Looks like it's been said - any pc's except the ones that are included will help. Bang for buck in my book goes to Essential Power the Essence and Triode Wire labs. BMI is a perennial favorite of mine - if you can find a Whale Elite, buy it. It will work anywhere in your system.
Dynamic Design is also hard to beat and pricier, but good deals can be found. There's a digital Challenger listed here that I want to buy even though I don't have a spot for it! One of DD's digital is on my phono preamp and it sounds terrific - big, quiet, nuanced, etc.
And, yes, your Furman! I like to work from the wall out with cabling, so that's where I'd start, too.
I have some white papers from Vincent Galbo of Plinius/MSB fame for power distribution that I used to wire up my audio. If you (or any of you) are interested, PM me.
|
I've never changed my wall socket but I guess I'll give it a try one day.
I'd get a decent power conditioner, Plixir is very good, and then plug your Furman into it, use the Furman like a power extension.
Wall warts are evil excommunicate them.
Plixir or alternative regulated DC power supplies.
I'd buy used power cables until you find a brand that you like. You don't lose money on used cables especially if you buy Cardas etc.
However please understand there are BIG differences between power cables for DACs, Pre-Amps, Power Amps etc.
Power Amps should be plugged directly into the wall socket no power conditioner required.
|
I use a PS Audio Power Port Classic AC Receptacle. Seems to work well in my system.
|
I use Furutech GTX-D Rhodium as well. A revelation in my system.
|
4,044 posts
I’d recommend you upgrade your AC wall outlet. There are a lot of good ones available on the market. I personally use the Furutech GTX-D Rhodium,
|
Electrical is a deep rabbit hole with many benefits.
I would try to replace all wall warts or put them on a seperate ac line.
I have many PS audio noise harvesters and they do help.
I have a PS P10 powerplant, I have all my digital on it. It lets one chose between regulation and distortion and for good or bad it does change the sound. I am not convinced either choice is good although I remember one was not good relative to the other.
I recently tried a SOtM powercord with filter on my music server and it was a big change relative to another $1000 cord in terms of noise.
|
i have a gigawatt in wall power cable and safety switch. high end power cables and a gigawatt pc 3 se evo for my ayon dac and vitus amp.
i have a gigawatt pf2 for my tv. bonn n8 swictch with sbooster psu. marantz 7011 and paradigm subwoofer.
i thought that would be enough for removing home theatre from 2 channel.
WRONG!!!
If you have anything thats not 2 channel or any dc even with good power supply try removing it from that mains plug. try them running from another room!
that made a big difference to clarity and bass for me.
|
We live in a different world today - the mains power is increasingly noisy and polluted.
Thankfully, there's a plethora of solutions from several manufacturers. I use Goal Zero and a Yeti 1000 for my Devialet system, others with traditional power hungry amps may need a Yei 1500, 3000 or even the new 6000 that will power almost anything. They have HUGE current supply, much more than a traditional 15amp domestic circuit and absolutely ZERO noise on the line, they're pure 60Hz. A nice not necessarily extravagant cord finish the last few feet minimizing any potential for RFI/EMI impact. The Stromtank is identical save the $30k price of entry, the Yeti are less than any comparable conditioner.
Once you try it, you wont ever go back!
|
I am currently using a PS Audio P20 and Audioquest Hurricane Power Cords. Two things stick out to me compared to my previous power cords and no power conditioner. #1 the noise level-this is not noise like hum or hiss but much more subtle-when it is eliminated, you have a very, very, quiet black background. That is the best way I can describe it. The P20 does a lot in that regard by regenerating the AC to a very clean sine wave. Regarding the Audioquest Hurricane cables, I was never a believer in power cables making a difference until I tried a demo cable. There was a an immediate reduction in noise-again blacker backgrounds and I noticed increased micro detail. I still couldn't wrap my head around the physics of why this could be possible until I started reading about electrodynamics. I always thought that electricity flowed thru a wire kind of like water thru a pipe. As I began to get a better understand of electrodynamics, I realized, the water thru the pipe analogy was totally wrong. The energy is actually propagated thru the electromagnetic field surrounding the conductors. With that understanding, it opened my eyes to how something like a power cord could actually affect sound. The second big benefit I noticed with the P20 was as passages got louder and more complex, there was no constriction. Previously, as music became louder-like during orchestral crescendos, I would notice a pull back in the sound stage and a bit of harshness in the overall sound. With the P20, this was eliminated. The downside of course is expense. This stuff doesn't come cheap but, it is worth doing a demo. You may not need to go with the P20-there is a P12 and P5. I have some big power hungry amps so I elected to go big. It is definitely worth checking out. BTW, I also have two dedicated 20 amp circuits.
