Advice on Speaker upgrade vs System Component Upgrade

 I'd like to move up a level with detail / clarity while still keeping that musical mid range..

Add bass traps in the corners and I noticed the window behind your setup. I know you can close the curtain, which is key. You can get a room kit for a small office from auralex at a decent price. I wouldn't change components until you treat the room. 

I see your dilemma. Looking at your equipment I have to say it is pretty well balanced. No obvious one piece that is really weak compared to the others.

You have excellent speakers, and so are the Wilson and Sonus Faber. But they definitely have a different character. The Wilson is going to be more detailed and descrete image oriented and the Sonus Faber more musical… with great detail… but a bit less in your face (like real acoustic music in real life is). I would think the Wilson is what you are specifically asking for. I am not aware of how old the Wilson’s are. You should probably listen to them and see if the draw to the Wilson is what you want. The Wilson will have much greater presence and authority.

Now, if you make that move… assuming you are putting yourself into a $15K - $20K newish area, then over time you would want to upgrade the rest of your equipment to get the most out of you speakers. So, if you do lots of research and find the best possible gear that has the electronic character you want then you should double your investment in each (or more) and each new component should give you a “wow”. So, thinking $5K per… Streamer, DAC, Preamp, and amp. That system should be at the next level if you have done everything right and will be a hugely better system.

Thanks for the great advice @kota1 ​​@ghdprentice - really smart stuff

@kota1 I have looked at room treatment but for my small listening room/office , i don't really play loud at all ~ 80-85 DB, and often late at night, and haven't noticed any overpowering bass so far. I do close the curtains which were bought as they are a little heavier for sound absorption to avoid the window problems. I did read recently that getting some treatment behind the listening position is maybe the most important for preserving imaging & soundstage - I think i could definitely start there and hang some blankets and see if its a big impact. 

@ghdprentice - what a beautiful system you have - and a wonderful room to listen in - its certainly something to aim for!

I have been in a dilemma with the living situation - the living room is 25*60*8ft, and I have the Kef R11's there in a home theatre setup, but i do most of my listening late night in my office, so i'm trying to figure out if i can get the next level speakers to work there and get my use out of them, or be forced to the living room where i might not get the same amount of use. I'll figure it out. 

Makes perfect sense that if i decide to the 15-20k level on speakers i'll need to replace the other components overtime - as and when budget permits. But in the shorter  term i can get the speakers and i think my components are "good enough" to get a lot out of whatever speakers i get next even if its not the max. 

I'm leaning Sonus Faber though, because they have the musical mid range and more of the Dynaudios, and they may have more detail - They have better WAF too, so if i move them to the living room at some point, that might actually be a positive from my better half, and finally - I feel like the Wilson's need a really great room to work and would be very hard to get the most out of in my small office. 

Lol, #firstworldproblems!

Thanks - much food for thought

You will get much more bang for your buck upgrading your speakers. The Sonus Fabers are a better value and you have the amp to drive them.

Your local dealer would probably deliver and set up the speakers in your home for you to evaluate for a time, especially at that price point.  I’d have a console with them to see what they think. 

A few thoughts…

First, that’s a tough room not only because it’s small but because it’s square — it’s a bass nightmare, and I would not try to shoehorn floorstanders in there because you’ll have to fight those issues and may not even be able to overcome it.  Before I got a house I had an apartment with a 13x13 living room and it was a disaster for bass issues.  Don’t do it.  
Next, if you’re not already, doing it, use the i2S connection from the Iris to your DAC.  I did this and it was transformative in terms of a lower noise floor, clarity, detail, and soundstage/imaging.  Everything just popped more within a clear 3D stage.  I got these results using this cheap $6 HDMI cable from Monoprice — I’m of the opinion the HDMI cable might not be that important as long as it’s as short as possible and preferably less than one foot (I got the 0.5 foot length).

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13578

As mentioned above, bass traps in that room could improve things significantly.  Also, adding a couple small subs with room integration software like the SVS SB1000 Pro subs ($1150/pr with risk-free trial period including shipping both ways) might well be worth a try rather than struggling to wrestle floorstanders in there.  You’ll get the full-range experience, but the bass will be much more flexible and manageable, especially in your room.

