Amir and Blind Testing


Let me start by saying I like watching Amir from ASR, so please let’s not get harsh or the thread will be deleted. Many times, Amir has noted that when we’re inserting a new component in our system, our brains go into (to paraphrase) “analytical mode” and we start hearing imaginary improvements. He has reiterated this many times, saying that when he switched to an expensive cable he heard improvements, but when he switched back to the cheap one, he also heard improvements because the brain switches from “music enjoyment mode” to “analytical mode.” Following this logic, which I agree with, wouldn’t blind testing, or any A/B testing be compromised because our brains are always in analytical mode and therefore feeding us inaccurate data? Seems to me you need to relax for a few hours at least and listen to a variety of music before your brain can accurately assess whether something is an actual improvement.  Perhaps A/B testing is a strawman argument, because the human brain is not a spectrum analyzer.  We are too affected by our biases to come up with any valid data.  Maybe. 

chayro

Showing 7 responses by teo_audio

On the other had, amir will not stopn those will grow past him, after they spend time on the website. Slowed down, for some, maybe.

Even stereo review served it's purpose. Not all of it was bad, or could be.

Those with a tenancy to grow beyond his website, will do so.

The full title would be:

"Synthetic psychology and the midwit problem -- in High End Audio. Or, ’"How illiteracy, Jonestown, emotions, thought forms, ’Jesus Christ-Lust For Glory’, and Spartacus -- all met on the road, one day"

Amir and co were also proclaiming Bybee devices would have no effect whatsoever on audio. Then one of them actually measured them, and the Bybee devices were reducing distortion. So did they admit they were wrong? Of course not, Amir just immediately moved the goalposts to saying the measured reduction could not possibly be audible, and then demanded double blind tests as proof the Bybee did anything. Then they got embarrassed and quickly locked the thread on their forums so it would move off the 1st page.

They probably failed to remember that Jack’s devices/similar works (works from the same mind) are being used in detection systems in nuclear submarines, for lowering the noise and distortion floor for said extremely sensitive equipment that is being used to detect underwater threats. There being likely even more, that Jack was not allowed to talk about.

I was just thinking of putting together a wide ranging (As it would have to be) article for the audio world, called:

"Synthetic psychology and the midwit problem -- in High End Audio."

Perhaps A/B testing is a strawman argument, because the human brain is not a spectrum analyzer. We are too affected by our biases to come up with any valid data. Maybe.

Actually, the human brain and ear ARE an spectrum analyzer. A FFT type spectrum analyzer. The world’s finest, in fact.

Here’s the kicker, though:

That depends upon the owner-operator conditions, though. Which vary.

Each one is built out of similar materiel. But, each has different capacities.

Akin to the difference in intelligence. High Ear-Q vs Low Ear-Q.

This is also tied to intelligence and capacities to understand the abstract in mental terms and descriptions. All the stuff required to make it to the point of doing correctly framed physical experiments. Experiments known to be limited in their scope and the weighing of such outcomes in the so-called real world..

As it all has individual aspects, in differential, and happens internally in the brain and ear and mind of the owner-operator of the given ear-brain. There is no winner-loser-etc in in any connected mundane analysis, like a person passing a finishing line first, or whatnot. That childlike simplicity in analysis (of this complexity of a question) is not possible, here. It will require a brain and balance to get to the meat of the matter.

Next item up for bids on "the intellectual analysis is finally correct" scientific comedy show (when it comes to the correct definition of the question), is, that we each train our individualized Extreme grade FFT analyzer independently of anyone else.

Next item that comes up, is that this individualized organic based FFT device is UNCONSCIOUSLY shifted about, wordlessly shifted about, it is not written on paper and then we flip a switch with loud proclamations that we are flipping a switch, or twirling a dial, and changing the measurement criteria scope or range - that anyone can check on. There is no place or spot where everyone can see a physical differential or change is simply not possible, and never really will be.

No first past the post no monopoly ownership of a game, no photo finish, no measurements taken with gear. Thus the lower tiers of mundane analysis are denied their grip on the idea of physical realities that all can access. This sort of thinking is denied presence, denied by the barrier of intellectualism and thought being required  --as part of the set of components involved.

Ground pounders are confounded into confusion and insistence. Rightfully so, IMO and IME.

So, we move to intellectual and internal analysis where philosophy and thought and verbal/written analysis and synthesis takes place. Our highest endeavors are connected to our world in these sort of areas. The physical, for some, the visible, for some, the hard facts, for some, are all seen as the final arbiters of reality for humanity ------ but this is not true and has NEVER been true.

We enter into a point where are forced to go back to the origins of scientific rigor and deal with the point that philosophy, extrapolation, and rigor in logic... are our finest tools in defining the rigors of science. Defining the directions and scope of the overall human endeavor.