|
In my previous system this was a night and day difference and a must to be at least listenable. The twitter was so bright and over accentuating everything that it sounded like knife sharpening. The sibilants were ear piercing. At that time I lived in a 65 year old townhouse with potentially the worst electricity ever. For example, the system was completely unlistenable between 6pm and 9:30pm. After 9:30pm you could listen to it as it sounded a bit better. Weekend mornings sounded ok too. My friend is an electrician. I asked him if he can pull a dedicated line for me to plug in the gear, we decided on 20 amps. I bough an Audioquest Edison plug and he put it on that dedicated line. Things improved in terms of dynamics but the brightness didn’t. I then bought the Niagara 5000 power conditioner and 4 Monsoon and 4 Cardas Cygnus power cords. Some components liked the Cardas better, some the Audioquest but the main difference was that all the brightness and over accentuating went away. It literally disappeared and the tweeter became very relaxed and natural sounding. This literally was a night and day difference for my system. Your mileage can very however as these things are system dependent. It is better to play it safe and try before you buy.
|
I changed my 2 channel and HT wall warts to Audioquest NRG15's, using all Audioquest powercords(various versions), with Monster HDP2500 for HT system, and Monster AVS2000/Furman 15PFI for 2 channel setup.
|
There is no need to spend ridiculous amounts of money on power cables.
Check the below out for example. Its current carrying capacity of 90 amps at 10 awg is a testament to its quality. And for short runs, its stray capacitance & inductance will not matter. It only costs about $2.60 per foot.
www.mcmaster.com/6276T19/
|
Before buying power cables for individual equipment consider the power cable for your power conditioner. The power for all the equipment plugged into the power conditioner is fed through that one power cable. This is also the first thing that your power conditioner sees and matters most, followed by the wall outlet, house wiring, the drop from the utility pole, and so on.
|
Speaking of power, have any of you experienced Furutech's in-wall power cable, - FURUTECH ALPHA-CB10 Power Cable OCC Copper Alpha Treatment 6.23mm² Ø5.5mm?
It is really more like a hook-up wire in that it is a single run, meaning you would have to double up for power or speaker cables. However, it provides a lot of their top OCC alpha copper for not really a lot of money. At about $43/meter you could do a 2M, 10awg power cord for about $170 plus plugs, or two 8-foot, 10awg speaker cables for $430 plus connectors. The XLPE (Cross-linked Polyethylene) insulation/covering has a relatively low dielectric constant of 2.2/2.3 compared to Teflon at 2.1. I can't seem to find this cable available in the USA - the linked Audiophonics source I believe is in France.
|
Hi @alexberger,
Our suggestion for using a transformer, especially a toroidal transformer is for the purposes of isolation and smoothing. Both SS and tube amplifiers, low or high power, can always benefit from the low impedance mains supply an isolation transformer brings, regardless of whether it needs to be used IN the amplifier. We were suggesting it on the MAINS side, not necessarily IN the amplifier as a part of it.
|
Hi @cakyol ,
For tube amplifiers that don't need a lot of power toroid power transformer is not the best solution.
Most of tube amplifiers (including most expensive) don't use toroid power transformer. Toroidal power transformers are used only in some budget tube amplifiers or in some very height power tube amplifiers.
|
To learn more about transformers, you can go to Transformer School.