On the more extreme side you could try speakers like these nice Joseph Audio Pulsar 2s that may be a bit more transparent and neutral. 
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649977097-joseph-audio-pulsar-speakers-upgraded-to-pulsar-2-graphene-spec-in-late-22/

Last, if you’re looking for more detail/clarity the Aleph 60 may not be helping as it’s more on the warm/smooth side.  Have you tried the JC5 in that room?

Anyway, sorry for the brain dump but hope it at least gives you some things to chew on and hope it helps.  Best of luck in your quest!

Thanks all! 

@mijostyn & @paradisecom - I think its a great point about the dealer - not sure they would do an in home setup/trial on the Sonus Fabers as they are used/demo, but worth asking for sure. The Wilsons would have to be a purchase and hope through audiogon as i'm not quite ready to pay full retail & get the in home trial.. maybe - we will see - bonus season is coming...

@soix I do have the i2s - its the reason i got the iris - i have a nice Tubulus concentus cable, and i definitely noticed the difference right away. my system is very quiet. 

I have a single Kef KC62 and it's nice and doesn't overpower - but again, i'm not cranking out real high listening levels normally, so i haven't felt the need to manage bass and do treatments... but if i do get the volume up a bit, the treble on the dynaudios gets shrill and the bass gets sloppy for sure - so running into the issues. 

Funny about the JC5 - it sounds good, but tighter - I was really wanting to try out the Pass labs sound and ended up deciding to build the Aleph 60 monoblocks myself for fun, and also i wasn't ready to buy an amp (XA60) for what i'm planning on spending on speakers. If you are interested - check out DIY Audio, and i can give you the name of the guy who sold me the circuit boards and mosfets on etsy - awesome guy Randy who really held my hand - great learning experience, and i got to taste the Pass sound - more holographic and smoother for sure - a little softer, but sounds really nice for what I listen to. I also built the simpler Amp Camp Amp which is even more holographic (2nd order stuff) but its too low power for my Dynaudios and Kefs for sure. Anyway... thanks for the suggestions....

But really i do love my system as is - I've just been wandering through roon  this afternoon, and it really is a good system - it sounds great for my listening room and levels/late night listening and I think that is the answer... if i'm going for that next level its going to have to be in the living room where i'm not fighting the room so much - i can replace the Kef R11's with Sonus Faber / Wilsons.

Interesting you mention the Joseph Audio pulsars - the dealer has some JA RM33SI's used .. but not likely that real next step up but might be fun.

So many possibilities.. i kinda hate the upgraditis but its also the fun part right lol

Oscar Trio - Marten ... low order crossover / bass / build quality.

From Mfg website: 

• Copper foil air core coils
• Silver/Gold capacitors
• Supreme resistors
• Jorma internal cabling 

Bases covered.

$11k msrp

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2021/02/14/marten-oscar-trio-loudspeaker-review/

My recommendation is to listen to martens or similar.

I'd keep the HS in the office and upgrade the KEFs to the Olympica's.  They are absolutely gorgeous, I might change out my OG Contours with the Sonettas in my home theater just based on looks. 

The HS is a near perfect bookshelf, I don't think either the Sabrina or Olympica will be an upgrade, and as soix mentioned could lead to bass issues in a small room. I heard the Tune Tot and Nova I so it was bookshelf vs bookshelf.  HS was the best to my ears though that Nova was pretty and the Tune Tot was a cool red color.  Not my taste but they looked expensive.  And were.  

If you are going to spend money looking for a meaningful upgrade then the only choice would be speakers. As far as asking which one to buy you will need to rely on your ears over opinions.

You can add all the fancy cables you want. You can upgrade your amplifier/preamp or receiver. Buy a new CD player or streamer or whatever, it will not erase the sound  of your old speakers. Might hear very, very small difference.
 

Nothing compares to a significant upgrade in speakers. 

OP,

Be very careful on this possible move to the living room!

I have said often, I would much rather have a small system in a dedicated room than a bigger one in a common area… especially if it is nearer to where my partner sleeps… or will want to cohabitate.

