Putting together a reference level system. My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's. For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling? USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
@audiolabyrinth4 on 11-05-2018 8:07am "anyone listened to this laufer teknic running direct to amplifier's?" Yes, I do. I replaced a Sonic Frontier Line 3 (fully upgraded) in 2010 with the 2010 MP, which was much better. My 2017 MP64 16-core preamp output was even better than the 2010. I am waiting on delivery of my 2018 MP64 32-core with solid state / tube switchable preamp section.
charles1dad I can conform the Kassandra is an amazingly musical device, exceptional in the digital world IMO. If anyone is in Spain, I invite them to come to my place and hear it, you will be amazed!
Hi Thieliste, No doubt that TotalDac model is true SOTA. Of all the uber tier DACs discussed here and elsewhere I find the Aries Cerat Kassandra extremely compelling. I just love the design concept and approach to this DAC. It just seems like the type of component that is meant to go directly and deep into one’s musical soul and communicate much passion and emotion. In my humble opinion products capable of achieving this are the most desirable. I haven’t heard it but I can appreciate astrostar’s comments. My gut feeling is this DAC is the antithesis of clinical/analytical/sterile lifeless sound. Charles
My personal favorite SOTA DAC is the Totaldac d1-Twelve mk2 which is the one i will be purchasing next year for my rig.I also do like the Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref II which i auditioned twice.Lampizator Pacific DAC is also worth considering if your looking at top DACs.
David - no sane person (of which I am not one) would constantly change dacs like I have. But this thread discusses the only part of a hi end system whose technology actually affects a discernible change in advancement within a brief time. Thus, in my not normal opinion, the digital front end does need to be updated more regularly then anything else in the system.
That being said, even my system has been relatively static from a digital front end for quite some time. The Light Harmonic Davinci 2 and Memory Player combo is absolutely stunning. And it is VERY hard to coordinate in home auditions of any super expensive piece of equipment that could potentially dethrone one of my digital components.
So, yes David. For most cases keeping your core equipment static and fine tuning is the way to go. But that’s not what this particular thread is about. I am trying as much as I can to offer a comparison to everyone so they can pick what’s best for their system. Posts like AstroStar59 are ENORMOUSLY beneficial in that they offer even more experience with equipment I may have not heard. If others post opinions of equipment I have both heard and not heard, it allows me to comment intelligently as I have a reference upon which to judge their listening style since I know some of the equipment.
Conside this thread a dac resource.
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@mattnshilp , thread followers, and thread contributors: I'm experiencing some 'curious' results and would like your thoughts and opinions.
This thread is primarily about impact / results when a DAC is changed.
I'm finding that changes to my system are bringing more than significant results while keeping, what would be considered a 'basic' DAC, by the metrics applied in this thread, static.
Anyways, it's making me question the logic of DAC changes in 'static systems' vs a 'static DAC' in a 'dynamic system.'
Thanks Astrostar. I have heard the Aries Cerat are awesome. I have not heard one. I would love to. I would agree with your assessment of the dacs you listed. You have a good ear and we hear similarly.
Lordcloud- I have heard the older Rockna but not the newer ones. Getting a hold of some of the bigger European brands for an in home audition is SO hard. If you can make it happen I would love the opportunity.
I’m trying to get an Innuos Statement and a new Antipodes CX/EX server in for audition. I’ve heard great things about both. So far, nothing comes close to my Memory Player.
My prototype DAC update. Spoke with Sam today. He has the cabinet in for the power supply and is ordering the StealthCaps. He's going to extract the DAC from my Memory player in two weeks and then rebuild it and make a lot of changes. I can't wait to get it back and burned in. Sounds like it will be a full month before that will happen, but so far this is such a great DAC. I was told the StealthCaps will take it to another level adn I know he's upgrading the tubes. By putting the power supply in it's own fully shielded box, he will be able to do something special with the power feeding the tubes too. Digital is going through a major transition period right now. I think we are seeing better quality at lower costs.
Has the Rockna been discussed? Not the older one with the inferior MSB solution, but the newer version with their own decoding? I've heard almost nothing but good things about it, and it is praised by many as one of the best dacs you can buy.
Does anyone have any experience with it? Especially compared to the usual suspects (MSB, DCS, etc.)?
I would put forward my DAC on this list, the Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref II. A superb high end DAC, R2R, AD1865 chips (16 of them) superb gain stage with E280F tubes, transformers on the output. I have tried many DACs and this one is special, an end game for me. I have recently also ordered the Aries Cerat Genus SET integrated amplifier and set up my room as a demo room for Aries Cerat in España. I haven't been this excited about digital for a long time.
I have owned or had at home: 1. Pink Triange DeCapo with battery supply Remember this one? A classic and quite radical at the time. 2. Various Meridian DACs circa 1995 3. Various Naim DACs circa 2000 4. A Linn CD12 (borrowed for 4 weeks) (2014) 5. MSB Platinum inc Signature Powerbase (2016) 6. CH Precision C1 (2017) 7. Chord DAVE (2017) 8. Lampizator Golden Gate (2017) 9. Naim CD555 (used item - 2017) 10. Audio Note UK DAC 3.1 (2014) 11. Audio Note UK DAC 4.1 (2014) 12. Audio Note kits 4.1 heavily modded (2015) 13. Audio Note UK DAC 5 (2017)
All of these DACs did somethings extremely well, but fell short in other crucial areas. The C1 for example, initially I was super excited about this DAC, and had it for a full day in my system. But after 3 or 4 hours it began to unravel and I found certain types of music didn't sound good on it, particularly strings and female vocals.Others such as the Naim had great rhythm and drive but lacked soundstage and transparency. The DAVE had soundstage and transparency but lacked weight and realistic timbre. Others sounded too digital in the true sense, a coldness and lack of three dimensionality, boring even. The Audio Note kit 4.1 when modded was actually very good within it's envelope. In fact I have kept that DAC, partly as it is 'my creation' to an extent. But still not there....