BTW, Noratel Group is the company that took over Plitron.
|
"@alexberger: Toroidal transformers are the worst for amplifier power supply."
The above is COMPLETELY UNTRUE. Toroidals are the BEST transformers for noise and efficiency.
Here is an isolation transformer you cannot beat. At 3000VA capacity and at 2.5% regulation, it can even drive a welding machine... quietly:
|
Toroidal transformers are the worst for amplifier power supply.
IMO, nonsense. They contain the magnetic field more predictably, have a higher efficiency, lower weight, or, conversely deliver more power (better regulation). If well designed (key point!!!) there ought to be no difference. I use both and for each application there’s one that fits best.
If you have a lot of data, please present it - i’d love to learn. transformers, even according to practitioners, are partly dark art.
|
|
Hi @terry9 ,
I think it is a function of power consumption.
Typical tube amp power consumption is 100-300 watt. So, for this parameters EI core transformer can be better. External electromagnetic field is less issue for smaller power transformers but a magnetic core quality can be better.
But for big power rating, toroidal transformers have more advantages.
|
@alexberger Well, toroidal cores are harder to make and much harder to wind. Hence torroids are more expensive. For all I know, it may be prohibitive to shape exotic core materials into toroids.
Certainly my Lundahl silver phono SUT’s sound great, and they’re not toroids - but so do my VanderVeen designed ESL SUT’s sound great - and they are toroids. By the way, I did test my Quad 2905 ESL’s with a Plitron-made VdV toroidal SUT against a stock Quad 2905 with matched conventional transformers, in my own system, and it was just no contest for clarity and definition. Toroid triumphed within a few seconds.
As for tube amplifiers, I can think of no-one better to consult than Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere. I had some M60’s, and I’m pretty sure that they had toroids. Also, from a review of M60 Mk II posted on his website, "The two floating output-tube power supplies are fed by separate secondary windings of a massive toroidal transformer".
From the Mark Levinson site, "Unleash the full potential of your music as you go from the quietest lows to the loudest crescendo. The № 536’s toroidal transformer delivers massive power to your speakers".
So, in the realms under discussion, i.e. enough power to run an amplifier, two giants in the field seem to agree with me. Your thoughts?
|
@terry9 Thanks for the thoughtful response to my question. I was hoping the isolator installation would be a bit more “plug and play” 😊. Next steps, talk to my electrician. Thanks again.
|
|
Hi @terry9 ,
At least for tube amplifiers all best producers:
Tango, Tamura, Kondo, Audio Note, Hashimoto, Lundahl
don't make toroidal power transformers. In the tubes world toroidal power transformers are for cheap solutions.
I don't familiar what transistor amplifier producers do. Probably they use toroidal power transformers more often .
Regards,
Alex
|
Why do you say that, @alexberger ? Stray fields are smallest, efficiency highest. Please share - I do hate persisting in error.
|
A last note: when the electrical inspector came to inspect my installation, he said it was the cleanest power he had ever seen, comparable to the electrical generating station where he used to work. It may not be as flashy as the Koetsu, but it's just as important.
|
Toroidal transformers are the worst for amplifier power supply.
I thing for isolation transformers should be the same.
|
Plitron medical isolation transformers are what I use.
Words of caution: isolation transformers tend to hum when they are doing their job, so you want to site these in a utility room. Installation is not hard, but unless you have some experience with home wiring, get it done by a pro. Think of it this way: behind every wall is a large elephant, ever vigilant, straining to get loose and destroy everything. That's the power lurking in the modern home electrical system. When the installation is complete, you will need to involve the electrical inspector, who may want to inspect it. This is essential if you do a permanent installation, because no inspector means no insurance.
Don't worry too much about the length of wire from transformer to outlet. Use oversise Romex for this (for 15 amps, code says AWG14, so use AWG12). Use any hospital grade outlets, which are not the most expensive, just the best, available at your electrical supply store, or from Parts Connexion. Pay no more than about $20 each unless you live in a hot, humid environment, in which case you may need corrosion resistant connection points.
