher standards than others, but the goal is still the same, and very attainable.

Stickman451, sorry, speaker choice without taking the amp into consideration will lead to expensive mistakes. If you think otherwise you will be a great resource to your local dealer.

NOW THAT IS WRONG! There are a PLETHORA of combinations available, that provide excellent musical reproduction, and satisfaction. The key is making educated decisions/choices, in ones equipment purchases.

because he/she will never find it

Charles1dad, That is exactly what I did, no prior experience or auditioning. Worked like a charm.
Inna, I chalk it up to beginners luck.

Inna,
?

Right. It is not too complicated unless someone wants to find the best match there is. Then this someone is in trouble.

No one`s completely wrong. If a person decided he wants to try an SET,lower powered OTL or say a First Watt type amp, they would then just find an efficient speaker(there`s quite a few) to match the amp of choice. Let`s not make things artificially complicated.

Interesting comments by the 'amp' first camp, but unfortunately they are completely mistaken. As was said earlier, the speaker and the manner in which in interacts or integrates into the acoustic space is first and foremost. If that interface is flawed, then there is NO AMP on the planet that will correct the situation...

Analyze your room, it's dimensions, it's construction, and review the surface types of the floors, walls, and ceiling. Then, try a variety of speaker types, keeping in mind that you will not fill a huge room with sound using a mini-monitor, nor can your ears handle a monster box speaker in a small acoustic space...get the right speaker for your room taking into account the 'sound' you like...then, and only then, you can find an amp that works well. The speaker choice will in fact drive or move you towards a certain type or category of amplifiers...you won't use 500 Pass Labs mono-blocks if your speaker has a sensitivity of 100db and you won't use a 300B stereo amp on a pair of Magnepan 3.7's

My point is there are no rules that it must be a tube amplifier.

The market clearly supports my point.

Audiofeil, Well said by one who sells both tubes and transistors.

Both of us point to the market to support our positions.

In the end, it is the user who makes the rules (not you and not me), and if their rules say 'no transistor amps' (perhaps because they don't care for the sound of transistors) then the speaker must match. You make an excellent example of the Apogee- not the best load for a tube amp. So in this case, no matter how much one loves that speaker, it will be an exercise in frustration if the match between the speaker and the amp was not sought first.

Amps is an especially dear piece of equipment to audiophiles. Anyone can have excellent speakers and digital, but really great and well-matched amps is our territory.

Definitely a good idea to avoid underpowered amps, but even that is determined by the speakers.

I think if more people used amps powerful enough to bring out the best with the speakers they have, they would get off the speaker merry go round faster.

But again this is just another example of the importance of having a good match. It doesn't make the amp more important than the speaker.

In the beginning, I too had a speaker fixation. I was most attracted to a speaker with a bright orange 12 inch woofer; it had "big bad bass". Every weekend, me and a friend would visit stores and listen to the speakers.I remember, "I got some new speakers, come over and check em out". After I arrived, "Dig that bass"! Everything in the house was vibrating like a mini earthquake. "We were cookin"!

When I got into the high-end, I discovered there was a world of music on the LP's I owned that I had never heard. "What's a 3 dimensional sound stage"? That's something that can not exist without the right pre and amp. When you get this, you also get the subtle musical nuances that go with it.

Although I haven't changed speakers in ages, the sound in my room has gone through revolutionary changes. My speakers are described on a thread I began titled, "Trade off, SS VS Tube Magic", dated 08-18-10. On the post dated 08-20-10, you will find an explicit description of my custom speakers. This might give you ideas on upgrading your present speakers by simply replacing the capacitors in the crossover. The amps I'm using at present are Primaluna 6 monoblocks. The tubes are Tung-sol EL34 power tubes, NOS RCA 12AU7 Cleartop and 12AX7 Shuguang small tubes. These tubes make a gigantic difference as opposed to the tubes that came with the unit.

This new amp and tubes have given me a sound stage like I have never heard before, or should I say "Never seen before". There are invisible performers on a stage that spreads completely across the room. The Stage is 7 feet behind the speakers, which appear to be useless pieces of furniture. The performers take their positions and the sound consistently emanates from those positions.

The original premise of this thread was not whether to buy the speakers or amp first, or last; it was based on placing the emphasis on the amp and the front end, as opposed to the speakers in regard to financial resources. I concur 100% with this philosophy. Those with unlimited resources could design a room and then purchase components to fit, while the rest of us have to make numerous compromises.

