Let me start by saying I like watching Amir from ASR, so please let’s not get harsh or the thread will be deleted. Many times, Amir has noted that when we’re inserting a new component in our system, our brains go into (to paraphrase) “analytical mode” and we start hearing imaginary improvements. He has reiterated this many times, saying that when he switched to an expensive cable he heard improvements, but when he switched back to the cheap one, he also heard improvements because the brain switches from “music enjoyment mode” to “analytical mode.” Following this logic, which I agree with, wouldn’t blind testing, or any A/B testing be compromised because our brains are always in analytical mode and therefore feeding us inaccurate data? Seems to me you need to relax for a few hours at least and listen to a variety of music before your brain can accurately assess whether something is an actual improvement. Perhaps A/B testing is a strawman argument, because the human brain is not a spectrum analyzer. We are too affected by our biases to come up with any valid data. Maybe.
And speaking of correlation, that is a big bugaboo. Correlating test equipment is the biggest pain ever. The question is; how can two piece of test equipment, both being calibrated give two different measurements for the same part? The answer is yes. That's it. Yes. So the old saying goes; "a man with two watches is never sure what time it is." A lot of time and effort spent over the years getting test equipment in two or more locations to correlate.
Then we talk about subjective evaluations and the results will be all over the map. Subjective evaluation is often used where measurements cannot give a complete picture. We do it all the time in the audio world and I'm sure that most if not all audio equipment manufacturers do subjective testing as well. A jury must be trained to listen for specific characteristics and typically receive very specific guidelines detailing how to rate a component or system. In my experience, the environment is closely controlled and the subjective evaluations are repeated by the panel several times over a few days. Our moods and previous environmental exposure can affect the results. So we Audiophiles are typically self taught in the art of listening. These forums and articles can provide instruction as well. I'm not saying I'm a great expert at subjective listening. I'm in my mid 60s now and recently I was at the Tampa Audio Expo with my son who is 31. He could hear things in the various rooms that I just could not pick up. And based on that I am telling myself now that I really need not spend so much on upgrades these days. I have hit my limit of hearing. But I have no doubt that others can hear differences that make sense to upgrade. I have a 45 year history of that.
You quote me then i want to be understood clearly...
"Gear tasting brand name subjective fetichists" or " Measuring tool alleged Objective fetichist" focus, the two warring groups, on the GEAR PIECE ...They are gear obsessed...
One group trust ONLY their ears, the other group trust ONLY the numbers they look for...
The two group recognize the existence of acoustic and psycho-acoustic science for sure and give it a lip service for sure but my point is the two groups COMPLETELY UNDERESTIMATE the huge impact of acoustic treatment and especially of acoustic mechanical control of SMALLROOM and also of mechanical vibration control of the system and electrical noise floor level control of the house... The goal being AT THE END how to reach the best S.Q./price ratio ...
They war each other ignoring that the only important factor in audio is not measured numbers alone or ears ALONE but their ongoing CORRELATION...
Then i am not a "deluded audiophile" like your avatar name suggest i may be, and i am not an Amir disciple either...
I used my EARS to tune my room by myself with a rigourous step by step process where location, reverberation time, timing, intensity sound level, time delay differential between each ears from each speakers etc play a major role..
In this process ears listenings and objective measures and objective measures ratio between the mechanical device parts are CORRELATED one with another to make the tuning process a succeess... i made it at NO COST by myself with only homemade devices...
I hope to be counted in NONE of these two groups, but for sure i dont dismiss ears training like one of this group systematically do...
Wow, another self proclaimed expert. Spectrum and frequency analyzers do need to be calibrated. Since I was an Engineering Manager for several years with one of my responsibilities being test equipment design, calibration and repair in a major Aerospace Company I know that first hand. All test equipment should be traceable back to the Bureau of Standards or NIST for serious test work or analysis. Nitpick over the name if you like. And guess what- equipment loses its calibration. Protocols were required to deal with product previously tested on equipment found to be out of calibration by more than a certain amount.
I use my iPhone or iPad apps to measure things but I treat is as comparative data, not absolute and I always qualify that as reference only.
@tonywinga, there has not been a Bureau of Standards for almost 35 years. Bringing this up shows you don’t have any experience in calibration or measurements which is likely why you were "abused". Other than absolute gain, what exactly do you think a NIST traceable calibration would be on an audio tester? A large portion of the test gear for what I do is not NIST traceable for calibration. Why? NIST does not have any standard remotely applicable. It’s fine for basic things like current, voltage, weight, thickness, etc. but not for complex measurements that either don’t have a standard or are defined by other technical bodies.