To specify what you need,
Step 1: You will want to put all the electronics on one transformer, everything with a motor on another. To do this, total up the maximum load of each device you will be connecting, usually found on the back of the case or the user's manual. Allow for the future, so add 25% more. Then double the total for technical transformer-thing reasons, and that's the capacity of the transformer that you need. Once you have calculated the capacity of the transformer for your electronics, do the same for the transformer which will run your motors.
Step 2: Torroidal or conventional? Torroidal is better, but can be hard to find. Plitron is toroidal, and used to sell to the public direct from the factory. Maybe they still do.
Step 3: Permanent or portable? Permanent is cheaper to buy, but more expensive to install. For permanent, buy a raw transformer with wires sticking out of it and site it in an electrical box (electrical supply) and feed it with it's own circuit, fed by an oversize cable from the box.
You may have noticed that this involves a bit more than swapping out power cords. It was a bit of a stretch for me to do the whole thing, but it's a hobby, and for me, it's worth it. YMMV
Good luck!
|
Glad to share. Plitron makes a great medical isolation transformer - I use 4 of them.
Will fill in some specifics later today, when Sunday calms down a bit.
|
I am running Monsoon power cables and a Niagara 1200. I listened and decided to remove them all and replace with regular highly shielded " stock" cords. I was beyond shocked at how much the stock cords degraded the sound. Soundstage, and musical separation was gone. And my equipment sounded way less musical. I then repulsed in the Monsoons and the Niagara.
I am moving up the line and will be selling the above. PM me if you are interested and I will make you a great deal.
|
Well, Paul is correct. But he needs to continue: its the job of the amp’s (or preamp’s, but that’s less current-demanding) power supply to deliver that power. Regulation of the DC rails can eliminate this issue - if and only if there is sufficient headroom built into the power supply regulator (heat, money...). Large storage "banks" also deliver this.
But its also why i suggested a 1KW (VA actually) or bigger ISO transformer. If i recall mine is between 2-3K V-A. A large class AB amp might draw 100-150 watts at idle and God knows on peaks (600? 800?) . Remember that every amp on the planet (save a carver) begins with a large isolation and step down transformer at its AC mains. How often does music, with its 10:1 peak-to-average ratio exceed a well designed power supplies ability to deliver r the peak? IMO not often. In general THAT internal transformer will be the limiting factor.
But this is also why i keep harping on the cost-benefit of some tweeks. Even if they "work" would the $500 per wire set be better spent on an amp or preamp that is designed well in the first place? All my testing and listening says yes.
But anyway Paul raises a valid point.
|
@bogbeat
Really good suggestions above. As mentioned I would replace your outlet(s) with something more robust. Check your outlets for proper grounding and connection by using one of those cheap outlet testers.
Regarding power cables the stock black ones sent with equipment are junk and are only meant to power up the equipment. I was at a demonstration at a dealer where they were demonstrating power cables. A really straightforward set up from an integrated to the speakers. Only one power cable was changed. We started with the stock cable and worked our way up to a $10k cable. This was a very, very modest system with inexpensive monitor speakers. My takeaway was that yes the stock cable was junk and the sweet spot for cables was in the $150 to $500 range (full retail).
As @lak and others have stated the zavfino cables are wonderful. You won't be able to build a cable that sounds as good for the money. I have swapped out three of my power cables for the zavfino and they were cheaper than the cables I was using and sound better. A member of our audio club has also purchased the zavfino cables and they are keepers for him and he has tested and owned more cables than I would ever approach. They had been offering discounts on purchases. The only downside of their cables is that they are stiff and if you are between lengths get the longer one.
|
Paul McGowan writes:
“When we place an isolation transformer in the AC path we improve one area, cleanliness, by degrading another, regulation and impedance. An isolation transformer helps keep unwanted noise from the system at the cost of voltage regulation.
It turns out that voltage regulation is far more important than clean power. The greater the regulation the lower the impedance the better the sound quality.”