When I sold gear years ago in a well known at the time higher end audio chain, and it was still common to sell complete systems in one shot for the customer's budget we were all taught to help the customer find the right speakers first, then the amp, then the rest.

Who's on First?

I guess after all these years, and many systems and components later, I have a somewhat different philosophy from most of what is expressed here about what should "come first." If the goal is to buld a decent system, then that is exactly what should be the initial goal, i.e. a sensible and audibly pleasing balanced selection between source components, amplification and speakers. No matter how good or desireable the speakers, at the outset, if the source is found to be lacking, then no matter what amplification and cabling, the speakers will not provide all the musical resolution and depth they are capable of. Conversely, a great source and amplifier feeding mediocre speakers are also unlikely to provide the complete potential of the system. This is why it should be all about the SYSTEM (as I have harped more than once on this forum over the years). It's about the system and it's about component balance. So, yes, it could be speakers first, like, throw $15K into Vandersteen 5A (latest version) speakers (and please, don't say these aren't decent speakers) and then feed them a cheap CD player and big box, inexpensive HT receiver with the goal of sometime upgrading the upstream components. While there may be initial happniness, there will eventually be disatisfaction along the way and the owner may end up blaming the speakers (hey, be nice!). A better balance would be to select 2C Sigs or 3As and use the remaining money for an equivalent quality CD player and amp that could also function for the time when funds for the 5A upgrade are available, and the upstream components will be satisfactory until such time as upstream components can also be upgraded. In the end, it should be about balance, not what comes first. Upgrading is a necessarily (possible fun) evil of this pasttime, hobby, passion, endeavour, addiction, life altering force...

If solid state people have transistors, then what's in the brains of tube people? A vacuum?

Seriously, Inna your last post reduced the interaction between a speaker and a room to one sentence and the result is only reasonably well performance. I can see where a sense of humor would be helpful in situations like that.

Interaction with some audiophiles' brains however is a totally different story. Especially if they have transistors instead of neurons.

ROTHFLMAO

If the room is acoustically okay and not too big any good speaker will interact reasonably well with it. Interaction with some audiophiles' brains however is a totally different story. Especially if they have transistors instead of neurons.

I think it is very true that the potential of very good speakers can only be realized with very good (not necessarily very expensive} amplification and sources, but the OP almost makes it sound like Harbeth HL5s are mid-fi speakers. They are actually pretty expensive. (but very good)

It should be possible to match any good speakers to tube amps. If it is not then those speakers are either junk or designed for a very particular application.

Now the person who made that comment must be...

If your speaker doesn't interact at least reasonably well with your room, then what real difference does one amp make over another. If the chosen speaker doesn't work well with tube amps, then so what?

>>07-01-11: Inna
It should be possible to match any good speakers to tube amps. If it is not then those speakers are either junk......<<

So how about those 1 ohm Apogee Scintillas?

:-)

It should be possible to match any good speakers to tube amps. If it is not then those speakers are either junk or designed for a very particular application.
As a sidenote. Someone who likes both tubes and B&W is..well..unusual individual.
Yes, of course it's the synergy. We are all in agreement here.

I think the room/speaker interaction has to be addressed first and foremost. Some speakers work better in certain types of rooms or some designs are better for small rooms ect..I was always trying to fix my system with new gear. I could take that same stuff and drop it into my bedroom system and it sounded WAY better. I could put cheaper speaker and electonics in the bedroom and it sounded way better than my higher priced stuff in my main system. The room acoustics in my bedroom are just that much better than my main listening room. So there was nothing wrong with my speakers or electronics becuase they worked so well in another room. It just goes to show how important addressing the room. Otherwise you can drop different speakers and electronics in and really not get any closer to goals for the kind of sound you want. Just my 2 cents.

>>07-01-11: Atmasphere
Audiofeil, I am sure you are aware that there are many people who don't agree with you.<<

Agreed and many who do agree with me.

My point is there are no rules that it must be a tube amplifier.

The market clearly supports my point.

There are no rules it must be a tube amplifier.

Audiofeil, I am sure you are aware that there are many people who don't agree with you on this. That is why the tube industry continues to exist 50 years after being declared 'obsolete'. However, we do agree that the amp must match the speaker.

If you fall in love with a speaker, then find an amp to match it.

There are no rules it must be a tube amplifier. Unless you manufacture tube amplifiers.

Speakers first.