This is why I don’t post often in audio forums. Conversations just end up as pages of whining because 1/2 the world does not believe what I believe and I am offended that they will not stop. What is worse, people will make things up to support their argument.
Take this piece below. This is so factually incorrect that I wonder if the author even visited the site? I don’t go to ASR often either, as most of their threads end up as technical fights about things I don't care about, but when I was planning my room, I asked a lot of acoustic questions there and I can state without reserve, that most there would never discount acoustics and would abuse you if you said acoustics did not matter.
Their common point is a total ignborance of acoustic condition because they need electrical tools they dont need to tune a room... All rooms are equal for their activities....
I said it pages ago, this will be just whining until one side proves to the other they are right, but I am beginning to think people would prefer to whine instead of trying to reach a conclusion. Even if either side conclusively proved the other wrong, I am not sure they would accept the outcome.
I watched one of his videos a year ago. He tested some expensive speaker cables and dismissed them as comparing no different to lamp cord. His followers seem to eat these types of videos up. I challenged his conclusions with first, was his analyzer calibrated and traceable back to the Bureau of Standards. His answer was no, and that calibration is not necessary since it was a new piece of equipment.. Anyone who publishes data with uncalibrated equipment is immediately suspect. Secondly, anyone who publishes data without the information needed to duplicate the testing makes the data meaningless.
That was as far as I got before getting endless abuse from his followers so I moved on. He tends to test everything with his new (last year) analyzer. To someone with a hammer everything looks like a nail.
They are many pompuous very clever but closed minds ignoring anything resembling a listening experiments but Amir was polite...There are good people also there listen me right but they are dominated by a minority of bullys protecting the master...They are easy to recognized, some come here ridiculizing anyone who listen with his ears... Their common point is a total ignborance of acoustic condition because they need electrical tools they dont need to tune a room... All rooms are equal for their activities....
I am a naive person generally and i trust people to a point...
I quited this reunion of disciples also...After they laugh a lot about my "quartz/shungite experiments... 😁😊
Sheeps crowd are not for me...
Here sheeps exist too but most people LISTEN...With ears...
I don’t even consider them disciples. They’re more like henchman. Don’t get me wrong, I respect moderators but one of Amir’s moderators was also trashing the same product in their ASR forum. I asked him if he’d ever even heard it himself and he admitted in the forum that he hadn’t. When I questioned that, his attitude was basically....I don’t need to hear it. It measures bad and that’s enough. They’re obviously flogging people with their own agenda. That’s when I banned myself from that forum. They literally don’t listen to gear. Also, why is Amir using $400 speakers to judge products?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying one can’t enjoy music with even a pocket radio. I’m merely saying that if Amir is going to listen to audible differences of some good quality gear, at least use a good set of speakers with proper efficiency. He’s telling others they’ll need higher efficiency speakers for the product he was reviewing but he didn’t apply that himself.
You must use the same system and not only the same music...
And it is not enough at all...
We are USED to acoustic very precise conditions in a ROOM, our room, which by far affect the sound quality more than each piece of gear UNBEKNOWNST to most people because they dont pay attention to acoustic...
Comical....
No one own "golden ears" but we all own our listening ability BECAUSE of our hearing HISTORY circonstances and IN some KNOWN ENVIRONMENT WITH our specific audio system...Buy an acoustic book and forgot blind testing fetichists...Learn how to tune a room and you will spare money...
Only ignorant people in acoustic and psycho-acoustic imagine that people pretend to have "golden ears"... Save some reviewers in audio magazine another kind of fetichists who vouch more about gear than acoustic science also...They need golden ears to sell... I dont sell anything, i need my ordinary ears to LEARN and be acoustically creative...
My normal ears deetect any change in my room condition even a straw introduced in the room in some location why?
Buy an acoustic book and read about Helmholtz resonators and you will know...No need to have alleged "golden ears" at all.. these accusation against people come from ignorant people...The gear reviewer tasting fetichist is ignorant like the meaasuring tool fetichist... The two groups IGNORE acoustic learning experiments...
Quit those fools measauring noise with a tool to decide if a dac is good without any listening controlled acoustical experiments to compare them after this "measuring" feast ...
If you want to blind test everything, it must be in your room acoustic condition with your system and a music you know by heart..but it will be a lost of time and IMPRACTICAL...
How do you think i was able to optimize and tune mechanically 100 Helmholtz tubes generators and diffusers one at a time ?
Golden ears my a....
Blindtest my a....