The next step in explaining why hard measurements over that of what ears say..to explain why that view and position is wrong..that complexity... involves getting the people who think such ways to understand they are wrong -- this is the nut or core of the problem.

Such a scenario involves getting them to understand something that they are seemingly wired to not understand, something that they block. Which turns to philosophy and the rigors of psychology as tied to the wiring of the human mind.

THAT is the big nut we try to crack in these arguments that seem to go on forever.

Sometimes it seems more than a little bit hopeless.

If it is constantly explained but the details go ’whoosh!’ and the deniers go back to their position of ’The hard measured physical reality in front of us describes all’..we are not going to get very far, are we?

Every person in the world of audio comes up against this complex question and we each handle it differently. Some go on to understand it, some butt their head against it forever.

Some feel they’ve reached some completion in the hard physical measurements but the question remains in others, to a high degree. To a high enough degree that others commit to high levels of battle with the ’measurement crowd’, to prevent the measurement crowd from attempting to force a reality on all others.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I could go on for pages and pages more, but the end point is that physical measurements as they stand, connected solely to engineering criteria and weighting, fail to take into consideration the capacities of the human ear and brain and generally fail to understand ’hard engineering based measurements’ limits and limited scope, in application, to the complex question at hand.

I await the next ’whoosher’ to come in and attack me, when the opposite is more the real desire. I desire them to step back, and reform their hypothesis. to move to real scientific based investigation. NOT engineering based investigation.

As engineering based attempts of analysis comes AFTER scientific definition of a problem and it’s parameters in/for analysis......NOT before.

Go back, go back, go back. Restate your assumptions., check their veracity. If the resistance remains then go back, go back, go back....and find the missing points in your assumptions. Then reform a hypothesis, and then move to designing a testing regimen that encompasses all of the KNOWN or SUSPECTED question.

Where.. if one is lucky, the results of that may finally reflect the seen and known reality in all it’s complexities. The longer a question remains unanswered, the more fundamental the mistakes in the formation of it’s orignal hypothesis.

That...is science. Not this illiterate tail wagging the dog we see on these forums, day in and day out.

This is my beef with ASR. It is clearly anti-science. It is dogmatic. To a serious level of fault.

Should I just ignore that and look on the bright side of life, or drown in the koolaid?..... :P

and created the Brian Jonestown Massacre ?

No such thing.

The ever ambiguous they - drowned everyone who saw it. No witnesses.

Huh?

There are various stories about the origins of Life of Brian. Shortly after the release of Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975), Eric Idle flippantly suggested that the title of the Pythons’ forthcoming feature would be Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory (a play on the UK title for the 1970 American film Patton).[13] This was after he had become frustrated at repeatedly being asked what it would be called, despite the troupe not having given the matter of a third film any consideration.

I was just going through the history of digital audio and also looking at class D design.

In both cases, human hearing comes down to largely being a drawing or writing down of a direction of the conclusion of both bits of work.

Long histories of discussion about the math and the engineering ... charts, drawings, formulas..etc... then, finally...at the end.. an arrow pointing at an image of a human ear. That’s all she wrote.

In digital audio, it is all math and engineering...where the human ear is barely mentioned. Other than being the final target of all the mathematical works.

Same for Class D design. All math, and the ear as a nebulous target.

Zero mention of the intricacies of the human ear or how humans are connected to said ear, or how any of the ears exist as being ’individually differentiated’ in qualities and capacities.. and are also self determined, as outcomes (and remain a variable in tuning, filtering and scope!) in said ear-brain combinations.

The target was never really ever considered in either of the mathematical and engineering cases.

Where the math and the engineering is good but the ear is a individual variable and is not all that well understood, to this day, regarding final aspects of capacity and quality or how it works, in the minutia.

If that’s not a massive case of being bassackward, I don’t know what is.

It’s a case of finalizing an answer for a question that is not fully defined enough for the answer (digital and class D) to be properly connected to the question.

Where, ultimately, there is an ’not equals’ sign between them.

It’s an OK fit, it’s an averaged fit ----not a perfected one.

A scientist, a theoretician, would catch that. They are trained to. It's in their mental wiring. Their mental wheelhouse of capacities. It is simply good clear logic and analysis in the art of exploration. An engineer is not really properly taught such aspects as their work is primarily not of such a nature.

That is the idea behind the concept and execution of the class or direction called ’engineering’. It’s about dogmatic text ( eg, theory taught as law) being applied to relatively fully understood and fleshed out concepts, for the purposes of building out the world in the physical sense. Things well enough understood to build physical objects. Engineering.

In all seriousness, engineering came about as a class or grouping of people, in the context of education, where the group of people were not generally mentally capable of the aspects of science that requires an ease in abstract thinking and imagination. Not their wheelhouse.