Wow! what a debate. It is great reading this and noticing the opinions of so many knowledgable people. Usually with my friends, they already have an audio system. Typically mid fi equipment and they want better sound quality. Where to begin. With an existing system, to me it totally depends on which component I could tell really is hurting the system most. with most, they don't have a ton of money to buy everything at once. So, one component at a time. They plan on upgrading everything eventually, but they must plan and save. So, sometimes items for sale come up that you really can't pass up. You may walk into a store and the salesperson may have used equipment or new and give you a price you simply can't walk away from for a really nice piece of equipment. Say for example, you have Yamaha or Sony mid fi system. Walk into a store and in the corner is a used Mark Levinson 23 or 23.5 and the owner wants $1000 for it. (I know, this would rarely happen, but...) I would imediately recommend that my friend grab this amp if it works. Or a really decent Audio Research amp or Martin Logan Request speakers. The point is, you never know what will fall into your lap or when. So, keep your eyes open and good friends near and grab what you can when it comes up. If your "buddy" told you to get speakers first and the amps or pre-amp comes up and you pass on it because you believed that you absolutely had to get the speakers first, then you missed a golden opportunity.

Ordinarily, I would tell my friend to get decent speakers first if they already had a mid fi system and then upgrade the electonics accordingly afterwards. One piece at a time. But, as I mentioned previously, sometimes, you can't look a gift horse in the mouth. Grab it if it presents itself to you. But first, establish a sound quality you want and a resulting price point and stay within that price point. There is always something better out there and most Audiogoner's will acknowledge that there is better equipment out there than what they have. There are better cars, houses, audio equipment, etc. You have to know your limits on price and what resulting sound quality you would like.

I ask my friends those three questions. 1) what audio quality do you really want? 2) Do you sit and listen to music or do you use it as background music? and 3) what is your budget? Then, knowing that most of my friends don't have an unlimited budget, I recommend that they upgrade one component at a time. Speakers first, better source component second (cd player or transport and dac), then pre-amp next and amp. Then we play with cables along the way. The next thing I recommend is that they buy very good used equipment instead of new. Because they can purchase very good to outstanding used equipment for the same price as newer but lesser equipment typically.

good discussion and debate.

enjoy

Picking the speaker first is not a good idea. Many people think it is, but then find out later that they are thus married to a certain kind of electronics to make that speaker work.

The fact of the matter is you have to do research. For example, if you prefer tubes, you can't just buy a speaker that you fell in love with and make it work if the speaker is incompatible with tubes. You'll be flushing money down the loo chasing *that* conundrum.

Amps and speakers have to be compatible. For example, I know someone that is a big fan the B&W 802. But that speaker is not designed to work with tubes, and this guy really likes tubes. He has bought amplifier after amplifier trying to make the 802s work. But the simple fact is that that speaker is designed to work with transistors- the amplifier has to be capable of constant voltage in order to play bass right. Now most tube amps don't make constant voltage and even though they are often much better than transistors in playing bass, in this case it simply won't work.

Another example: Sound Labs. Dick Olsher recently give them Best Sound at Show. If you fall in love with them, and you otherwise like to play transistor amps you will be having a very frustrating time- with transistors the speaker appears very power hungry and its hard to make them play bass and not sound really bright. It has to do with the impedance curve of the speaker- most 600 watt transistor amps will not make over 150 watts on that speaker.

The *match* between the amp and speaker is what you seek.

In my experience a moderately decent speaker can benefit from almost endless upgrades upstream. It surprises me how far you can go. A poor front end can only be exposed by great speakers. As long as the speakers are at an acceptable level and suit the room, spend heavily on the amp.

It's all important!!!

From my previous post on this particular forum. In my many many years at this, I have not experienced someone wanting to buy an amp, and then say, ok now, let me find speakers to match it. As a sales person and consultant during many of those years, I always directed customers to speakers first, based on characteristics they were looking for, and, the room they will be in. At that point, help them with an amp to drive them properly, for spl, impedence, tone, etc. During the upgrade process, this can be reversed. This happened to me when I transitioned to my 104 db speakers and found a smaller amp than what I was using. The larger amp did not have the detail, musicallity or even the "prat" that the smaller amp had. But again, it shows, for me anyway, speakers first. However, this in no way suggests that the amp is less important. I remember meeting Ivor T from Linn many many years ago, as he started with the source and worked his way from there. This too is a great approach, and in some ways made sense. My Linn LP12 set up through a japanese receiver and bookshelf speakers sounded more "real" than a cheap turntable through more expensive electronics and higher end loudspeakers. Ultimately, it is all a means to an end, just how to get there.