I have heard drop dead gorgeous systems with spectacular imaging and realism in rooms the size of walk in closets. It takes effort… tubes, careful choices, room treatments. But because the room is smaller you don’t need as much power and hence you can get higher quality lower power stuff (amp and speakers).

I vote for the dedicated closet and the knowledge that you can create a world class system in it for much less money than moving to a communal space.

It also allows for something you can really be proud of for what you achieve by using your mind. Learning the nuances of the acoustics of small spaces and really high quality electronics.

The Heritage Special doesn't have the woofer and box size to produce decent bass. I would add a sub or two.

The SF Amator Electa 3 or the Guarneri  seem to be more logical

in the smaller room. Franco Serblin makes a Standpoint too.

Did you say what your digital side consists of?

@gmdodd 

I recommend an audition of the Rockport Atria ii speakers. They are very good and should be able to work in your room. You should be able to find used in your price range. Good luck ! 

Try Vivid Audio Kaya 45 $18,000

They have no sharp edges and all drivers are connected to a tube in the back to eliminate any back wave resonances from the cabinet & the driver. They sound like open baffle speakers, but make more bass.

Call GTT Audio and Bill will help you compare them to those other box speakers really well (908) 850-3092

Always go for better speakers first if your existing speakers aren’t ’I think I’m done’

No audition these days (in any case you need to hear them in your space), go for returns accepted’.

ANY speaker, my recommendations:

No ports, if so front only.

Reasonably away from corners.

Tilted back slightly so the angle of dispersion is not parallel to floor/ceiling/side walls

Then tweeter aimed directly at ear height when seated.

Toe-In, each side aimed directly at single listening position, to maintain high frequencies which have narrow dispersion both horizontally and vertically

Listening distance a bit further back than the width between the speakers.

Ability to alter toe-in if you listen with a friend: say a small drink table between two chairs. aim left speaker directly at right person, right speaker directly at left person. That gives somewhat decent imaging, hearing both l and R results by the mix of increased direct dispersion opposite side with more volume of closer speaker.

Note: you might try the above with your existing speakers first, hear what I suggest.

IF subs to start or later: a stereo pair, front firing, located near primary. Very low bass is mono, but the overtones quickly become directional.

For a very long time I had dynaudio speakers that I loved, and when I went to upgrade my system I was seriously looking at Sonos Faber. When I listened, they were very musical, but I didn't feel they had enough energy/drive for rock.  I ended up getting Piegas (Swiss and not much represented here) which had the musicality I needed for symphony music but also enough punch that I could enjoy blues and rock (and made the muscular sections of symphonies much more exciting).

You will get your big upgrade in sound by changing your speakers

so  my recommendation is Vandersteen Quatros and here's why your room size 

Quatros can be tuned to your room place them for the best image and tune for the bass 

just a great sounding speaker have in my system 

Price 17k new  6-7k used

enjoy the journey 

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.. I'll try to cover everything i've read..and my thoughts

So lets go

1. I think i'm leaving a lot of performance untapped with my current system unless i try some room treatment. Its a pretty small investment compared to new speakers, and i think i owe it to my dynaudios to get some bass traps in and some panels on front wall and behind listening position. @ghdprentice 

2. I think floor standers are going to probably be too much for my small room - even modest one's like the olympica nova ii's - and i'd just end up wondering if the small room was holding them back and keep wanting to move them to the living room to let them breathe 

3. @jeffseight I've looked at the electa amator iii's and thought that they might not be all that big an improvement over my heritage specials - more a different character. The amator maxima was another option.. I can listen to those locally, and these might work in my small room being a 2 way. The Guarneri looks amazing, but i'm not likely to get one used.. and if i was dropping 20k i'd want floorstanding end game speakers... But they sure are beautiful!

4. @pennfootball71 The Kayas look really interesting, but if i ever wanted to move them out to the living room, the WAF won't cut it. Nice recommendation - i'm ure they are amazing.

5. ​​​@elliottbnewcombjr Good tips - and one's i can try easily myself. I already have good spacing from wall, and do toe in to my listening chair (which i have to move from the wall to the listening spot due to space limitations ( dual role office/listening room). I could add a second sub, but won't until i've done the room treatments as there is plenty of bass now.