The reason is my listening learning history of EXPERIMENTS in my room with my system and my music...
Do you imagine that a piano tuner must use blindtest to tune a piano?
😁😊
Acoustic ignorance is the ONLY audiophiles or pseudo-scientist measuring fetichists COMMON problem ...
Easy to verify...
if you are a "clear thinker" i am sure you can figure all that by yourself...How is it not the case already?
You read too much about gear and blind test... Not enough about acoustic and psycho-acoustic ESPECIALLY..
Is it easy to figure out ? NO
You need to be a real clear thinker...It takes me 2 years alone , much time but at no cost...
my 500 bucks system give me ALL acoustic factors: natural timbre, dynamic, clearbass, 3-D soundscape filling the room, depth imaging, listener envelopment/sound source wodth ratio or LV/ASW ratio, intimacy like with headphones superior to me 8 headphones with a sound out of my head AROUND me... I am in some recording AMONG the musician on the scene...
500 bucks system few bucks dac, vintage amplifier a very good one and good speakers paid 50 bucks... Is it the best system there is? Not at all half people here own a better one...but it work in OPTIMIZED acoustic condition...I am not envious of ANY superior system why?
Because there is a TRESHOLD of acoustic qualities, a MINIMAL threashold from which you are HAPPY even if better system exist.. Why?
Because your ratio S.Q. / price is OVER THE ROOF...
Is it not clear?
is it not good?
Thanks to acoustic and psycho-acousatic BASIC elementary knoweledge...
I dont boast about my gear here, i never did, it is relatively only basic very well chosen gear ,i dont even name it here...
I thanks acoustic science nothing else..
SIMPLE SOLUTION: PLAY THEM A PIECE OF MUSIC THEY DO KNOW.
Blind testing is nothing to do with measuring. There are no measurements involved.
Claims by an individual to hear a difference are only valid as opinions of that individual. Not only could he be wrong, he could be knowingly lying. Such claims can only be validated by blind testing. This proposition is so simple and so obvious that it does not need six pages of debate here.
"So, playing a piece of music the subjects don’t know on a system that is not like their own and asking them to compare that sample to a slightly changed subsequent sample is a waste of time, not a universal truth. Most of us have several pieces of music/performances/albums that we know intimately. If the benchmark used is one of those on our systems (or an equivalent one), then comparative testing has validity, but only then."
SIMPLE SOLUTION: PLAY THEM A PIECE OF MUSIC THEY DO KNOW.
Blind testing is nothing to do with measuring. There are no measurements involved.
Claims by an individual to hear a difference are only valid as opinions of that individual. Not only could he be wrong, he could be knowingly lying. Such claims can only be validated by blind testing. This proposition is so simple and so obvious that it does not need six pages of debate here.
In a recent test Amir 'beheaded' a product (i.e. lowest rating) because it had an unacceptable 0.003% distortion. Can anyone can hear 0.003% distortion, are any speakers possible of even 0.03% distortion? What about 0.3% distortion? I have since listened and bought the product, it sounds wonderful, several others agree, the measurements have spoken, but what do they mean?
But from the beginning of this thread this look like if not truth at least a possibility..
Then the master has created his disciples crowd and it is not the disciples who are at the evangile distorted origin : only measures means anything...Throw ears, golden one, or Karajan ears or mine in a dust bin...
Anyway it does not take a genius to know that measures alone dont equate to a good sound when you add mutiple components together...
.
I’m okay with measurements used in proper context but I don’t respect Amir any longer because he clearly and obviously evades answering important questions. He simply ignores matching components during his reviews which misleads many others who don’t know any better. He’s closed minded as far as I’m concerned. They’re really an extremist bunch.
I’m okay with measurements used in proper context but I don’t respect Amir any longer because he clearly and obviously evades answering important questions. He simply ignores matching components during his reviews which misleads many others who don’t know any better. He’s closed minded as far as I’m concerned. They’re really an extremist bunch.
It is this part of the brain attention mechanism focused on habit analysis and details on his MAP versus this working part of the brain focused on the large unknown TERRITORY AROUND us and which attention is encompassing the whole around us...
This writer is important :
In Goethe less diplomatic words it was the poet against the philistines...
And remember that Goethe was one of the most important natural scientist of his time with Darwin ...
There is a thing about basic mental construction in people. Two basic camps in how minds center, flow and function.