He suggests using an AC power regenerator (which PS Audio sells).
|
i would first start with having dedicated outlets installed.....and then see if the power conditioner is really needed or not. from there, you can experiment with power cords to see if they make a difference or not.
he said he does
|
First - good powering and grounding is very important and your basic approach is solid. A filter matters ( i have no opinion on that particular brand and made my own which is awesome) and a single place where they are all grounded to ( a big, good power strip or several connected to one outlet) is a great start. The dedicated outlet too is good.
Well, I’ll take the dissenting opinion on upgrading power cords, not just theoretically - but i’ve swapped a bunch of cables. IMO, its at best "way down the priority list". This may have to do with my power (ok) and my equipment (really good power supplies everywhere). But to a degree that’s my point - get the basics right and no magic cables will be required. 60 Hz AC is just not hard to move about for a few feet, with a couple amps.
You ask about wall warts. Good question. 99% of those are switching power supplies. They suck in two ways: 1 they deliver very noisy power that must be filtered very well (not easy trust me). 2 They back feed noise into your power. You are creating exactly what you filter is intended to remove, but with A PROBLEM>>>>> its on the "clean" side of your filter.
To the degree that you can move those wall warts, TVs, computers, Roon Cores, etc to another circuit, do so. Most will have ground broken before they meet your hifi anyway (TV via toslink, Roon visa ethernet). I put my core in another ROOM.
Next, and this may be overkill, if they must remain, replace those cheap ass ($8) switching supplies with linear supplies ($200+, sorry, that’s way they exist). If there’s no ground connection and they are remote, maybe don’t worry too much. But at minimum plug them in on the other side of your filter. I use one filter simply to block the back feed from digital crap. Note my commercial designs have their very own isolated digital junk transformer. Its costly, complex and necessary. And makes awful advertising copy.
I do use an isolation transformer. You need, amplifier depending, about 1kW to be comfy. Most filter similarly. Many are mechanically noisy. Mine is medical surplus, mounted remotely near my panel, driving the 20A feed.
G
|
@terry9
2. installed isolation transformer to run separate outlets at 20% of above cost
Using a VooDoo Electra power cord on my PS Audio BHK pre amp and a VooDoo Black Diamond power cord on my BHK250 power amp, I hear a significant improvement in everything over their stock power cords. The Electra was plugged into my Denali 6000/S power conditioner; the Black Diamond plugged directly into a PS Audio wall receptacle. I'm using a dedicated 20 amp circuit. I also have a whole house surge protector in my electrical box.
Care to share the name of the isolation transformer?
I'm considering a move to Cardas Clear Reflection power cords and interconnects. I'd like to do some A/B testing using my VooDoo cables against their stock power cords with an isolation transformer in the mix.
|
@terry9
Thank you so much for your post, that's the kind of information that rewards hours and hours spent on audiophile's forums. I will definitely try an isolation transformer, never thought about that before:)
Do you recommend any in particular?
Last thing, do you use to connect all your gears to it or just amp/preamp?
|
@cakyol
Thank you. I sometimes feel a bit lonely when trying to help someone who genuinely wants to learn.
|
@terry9
you have about the only believable post on this subject. And since the isolation transformer provides a good low impedance supply, you see the better transient improvement.
Power cords, unless they are thinner than your house romex, will NOT make an improvement.
|
You'll need to replace all the wiring in your home with 99.99999999% OFC, then do the same for the wiring from where ever it is that provides your house's power all the way to your house. Then replace the wiring in any component and speaker with the exact same wire since those manufacturers use the cheapest wiring they can to save money. Only then will you have the best sounding music possible.