6. ​​​@ronboco The Rockport Atria's are a new one on me - and i'm just concerned about not being able to listen to them anywhere - i wouldn't buy used without being able to listen to at least something in the same family. Same on the vandersteens...

7. @tomstruck The vandersteens look really interesting, and used are right in the ballpark. again, i've read good things about them, but would really prefer to listen to them, however at the 6-7k used i might be tempted to roll the dice

So thanks again for all the good thoughts and recommendations. 

Wrapping up..

Going to work on my current room with treatments and get the best out of  my current system, and in the meantime I will also go back to the local dealer and listen to the SF's and some Wilsons and see which flavor i prefer really... but these are likely living room speakers. I can likely audition some in home, but that would likely commit me to that dealer (Wilson, SF and Paradigm). As for the other recommendations - i'm reluctant to pull the trigger without being able to listen first - i guess that will always limit me, but I will try and find somewhere local (nor cal) to listen to the vandersteens, rockports etc.

Thanks again gonners - happy listening!

I think you’re definitely on the right track dealing with your tough room first.  A lot of folks here say good things about GIK for both advice and products that aren’t astronomically priced, so they may be worth a call to pick their brains and maybe even get recommendations customized for your room.  Couldn’t hurt.  Best of luck!

If you are leaning towards Sonus Faber sound you should look into the Guarneri evolution that TMR is selling for $6800 (orig. $24000)

Best Sonus Faber stand mount and absolutely gorgeous.

Gmdodd

where are you located.   I may have something for you.   
mark

East Bay (NorCal)

OP,

👍. I agree. You have really great components… speakers included. What can be done with room treatments and careful thought is amazing.

I remember one of the most amazing systems I have ever heard was in a closet sized room. The images of say a big horn was huge, hanging in the air above the system in space. The creator had put plywood under a sheet sub-parallel to the floor… sloped down ward towards the listener in both horizontal axes… it kind of looked cool. I asked about it. He said the images were too low, so this treatment moved them up two or three feet so they were suspended below the ceiling… but well off the floor. I think the electronics were Cary… or VAC. 

This system was so involving and real with a panorama of imaging taking up the entire 1/3 front of the room.

This demonstrates what room treatments can do in the hands of someone who learns to be a master. Hopefully, knowing this… can help you… you can make your system incredible, right where it is. I think you have all the makings.

OP,

As several have said, treat your room as the dimensions aren't great.

I won't buy my next set of speakers without auditioning the Joseph Audio Pulsar 2 Graphene speakers. I've got some time to save up yet, but I'd also throw in Tannoy's, Fyne Audio, and Borreson X3s.

If you like SF, I saw recently 2 pairs of Stradivari, and IMHO very few speakers come close to bringing the recording venue into your room the way those do. 

I suggest you add the second woofer before you do room treatments.

A stereo pair of subs is a very different experience than 1.

I would upgrade your speaker to a floor stander which will have better frequency integration than an sat/sub. brand is your preference.  I love Wilson.  Just upgraded from Alexia (with two subs) to Alexx V (no sub) and realized big SQ improvements.

I have seen your Room Dimensions and a proportion of your Rooms Layout.

I would not be too hasty to focus on controlling Bass Energy, the Deep Pile Carpet is already absorbing energy from the lower frequencies.

I feel based on my own experience of working in a smaller space that working with the energy in the room and diffusing it, can prove to be the best starting place.

Hearing Sound that is not a reflected sound can be appealing with immediacy.

How the sound is managed is a evolving experience, more can be attained as the ear learns more of what is an attraction.     

square rooms are difficult

So thanks again for all the help - what a great community!

I have been leaning Sonus Faber for a long time now, and thanks @skchun for pointing me at the Guarneri Evolutions on TMR - i had a think, and for that price point, I decided to pull the trigger.

Beautiful speakers, and I love that SF sound. They are well reviewed, and should be a next step up in quality... or at the very least a different sonic character to the Dynaudios that i know that i love. They also apparently sound good at low listening levels which is important to me as i do most listening late night. Finally, if they don't work out, they will have definite resale/trade in value, or could sell the HS (but i love them and won't sell unless i have a very good reason) 

They should work in my small room better than a floor stander (i'm just not convinced I can ever make that work in my room really well). I have an old pair of B&W CM10 S2's that i had in there and had trouble with bass - I certainly preferred the HS + Sub as i could keep the bass levels down at night, though the HS are a better speaker all around so not really fair.