One way we tend to think about it is liberal vs conservative
The next set of descriptors could be optimistic vs pessimistic
the next set of descriptors could be lateral vs linear
The next set of descriptors could be open vs closed
The next set of descriptors could be explorative vs negative proofing
The next set could be adventurous vs safe and traditional
The next set of descriptors could be consciousness awareness vs unconscious living
Or, Jungian vs Freudian
Or... Agnostic/Atheist vs religious
Or, the inventors, the bringers of the new.... vs the rote repeat book plodders, as the two basic ways to move through life.
Thinking types vs virtue signalers.
Chaos vs order.
Most folks are a variant/mix of some of each, all mixed up in their mental and physical tum-tum-tummy. Basic patterns of behavior and mindfulness tend to emerge and be the more potent or visible contributor of their essence, that others may witness.
We need both to exist, we need chaos moved into some form of order, but the extremes of either is death for all of humanity.
Thus we cannot, at this time, exist within the idea of a future, without the strong contribution of each.
An important point, is that the lateral, the liberal, the adventurous, and the chaotic, are more expressed in high intelligence than in a given more mundane intelligence. More options can give a more cavalier thinking process about basic safety perceptions in overall factors in life.
At the same time we cannot say that conservative behavior is a full indicator of intelligence (even though it is a factor), but that creativity has some weighing in the equation. Conservative types can be highly intelligent, it is just that it is a different form of expression of intelligence.
Creatives, for the most part, can’t live without their manifold acts of expression. Literally.
Where the conservative types can’t exist without beating such behavior down. Literally.
One way to think of ASR is as one of closed thinking, book thinking, rote thinking, safe thinking, judgemental thinking, factual thinking.
Which is fine, until you realize that too much of it, will literally kill the future into a static nothingness with no real openness of capacity or intent, direction, or capacity to deal with new challenges. Ultimately.... a closed dead system. As the clash said, ’And there is no future in England’s dreaming’
Where the conservative types, unwillingly (as they don’t want it with just as much life force as the creatives fundamentally must exist their own way), forcefully.. make it work, so it’s stable and has form. Conservatives are 100% necessary to ensure that the now has a form.. and we can then stand in some filled out form of a space, exist in context and reflection... and reach for a new future.
Overall, the answer is that this clash with ASR is fundamental and inescapable. As long as humans exist as they do, this schism will exist.
The issues come when creatives, who are generally, via a life lived..are aware of this, to some extent, and thus find themselves having to constantly remind the conservative types that this ’extremism’ if you will, is required to exist. Required. 100% necessary. As the closed mind, the book learning as life expression, the negative proofing of the conservative mind -resists the intrusion with all of it’s life force.
So the creatives are the ones who get to be hung on the cross.
Yes, sometimes he listens. Sometimes he doesn’t. At random, I pulled up this review. There’s no mention at all about how it sounds, but it earns a hearty recommendation just the same:
"The Gustard X16 comes in an unassuming package making you think you have bought a mid-priced DAC. But looks are deceiving as it produces some of the best measurements I have seen out of some 350+ DACs I have tested! Talk about getting ready to battle with the best of the best. Yes, there is a hint of ESS IMD Hump but it is not excessive enough for me to worry about it although I hope they look at eliminating this.
It is my pleasure to strongly recommend the Gustard X16 MQA DAC."
An audiophile switch, in my case the Etheregen, transformed my digital playback to the point where it became easy to listen to with almost every recording, in an analog way that I like to refer to as creamy.
Really? How do you know it's the switch?
While I believe one could measure the jitter reduction of the unit, if I were to measure the audio output of my DAC, I don’t believe the change would show up on an audio spectrum or waveform, or be measurable at all!
Think about this statement ? If it doesn't show up on the output of a DAC, in other words if the DAC shows the same measurement with or without this switch then what exactly is the switch doing that the DAC can't take care of?
You can make all the subjective untested wonders of these various devices you like, I'll just file them with all the other subjective untested wonders produced by dubious devices.
wrote "exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose"
An audiophile switch, in my case the Etheregen, transformed my digital playback to the point where it became easy to listen to with almost every recording, in an analog way that I like to refer to as creamy.
While I believe one could measure the jitter reduction of the unit, if I were to measure the audio output of my DAC, I don’t believe the change would show up on an audio spectrum or waveform, or be measurable at all!
I look at measurements as an afterthought and a guide to support what I might be hearing sonically, if I’m interested in a product.
I’ve posted previously Bascome King saying the best measuring amp he ever tested didn’t sound good.
The Etheregen was designed by John Swenson one of the top guys in the commercial switch industry, and took over two years to design and has advanced engineering and galvanic isolation.