My comments on going speakers first really have nothing to do with the relative cost of components; spend as much as you like and can afford!

Find a speaker that you really like and buy it. Then if you want to spend ten times as much (or more) on the front-end do that too. If you have made a good speaker choice then your efforts and $$$ on the front- end will reward you!

It’s all been said … here and on other pages. And doubtless, will be said yet again… this hobby harbours worlds within worlds.

Reasonableness when selecting what ever item is the underlying understanding going into this mess. I seldom mention it. Not too many folks actually do. Some degree of common sense is prerequisite.

Well, that and a bucket of bucks.

Speakers should fit the room or vice versa.

Amps should fit the speakers, or vice versa.

Ever notice there seems to be a lot of vice in this versa.

You can light the wick on either end of this candle… some light both ends.

Which ever way one flips the coin so long as active relationships between those components that can physically interact with each other are given their due, eg., room & speakers, I doubt anyone is going into the ditch on amp selection unless they’re ignoring the speakers needs.

If however, some skimping is a ‘must’ along the way, speakers (within reason) is where I’d skin it back. Albeit, skimp is such a harsh word. Truth be told, I am sparing with my purchases all along the way, if I can. I simply hate paying the prices some folks want for this stuff… but eventually, I break down and do it…. If I feel it absolutely must happen. Following much trepidation, hesitation, research, wondering, worrying, and praying.

Praying predominately the carrier du jour handles with care whatever it is I buy… or sell.

That’s the biggest black hole to this hobby…. Shipping. It’s like riding a motor cycle… it ain’t a matter of ‘if’…. It’s a matter of ‘when’ it’s gonna get laid down, especially with those folks.

… it’s easier IMHO to ship in & out amps than it is full size floorstanding speakers every couple 3 months. So there’s that.

Gee.. I wish I were a ‘Can’ lover first and foremost. Ear buds and HP amps? Both Should fit right in the mail box.

It’s tuff to change your game plan when it’s worked well for ya over time.

Stickman451 makes a good case for "speaker first" and Taters makes an equally compelling case for"amp first" approach. Come on guys either way can lead to satisfaction. What I don`t get are the insults toward those who don`t agree with the speaker first philosophy, we`re all grownups are`nt we?

going speakers first, might lock a person into a particular camp and I see that as a sort of drawback.

if you grab a pr of panels because of how they image perhaps, then decide you want to try out an 8 watt 300b amp, it's speaker selling time!

Yes. But that is no different than buying an 8 watt amp and then deciding you want to buy Maggies. Now it's amp selling time! I think you were right when you said that everything matters. That's why it's amp selling time or speaker selling time - because the person was not forward thinking. If they were (and it's not always possible to be) then it would not matter what they bought first as long as they avoided things like big impedance mismatches.

Don't misread this, I certainly do not disagree one bit that the upstream components should be as good as you can get them. And yes, lower end speakers can sound great with higher end amps. But I think some lower end amps really do hit above their weight. Nait 5i, Exposure 2010s2, etc. These can be considered entry level but they definitely aren't bad. Same with their CD player counterparts. I guess your point would be if you go cheap on one part go cheap on the speakers and then try to upgrade those. Again, I'm not sure I'd disagree. Although, if you have resonance issues in a $500 speaker, that won't go away if you use a $20,000 front end. Nor will mismatches with the speaker and room. Surely if this is the case, a speaker change first is in order.

I guess I'm saying there aren't any hard and fast rules. You have to take each situation and evaluate it on it's own merits.

Taters, it sounds like you have a match up that will give you the biggest bang for the buck. Only the "connoisseur's" of good sound realize that when it comes to speakers, "less is more"; meaning a simple design with high quality crossover and drivers.

The music is in the grooves and only a stellar well tuned rig can extract it. This means the bulk of the money has to be spent "upstream". Saying one can send "jive" to the worlds best speakers and they will translate it to music is "jive".

The music leaves the grooves, goes through the cartridge on to the pre and then to the amp. If it's "jive" before it gets to the speakers, it's going to be "jive" coming out of the speakers.

From my own experience I would rather own a 2000.00 pair of speakers with a 10k amp then the other way around. I am currently running a front-end setup including TT, phone-pre-pre and amp that cost 19k. The speakers cost around 6k. I was recently at a show where some of the speakers cost over 50k a pair. My modest system sounded better than most of these expensive systems. Audio is really about system matching than anything else. I haven't heard too many really expensive systems that sounded good. I have heard a lot of matched systems that sounded great.