*facepalm*
|
No on Rhodium outlets, the Acme Audio 20 amp silver outlet is much better than Rhodium anything. Silver has the lowest resistance and the 20A grips like hospital grade for much less. I'm not a fan of Furman, Audioquest is much better. What I've learned is all connectors are the weakest link, so get the best for everything including interconnects and power cords. Remember solid silver has the lowest resistance/impedance.
|
I did this experiment:
1. borrowed very high end power cords - significant difference - but not as much as spending the $10K on the pre, the amp, or anything else
2. installed isolation transformer to run separate outlets at 20% of above cost
3. plugged factory power cords into isolated outlets - sounded better than expensive cords into normal outlets (1)
4. plugged expensive cords into isolated outlets - no different than (3).
Experiment proved that in my case, an isolation transformer worked better than expensive power cords, for much less money, and expensive power cords brought NO improvement after the isolation transformer cleaned up the power.
For context, I live half a mile from the nearest commercial user, five miles from the nearest industrial user.
This experiment contradicts the strong opinions of our resident armchair "experts". Use the information as you see fit.
Good luck.
|
You can't go much wrong with Audioquest thunder, X3, and Z3 power cords. Own all three and I'm happy. Also Audioquest Edison receptacle is very nice, grips like a gorilla. 20 amp dedicated circuit Here, run myself, lots saved. All plugged into Audioquest 1200 and the Furman pst-8. Both designed by the same guy.
|
Wow! I am extremely grateful for all of the awesome and practical advice. Very, very helpful indeed.
Thank you all so much for this Masterclass!
Have a great rest of your weekend.
|
I swapped my power Furman Reference Power Conditioner out for Pangea Premier power strips, and I found it was a significant improvement in sound.
Power conditioners are a tricky thing. They help with hum, but can hurt dynamics... and it very dependent on the type of gear and power you have. Obviously anything with switch-mode power will likely need more conditioning and isolation. I'm strictly class A / AB.
Anyway, if you are willing to live without surge protection, I'd suggest taking a listen to your system without the power conditioning. I think it does more harm than good 70% of the time and it will free up some rack space too!
A
|
I'm in a similar situation as OP. Over the past year I've upgraded every component and now have a very nice sounding system with Electrocompaniet AW250R, Manley Neo Classic 300B pre, Lampizator Baltic 3 DAC, Clearaudio turntable w/ Nagaoka 500 cart, and a legacy Musical Fidelity CD player that I run using optical through my DAC. Everything is powered through my Panamax line conditioner which has a fixed PC. And all my PC's are stock. I've been thinking about giving better PC's a try but have been a bit lost in the constant back and forth about whether PC's matter. I think I'm ready to give it a try so will be watching for recommendations on good value PC's and appreciate suggestions. i'm not really sure my budget yet...thinking to maybe buy 3 or perhaps 4 to power my amp, preamp, DAC and maybe Panamax. If I could spend $150 per cord and get something nice it would be a huge win. If I had to spend $250 a cord that would be doable. Could probably even be convinced to spend more on one or two vs the others if I had any idea which would give me the most bang for the buck...Also I'm wondering about my Panamax...is it a reasonable way to go with my system or would I be better off ditching it and going with something else?
|
Easy upgrade for Furman, use Furutech FI-15M and 12 gauge Carol cable you can get from Digikey. measure diameter of your existing power cord and chose the 300 or 600 volt which ever will fit the best.
|
@millercarbon has the right idea. Setup a budget first. Power is the foundation of your system. Start with the wall outlet at the beginning of the list. I would include either changing the power cord on the power conditioner or replace it. Furutech makes some products you could DIY the upgrade on the power conditioner. You could DIY all the power cords in your system with Furutech products. Link for DIY power cords https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha6lakniW28
I know your conditioner, had one. Upgrading power cord was not to difficult. You may need new gromet depending on power cord you choose. It made a huge difference. You may want to upgrade some of the wiring while you have the box open. At the minimum change the connector on the end of the cord.
|
In order to feed the beast properly you need a dedicated curcuit. #10 wire from a 20 amp breaker with nothing else on the cuircuit feeding a singular recepticle. Once that's done you can feed one or two power strips. You can piggy back to two if you need it. Conditioners are snake oil. I also agree with a previous post that after market power chords make a huge difference.
|