I don’t get get - people who consider themselves audiophiles, but who seem to have their ears closed. If a product or tweak doesn’t benefit your system, that fine. It’s worthwhile reading people’s findings. But how can you claim that it isn’t benefitting my system and my listening experience?
According to this thread, Amir has some shady practices. If you scroll down to post 10 or 11 Skem Yuno talks about a DAC that AMIR used for 21 years until he finally measure it and then decided to dump it. That is very weird if you ask me. So, just because it measures badly all the sudden it’s a bad DAC? That’s pretty laughable. So, all he doing is taking measurements and according to him, if something measure bad that means the product is bad and if it measure good that means a product is good. It’s like the guy has not common sense.
He also misleads people in the way that he never seems to share what gear he’s using during his listening tests, so you have no way of knowing he’s matching products properly. He apparently used a pair of Infinity R253’s to evaluate a Dynaco VTA ST-70. Is this guy serious?
There are price points in every hobby, I'm glad there are $50 DAC's all the way up to $150,000 DAC's. Just because there are expensive audio equipment doesn't mean you have to buy it.
For you it is " subjective gear fetichists audiophiles" against "objective tool measuring fetichists pseudo scientist" ?
For me it is more SERIOUSLY acoustic/psycho-acoustic method who always correlated measures of ALL KIND, to subjective impressions...These 2 groups war is RIDICULOUS.... But at least one use his ears even if they succomb sometimes alas! to gear marketing ploy...
The danger posed to beginners here by ignorant technocrats advocating their tools of choices is not less disastrous than the danger posed by those who has been conditioned by marketting tasting gear audiophiles...
Between these two sleepwalkers warring groups, only acoustic and psycho-acoustic research is serious science ABOUT SOUND perception and the value of perception over electrical chosen sheets numbers only...Standard electronic design verification is good, but sound experience does not emerge only from a good chip...
Sound is not the result of an electronic design first and last, but of acoustic and psycho-acoustic experience first and last ..The gear convey information not sound experience...
Spewing numbers without correlation to listenings experiments is meaningless...
I dont attack Amir verification of products, i attack some of his sleepwalking zealots who haunted audiophile threads mocking anyone using his ears.... At least subjective audiophiles, even if they dont use acoustic and psycho acoustic experiments dont throw their EARS in a garbage bin...
The main science in music and sound is acoustic and psycho-acoustic... Digital engineering profitted and emerged from acoustic and psycho-acoustic research and cannot replace them by bits and numbers on a dial....Listening experiments protocols, not necessarily and ONLY blind one are the key...I dont need blind test in my room tuning because it is NOT PRACTICAL nor useful...
Some posts here amount to "why can’t we just go on letting young audiophiles be duped by manufacturer and dubious audiophile claims like the rest of us?"
Some of the claims in high end audio are a balloon, ASR is the pin, and some people see their own beliefs being burst and don’t like that feeling.
What a load of nonsense. Amir has no agenda. There are a wide variety of people who participate on the ASR forum from subjective tube amp users to nothing but the highest measurement users. I take that back there is an agenda exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose . Get over yourselves and yeah, hopefully younger people getting into this hobby will have a bit of common sense and see BS $20K DACs and $10K cables for what they are jewelry.
So true. The amount of nonsense, strawmen and misunderstanding spewed about ASR could fill libraries at this point.
Some posts here amount to "why can't we just go on letting young audiophiles be duped by manufacturer and dubious audiophile claims like the rest of us?"
Some of the claims in high end audio are a balloon, ASR is the pin, and some people see their own beliefs being burst and don't like that feeling.
Then yes Amir, is interested by measuring gear, but the site is more than that...
The problem is not Amirm but some audiophiles fanatic disciples indeed here and there...
The first chief hobbyist is OK, nothing bad to say, but the bunch of disciples create a void around their guru ...
This is YOUR words:
What a load of nonsense. Amir has no agenda.
If you read my posts you will understand that borrowing INCONSCIOUSLY about an ideological position is NOT HAVING necessarily AN AGENDA... I just call Amir a measuring tool hobbyist chief, he is a digital engineer after all who worked at an important position at Google i think, entertaining what he like most for the PLEASURE of doing what he know already and giving his advices...This is OK...And useful...But Amir is not Google and corporation had agendas, in the case of Google, transhumanist agenda...Promoting google agenda is being a sleepwalker...
Some of his sleepwalking disciples like you are less innocent...They created a fanatical movement around him, instead of thinking by themselves...this is a sad agenda...