These will also benefit from the treatment i'm going to do (gik acoustic or auralex). Again I don't really have a "boomy" room with the carpet, curtains and closet in the office room, so i'll start with some diffusers on side wall and behind listening position and go from there.

I'll be able to directly compare them to my Heritage Specials and see which i prefer in the room. I also think that I will have the option to move them to the living room if that's where they end up sounding best, but I won't be in a hurry to do that - they will get way more use in my office/listening room.

I'm pretty sure that the next purchase would be a good tube amp with more grunt and quality than my Wilsenton R8 (nice as that is for the price)... So i'll throw that bone out there to the group...

I'm also pretty sure i'll add a second sub for the stereo pair at some point. 

Thanks again for the support and advice - very much appreciated!

Happy Listening!

Congrats!  Keep us posted on your impressions of you could. 

@gmdodd , In regards to room treatment there are really two issues, evening out bass response and helping the system produce the best image.

Bass traps are worthless. If you have a bad room for bass the only two options that really work are multiple subwoofers and digital room control. If you do not want to get involved with all this stuff the best solution is to move your listening position backwards or forwards until you find the bass acceptable by ear. You might only have to move it a foot or two.   

Improving your image and dampening out artifacts like sibilance requires muting first reflection points throughout the room. This can be done with expensive panels from various companies but also just as effective is really cheap 4" acoustic foam tile. You could probably treat the whole room for less than $100.00! That is what I use but in my case the speakers hide the tile.  As for whether or not the foam tile are aesthetically acceptable is a matter of personal taste.   

OP,

I find the Sonus Faber sound to be the most natural and musical of any I have heard. Hence, I am on my third pair. Congratulations. I think you are headed in a great direction. Tell us how it goes. 

You must give a chance to Wolf Von Langa Son speakers, they re really good!!!

From your post, you may be at a point of diminishing returns. You look to be adding some bass extension. Putting some Wilsons in the space would likely be over kill IMHO. You will be filling your room with bass traps I would imagine. Only you could tell. Anyway. I've recently picked up some Totem Tribe towers. Don't let those 4" drivers fool you. I'm getting a real 30Hz feq response (measured). The only crossover they have is a first order to the tweeters. I drive there 4 ohs with a S300 from PS Audio and if fill my open concept room. 20-30 foot depth and about 15 foot wide, while maintaining a surprising sound stage well past the ideal seating area. Like many bookshelves speakers they simply disappear in the room. Placement is not critical. I tend to use digital sources (CD / stream / NAS) through my NAD dac produces a gentle (not warm) sound. I think the class A analog cell in the S300 really helps.
Visit a dealer and see for yourself. You will be asking yourself... how...? They are not "WoW' speakers, but the more you listen to them the more you will think "WoW" female vocals are stunning. I demo'ed their Element Metal V2s and those are WoW speakers. But could be in the same situation as the Wilsons... too much of a good thing. I listen to lots of Floyd, Led, along with Jazz, Blues, Classical, Opera and the Totems do amazing on darn near everything. I may still be in the honeymoon stage with them, but I would take these over my old B&W everyday. I have a large dog and she can push the Tribes no their isolation feet as she tries to get to the window. A draw back in my mind, but these speaker defy the laws of physics, Definitely worth a listen. May suite you perfectly. 

pennfootball71,

I sent you a PM.

@rego - I'm going to be auditioning Oscar Duo and Parker Duo later this week. Stand-mounts are best for me. 

First, @gmdodd - second the congrats on SF Guarneri Evo.

Really no better listening than in situ ...

@larsman, the Parker would have my expectations up (high) with higher sensitivity,

variable x-over and tuned with a passive radiator. 

But given the dazzling review of Oscar at pta-phillips noted as " fast " , should be a battle!