The human mind, being ensconced within an animal carrier that colors all it’s thoughts...at it’s limits of cognition..it goes to ground and attempts to reach out in forms of hard physicality, not abstract application of ideas and ideals.

We’re talking about individual aspects of human intelligence and psychological reach and range, as it plays out between individuals. The renaissance men who created the concept of engineering as a class of endeavor, they took this aspect of human limits reverting to dogmatism, and turned it into something useful, for having large amounts of people who could build out the physical world.

Thus, rote repeat and texts and teaching of a dogmatic bent/nature were born, into academia. And the world of engineering was born. Levels of academia tied to generalized levels of intellectual and mental capacities. That’s how it works.

The problem is that the engineering type of mindset, which is a notably larger group of people than the abstract thinkers who created the enginnering group endeavor as a class of endeavor.., said engineering group wants to pick up those now (created for them) biblical texts of ’scientific law’ of what is really scientific theory, and promote it as unbreakable law.

This is how we end up with a large number of people not well versed in science and exploratory works in to unknowns, who think they are, coming along and telling us that ears must obey the law of the land and we are all fooling ourselves.

They are marching around wearing the entire field of science backward. Where academia purposely created this overall scenario - with this unintended but unsurprising outcome ...and we must ALL obey or have some sort of scientific papal bull issued against us, if we don’t.

Right......

Academia recognizes this and you won’t find a single professor in any upper quality academic situation in the world who disagrees with my general analysis, here. You might find one or two but ~+99% or more would agree with my general analysis of this audio related situation.

It’s when the dogmatic mind is free of academia and scientific rigor in execution and thinking-- it then reverts to type and we end up with this infection that poisons discussions of complexities in audio.

There is a thing about basic mental construction in people. Two basic camps in how minds center, flow and function.

One way we tend to think about it is liberal vs conservative

The next set of descriptors could be optimistic vs pessimistic

the next set of descriptors could be lateral vs linear

The next set of descriptors could be open vs closed

The next set of descriptors could be explorative vs negative proofing

The next set could be adventurous vs safe and traditional

The next set of descriptors could be consciousness awareness vs unconscious living

Or, Jungian vs Freudian

Or... Agnostic/Atheist vs religious

Or, the inventors, the bringers of the new.... vs the rote repeat book plodders, as the two basic ways to move through life.

Thinking types vs virtue signalers.

Chaos vs order.

Most folks are a variant/mix of some of each, all mixed up in their mental and physical tum-tum-tummy. Basic patterns of behavior and mindfulness tend to emerge and be the more potent or visible contributor of their essence, that others may witness.

We need both to exist, we need chaos moved into some form of order, but the extremes of either is death for all of humanity.

Thus we cannot, at this time, exist within the idea of a future, without the strong contribution of each.

An important point, is that the lateral, the liberal, the adventurous, and the chaotic, are more expressed in high intelligence than in a given more mundane intelligence. More options can give a more cavalier thinking process about basic safety perceptions in overall factors in life.

At the same time we cannot say that conservative behavior is a full indicator of intelligence (even though it is a factor), but that creativity has some weighing in the equation. Conservative types can be highly intelligent, it is just that it is a different form of expression of intelligence.

Creatives, for the most part, can’t live without their manifold acts of expression. Literally.

Where the conservative types can’t exist without beating such behavior down. Literally.

One way to think of ASR is as one of closed thinking, book thinking, rote thinking, safe thinking, judgemental thinking, factual thinking.

Which is fine, until you realize that too much of it, will literally kill the future into a static nothingness with no real openness of capacity or intent, direction, or capacity to deal with new challenges. Ultimately.... a closed dead system. As the clash said, ’And there is no future in England’s dreaming’

Point is, that the creatives and the disruptors are 100 percent responsible for all of humanity’s future. All. Zero exceptions. And the record shows it. Through all of human history, in every moment and context.

Where the conservative types, unwillingly (as they don’t want it with just as much life force as the creatives fundamentally must exist their own way), forcefully.. make it work, so it’s stable and has form. Conservatives are 100% necessary to ensure that the now has a form.. and we can then stand in some filled out form of a space, exist in context and reflection... and reach for a new future.

Overall, the answer is that this clash with ASR is fundamental and inescapable. As long as humans exist as they do, this schism will exist.

The issues come when creatives, who are generally, via a life lived..are aware of this, to some extent,  and thus find themselves having to constantly remind the conservative types that this ’extremism’ if you will, is required to exist. Required. 100% necessary. As the closed mind, the book learning as life expression, the negative proofing of the conservative mind  -resists the intrusion with all of it’s life force.

So the creatives are the ones who get to be hung on the cross.

Forever.