Your sleepwalking " agenda" here in this thread seems to be distorting post and presenting NO ARGUMENT to mine , my 2 posts here are supposed to be just "nonsense"...prove it answer them...I made many points in these 2 posts...For example a point about the meaning of acoustic/psycho-acoustic science in audio being more important than simple direct electronical measures of the gear In itself...
Is it not a strawman argument of the worst kind by you which illustrate my point about the sleepwalking disciples: ?
What a load of nonsense. Amir has no agenda. There are a wide variety of people who participate on the ASR forum from subjective tube amp users to nothing but the highest measurement users. I take that back there is an agenda exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose . Get over yourselves and yeah, hopefully younger people getting into this hobby will have a bit of common sense and see BS $20K DACs and $10K cables for what they are jewelry.
The reason why A.I.will stay a mere "tool" forever, save on the planet where people could be so stupid to renounce their creative freedom for a master , and for sure this possibility exist, the reason then is : MEANING...
Meaning exist when the part is intricate in the whole and the whole completely intricate in the part, It is possible for the human mind to DISTINGUISH between the whole and the parts, but the human mind never SEPARATE them completely.... He can forget one for the other for sure...One part of the brain can work OVER the other... 😁😊 But forgetfulness is not complete separation...
A.I. is powerful because it can work in a CONTROLLED environment where it can mathematically distinguish parts and wholes BY SEPARATING THEM mathematically ...The map become the territory here and the territory can be transformed in a perfect map... Why not, it is only mathematical play ?
A.I. is and will be a tool, but an unhabited machine haunted by a ghost or a soul for sure, and anyway the sorcer apprentices will call them mere ghosts... Concrete details we dont need on the map, or a map so real it lack only some abstract useless details...Like love, freedon, souls, beauty, non logical truth, etc...
Yuval Noah Harari, a transhumanist historian said that human have no souls nor freedom and can be hacked by A.I. and will be...
Then we can be intelligent like he is and blind to meaning and reduce meaning to INFORMATION....I prefer to stay "stupid" than this kind of "intelligence"...
The whole and parts mutual participation are manifested "meaning" for the human mind able to "fly over " the world hyper space and perceive instantaneously qualitative experiences where the distinctions can exist but WITHOUT ANY COMPLETE SEPARATION EVER... Exist only for us humans a temporary forgetfulness of the relation between the encompassing whole and parts, this forgetfulness , the Buddha and the Christ called it back to his roots anyway...
The body is the soul, but the soul is not reducible to the body....The sound is the music but music is not reducible to sound...We can distinguish the two but cannot separate them...
An information engine can work only by SEPARATING body and soul, one is real for a machine the other is only an animated ghost it put in a corner...It is a MATHEMATICAL EXORCISM ....Very precise one and it work completely and successfully...
Technology is powerful but only small mind confuse science with technology...
The center of mathematic is divine, the peripheral is human work....
«Distinguish without separate » Anonymus Smith
«Distinguishing without separating i will name it the poetical mode of language and thinking, the contemplative one, the creative one, the other, distinguishing for separate is the mechanical and prosaic daily mode»-anonymus thinker
«We need the two ends of a stick and the stick itself, is it not three ?»-Groucho Marx
It would be fantastic if it did, but my guess is that the human ear is needed to detect the benefit of your product
Astounding!
Who believe that the only main factor in sound/music experience is measured electronical sheets ? Suggesting that ears experience in audio is useless is beyond preposterous...
What we hear in a speakers/room system is determined by acoustic and psycho-acoustic science ...It is determined by the rigourous relation between the resonant body of a sound source, a speakers set or a musical instrument, and the CORRELATIVE subjective impressions of a musician, a listener; or for example the ears/brain experience of a customer of a watermelon fruit sellers on an open market tapping it to let know to the customer if the fruit is in a state before being ripe or after being ripe...The human ears can INTERPRET with sound experience the QUALITIES pertaining to a distant object or an invisible hidden object ijn the dark...
Only ignorant people think that a mere part of a frequencies bandwidth in a piece of gear measuring well is ENOUGH to define what is "sound" and what is "sound experience"...Actual science cannot read a large spectrum and decipher it like the ears/brain do in a second and declared that a piano is such and such, or this violin such and such, or this room is acoustically such and such......Or this fruit is such and such after percussion , or this metal bowl of such quality after percussing it and let him vibrate for the ears.....Instrumental TIMBRE is not REDUCIBLE to a spectrum ONLY..
It is the reason why i quit reading this technocratic pseudo science hobbyist site ... The first chief hobbyist is OK, nothing bad to say, but the bunch of disciples create a void around their guru ...