@rego - Yes, that Oscar Duo is 'fast'; it won an audition I had at my dealers a few weeks ago against a Dynaudio Heritage Special and a YG Acoustics Tor (and my current Fritz Carrerra BE's, which I brought along). There was just something in that Marten sound that sold me on those before the first demo song was over. Since then, I'm a bit more flush which is why I'm looking at the Parker Duos now, as well. 

So I thought i would give a short update to all the kind advisors in the thread after I went ahead and bought the SF Guarneri Evolutions which arrived late last week

First impressions - what a beautiful pair of speakers in person - more like cabinetry or something you'd find on a yacht with the wood planks, polished veneer and nickel plates. Certainly a very different look than my retro Heritage Specials, and one that i am extremely happy with. Funnily enough I asked my wife about them thinking that the WAF would be very high - she told me that none of them look right for the living room - she wants hidden/wall mounted, but that i could have whatever i wanted (she's a keeper). At the end of the day i'll get so much more use in my office / listening room than the living room anyway.

I'm still getting the positioning right, and a/b testing between the Parasound JC5 and the Aleph 60 monos. I did try my wilsenton r8 with stock kt88s but didn't feel it moved me at all, so i did order some psvane el34s and 6sn7s to see if rolling might put me on a better track.

The JC 5 is very nice, is clean, slightly warm, slightly tighter/faster bass and dynamics vs the alephs, and a more forward presentation with quite a bit less soundstage than the Alephs

As for the Alephs, this is definitely my preference - i think its a really nice pairing, the soundstage is set back and deeper and wider, there is plenty of bass and good dynamics (but not quite at the jc5 level). And it has a sweet top end and mid range bloom with that second order harmonic distortion that really compliments the Evo's character. The detail is there but not in your face like the Heritage specials are with their Esotar 3 tweeter (both silk dome, dynaudio i believe)

So i'm very happy - however there is one issue, the left voice/mid woofer has some slight distortion at certain low frequencies - a soft flapping sound or vibration/hub which is telling me the driver is damaged slightly - maybe the spider or voice coil. I really only noticed it after about 30 minutes and confirmed with my test tracks cd.

I've been able to work with my local SF dealer to source a replacement driver (the last one apparently) and will be able get it fixed relatively little money. I was also able to purchase a driver myself through ebay on friday, which arrived today and seems to be the correct part and undamaged, and was going to fix it myself (remember id built the Alephs DIY), but then the dealer got back to me. But at least i have that as a back up. Shame that this happened, especially as the seller (The Music Room) had certified the speaker as fully working, so i'll give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to old used speakers and about a week of shipping via freight. The speakers are still under their 14 day return and 45 day warranty, and i will reach out to TMR and see if they will cover the repair, but if not, i'd rather do this locally than ship this all back to ohio by freight.

But despite this issue I think this speaks to how truly good they sound - that i was not going to part with them even after just a few days.

So did i achieve my goal? Yes i think i did. Are the Evo's night and day better than the HS? No, and i won't be selling them either - they are just a pure, clean, great sounding (and now i know a very neutral sounding speaker). In my untreated room, i think the HS treble might be a bit too hot, but i'll be very happy to keep them and switch them in for a change once in a while. They may even replace the Kefs in the living room. And the bass is fantastic - certainly  better than the HS which is no slouch (and has a little tighter bass than the Evos), but I'll be using a sub (and maybe another) to fill in that very bottom end. But the bass is very very good on their own. And with the Alephs, i get a much more holographic soundstage than the JC5 (at least in my  room) - i think the soundstage width is about the same, though id give the HS the edge, and the depth goes to the Evos. 

So overall, i'm super happy - there is just a wonderful musical quality that comes out of them along with such a pure mid range for instruments and vocals that really is a slice of heaven. And yes, it really answered the question i had about the next level/step up. I now know that it is there, but it will cost me a pretty penny to get it - and very likely i won't bother until i have a bigger room and can explore floorstanders - and maybe try the Wilsons after all. 

Anyway, I'm very happy with my purchase, and thanks again for all the good advice. I'll keep you posted with updates on repair and sound after break in, and the effect of room treatment, oh yeah and the new tubes when they arrive, and maybe that new tube amp i'm looking at lol.

Happy Listening!