I use my ears .... Any piece of gear must be listened to to be picked by me and judged ... A child may know why.... A technocrat like Amir can ignore why by profession, especially a digital designer... But an acoustician use his ears in a controlled room to adress the alleged quality of his stereo system BECAUSE he is a scientist specialized in the "sound field" studies...
The ears dont need "bits" after all and they dont hear "bits" anyway...Stereo gear system MAY need "Bits" to be TRANSLATED for sure...
Us we hear this acoustic and psycho-acoustic TRANSLATION...A Dac can REPRODUCE "a sound" by Fourier discovery about waves ...But the speakers/ears translate them to the human ear/brain like an acoustic musical instrument does instead of speakers, and the ears/brain INTERPRET QUALITATIVELY this acoustic language coming from the concrete resonant body, speakers or violin, he interpret them in music or speech and attribute them some qualities...
Sound is way more complex phenomenon than mere "waves"....If not, psycho-acoustic will never exist to begin with....Acoustic dont explain sound and music WITHOUT psycho-acoustic studies... Perhaps there is more about the ears than mere "bits"...And the brain is NOT a mere Fourier analyser... We dont understand what is sound, mastering technology, being it nuclear bomb or digital technology dont prove that we understand quantum mechanics meaning and the universe no more than this explain sound perception...
«I dont need this bit of music, "bits" are enough»- Anonymus digital engineer
Here’s a perfect example. Teo Audio is truly innovating in the world of audio reproduction. But does your cable show measurable results of what it does?
It would be fantastic if it did, but my guess is that the human ear is needed to detect the benefit of your product, and it must be in an appropriate level system. Would you send them of your cables for “review?”. My guess is not. It would be like sending a Ferrari to a car review site whose criteria is gas mileage (but who can’t seem to consistently measure milage correctly, or worse proclaiming the Ferrari is inferior to the yugo, since it “tested” better.
I beg to differ that the “amateur with an analyzer” site is doing a service, because he makes errors that manufacturers point out.
There are actual, ethical, knowledgeable people doing tech testing that serves the community. Take this guy for instance, that many in the high end video monitor world respect, even the professional color grading forum I participate in mentions his reviews. https://www.hdtvtest.co.uk
He has no agenda, unlike the amateur being discussed, who sells cheap gear.
Audio and musical experience are LEARNED experience by the ears/brain, in this transhumanist world, human ears are obsolete...
My guess is, right at this moment, there is a group of people, mostly young people, who are just getting into the hobby. They have to base their purchase decision on something, anything, and since 1) they have no clue what sounds good or not so good (remember, they are just getting started with the hobby), and 2) visiting a local dealer is so 20th century, even where they still exist, they turn to the internet. And in the absence of actual listening, and most importantly, lack of good vs. bad sound perception / experience, they turn to…. you guessed it: numbers. Stuff you can read and see (I.e graphs) in the internet. They are just being rational, nothing to blame them for. That’s where Amir M. comes in play, along with his militia disciples. It helps that what he preaches is cheap, typically China cheap. Everyone wants to save a dime here and there, yours truly included. I am not blaming anyone for trying to save money.
Thus popularity of ASR, and even other (caricature of) sites like Gene’s site. Amir M., like it or not, is winning this “war”. A very sound and effective marketing strategy for the cheap China toys he peddles. It is most definitely working.
My guess is, right at this moment, there is a group of people, mostly young people, who are just getting into the hobby. They have to base their purchase decision on something, anything, and since 1) they have no clue what sounds good or not so good (remember, they are just getting started with the hobby), and 2) visiting a local dealer is so 20th century, even where they still exist, they turn to the internet. And in the absence of actual listening, and most importantly, lack of good vs. bad sound perception / experience, they turn to…. you guessed it: numbers. Stuff you can read and see (I.e graphs) in the internet. They are just being rational, nothing to blame them for. That’s where Amir M. comes in play, along with his militia disciples. It helps that what he preaches is cheap, typically China cheap. Everyone wants to save a dime here and there, yours truly included. I am not blaming anyone for trying to save money.
Thus popularity of ASR, and even other (caricature of) sites like Gene’s site. Amir M., like it or not, is winning this “war”. A very sound and effective marketing strategy for the cheap China toys he peddles. It is most definitely working.
I use to like Amir’s channel but not as much nowadays now that I’ve spent more time actually listening to gear he’s criticized just because of some data. He recently tested a piece of gear I’ve really enjoyed listening to for years and still do and his review made it out to be terrible. That was when I realized there was something wrong with his reviews. Amir is just a data guy and that’s about it. He’s obviously not a good listener and I wouldn’t trust his listening opinion on gear. He doesn’t present things logically and takes data too literally. There are things that can still sound good even if they don’t measure well. I’m actually surprised he hasn’t had a lawsuit pinned against his practices or at least as far as I know.
Ha, ha! But if only it were that simple with ASR. The fact is that he sometimes doesn’t listen at all. So what’s the point?
Many audiophiles listen to their gear ... 😁😊
They can listen for example a 100,000 dollars dac....
Some others measures the specs sheet anew to verify... So what?
Are they listening really?
I myself listen myself, listening the universe in my head/room...And i control the conditions of the acoustic experience but not the experience....
«Sound is a powerful river harnessed by a dam (musical instrument and/or room) which give rise to a huge energy level called emotion »-Anonymus estheticican
«Remember that if sound could be music, music is not sound»-Anonymus deaf musician, probably Beethoven.... 😊
The goal in audio is the creation/translation of this music/sound from one acoustical context, which is the RELATIVE perspective of the recording process on a lived event, to be translated in the psycho-acoustic geography of your room which is also a relative acoustic and esthetic perspective from and on the recording event ....
Japanese people invent a word for this, it is a central concept of their esthetic: YUGEN...
We can make a garden with stones and sand like japan master did with chosen proportion and measures ( exact one) which will CORRELATE with the original perception of the garden creator for exemple but will never be reducible to a set of measures and words by definition...
Focusing on gear or on tool, is fetichism at worst , at best a necessary preliminary to the central and essential esthetic and scientific acoustic/psycho-acoustic experience...
I provided a link to one scientific study that showed how people her differently. And this study (my guess) assumes that the ears they tested are created exactly the same. But we know that every human has a different finger print. So that is not even in this study. You get my point, I hope.
Great point for sure! Thanks...
We must LEARN to listen...
We must learn it if possible in a treated and controlled room...
The premice that all ears are equal and overpowered by tools is ridiculously false...
The ceiling of a room is less a limit than something who qualitatively shape my enclosure, the 20,000 hertz limit for example is also less a limit of my hearing than something AMONG OTHER ACOUSTIC FACTORS which define my qualitative soundscape...We cannot reduce sound qualtative information to ONLY measure in Hertz...
Anybody can detect if a resonant sphere is dense or empty inside by his sound WITHOUT any need to measure it or see it... Timbre perception is not reducible to ONE spectrum only... A blind can cycle among traffic without crashing in a car... Etc...
Yes, your $1,000 USB cable is very cool, but admit that there isn’t any scientific evidence that it sounds audibly better than Amazon’s $5 cable.
I provided a link to one scientific study that showed how people her differently. And this study (my guess) assumes that the ears they tested are created exactly the same. But we know that every human has a different finger print. So that is not even in this study. You get my point, I hope.
I am not saying that you have to purchase a $$$$$ cable to hear a difference between that one and a $ cable. All you need to do is listen. You can purchase 2 cables in the same price range - and if one is constructed pretty good, while the other is a bad one, there are chances that you will be able to hear a difference. Of course, if you cannot hear the differences between various components like amps, DACs, etc then it will not make sense to you. You are better served with measurements and not listening. My idea of this hobby is to "listen and find out" and not "measure and find out". In my books it's an insult to your senses when you have to rely on someone's measurement to tell you what "might" sound good rather than trusting your own senses.
...another link where someone pointed out the differences in the gear Amir uses for testing and what John Atkinson uses. It’s multiples of times more expensive and exacting, showing anomalies that Amir’s tester can’t.
Atkinson & Co. also have another advantage over ASR: he and his team actually listen to what they measure.
No biggie. I wish I could find another link where someone pointed out the differences in the gear Amir uses for testing and what John Atkinson uses. It's multiples of times more expensive and exacting, showing anomalies that Amir's tester can't.
The more I read about ASR the funnier that little site, its self appointed guru and his minions become.
I recently read a thread where a piece of equipment was reviewed and the "guru" claimed he did not have enough time to listen to it. Then there is a post on FB where the poster met a youtuber who claimed "synergy" does not exist. Really? Try matching speakers with an amp not suited to them. Guess who the you tuber was? Seriously this site is a joke. I wonder how little the "guru" actually really knows. Very little in my opinion.
As for generously measuring equipment, be aware that Amir asks for donations from the minions. I wonder if he also gets to keep some of the equipment that is sent to him, especially by one Chinese manufacturer in particular.
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