Anyone wanting to hear it just PM me, you are more than welcome. I would pitch the Kassandra against any DAC, budget unrestricted.
Thanks Matt. I agree with you on our Memory Player server. I'm really pumped about what they are doing with my DAC. Can't wait until he gets the Stealth Caps in and he can start to build it so I can get my full set up breaking in.
I have an Innuos Zenith mk2 SE feeding a Mola Mola Makua preamp/DAC....Looking forward to your thoughts on the Innuos Statement and the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC...if you can get your hands on them.
sorry for the long hiatus. Work and family take up a lot of time and sometimes leave little room for audio play.
Laufer Teknic is amazing gear. Sam and Mark make a terrific team. Their gear is true high end and they don’t go 6 months without releasing an update or improvement that makes a notable step forward in performance. And they share each upgrade with their customers and most come without charge unless there is a hardware change needed to implement the upgrade. Mark is a software Savant and what he does works and works better then anything else I have heard.
Now, as you all know, I pride myself on that last statement being accurate. And with Antipodes and Innuos newest products I can no longer say I’ve heard it all. I am making efforts to remedy that situation so I can give you all an opinion that is both accurate and CURRENT!!
As as far as DAC’s go, I’m not a huge fan of variable output dacs direct to amps. I see the financial advantages of course. But I have never ever heard a system at any price that doesn’t sound it’s best unless there is an active preamp with gain in the circuit. Maybe the only caveat to that might be Rowland and Bricasti, where the amps and Dacs are specifically designed to work that way and the gain and impedance matching have been accounted for.
That being said, Chord does offer a nice variable out in all of their DAC’s that does as good a job as possible of compensating. Its not ideal, but it works and sounds very good.
Empirical Audio’s volume control is not a solution. It attenuates but doesn’t go down to zero. The DAC is nothing short of amazing though.
To be hoenst, nothing earth shattering has been released recently DAC wise to warrant special attention. I think the new Mola Mola DAC is worth listening to. And supposedly Chord has released a box to increase the processing power of the Chord Dave so now it goes to 11. I have a friend who is a dealer and we will listen to the improvements it makes. I was not blown away by the DAVE (sorry Chord fans). So I’m hoping the extra box fixes it’s issues.
Im trying to get in that Innuos Statement and Antipodes double box music server. I’ll update if I can make that happen.
@david_ten , I'd highly suggest the Chord Dave or the Metrum Adagio. Conversely, I believe you have the Denafrips Terminator which is a high end dac, perhaps you could add a well regarded passive attenuator between the dac and the amp.
No, others call me a fanboy, lol. I hate that term. Hey, we are on a fun forum and will tout what we put our money on. I also audition a ton of gear and will tout what I like or don't like. Then it's up to the reader to figure out how they hear compared to what I like or dislike or any poster/dealer/manufacturer or reviewer.
I now own the Laufer DAC adn Memory Player server. It's the first one 'in the wild' and we they are making constant tweeks and upgrades. We are currently waiting on Stealth Caps to come in and are moving the DAC out of the server. Better isolation etc... It has a well done digital volume control as well as an analog as I will be getting a pair of mono's or separate stereo amp eventually. I wanted that in my DAC. I also like how they listen to me and try to make what I need.
There are other great manufacturer's out here and that's great for all of us. Hey, Empirical Audio makes a tremendous DAC. I loved mine and it wasn't even Steve's top of the line. I am not doing to sell his server that he sold to me since I now have the Memory Player, but he's a genius in regards to audio.
I've heard many other digital products that are impressive. It's a great time to go digital and many of us can no longer play vinyl for mobility reasons (having MS, I can't' keep getting up and down to change things and to keep everything as clean as it needs to be to be in top shape). Also digital does many things better than vinyl and when you lower jitter and take away much of the problems associated with older digital, it can sing.
Thankyou ctsooner, jriggy, bill_k, , snopro, @ ctsooner, I enjoyed reading your answers, I wasn't saying your a fanboy of anything, how ever, I am a fan boy of a few brand's, the way you posted your original post, it seemed you had some sort of a prototype good dac with a regarded volume control, I'm always chasing that set up, that's how I run my main system now, has anyone listened to this laufer teknic running direct to amplifier's?
Oh, you also asked about my affiliation. I have no affiliation with anyone. I put my money where my mouth is and purchased one. I change equipment when it makes sense to me and I can afford to. Folks often accuse me of being a fan boy for companies, but that's not the case at all. I have changed all my brands more than a few times, but I don't change every couple of years like many do. I find what works great in my system and stay with it for some years. I may upgrade within a product line, but that's because I love the house sound and it fits my needs.
Long answer to a short question I guess. It's just a darn good product. I don't own my Ayre QX5 anymore, but I feel strongly that is a must audition DAC in the 6-15k market as it's darn good. Highly detailed and still not bright in any way. It also have a nice streamer built in (not as good as some other streamers I've heard, but darn good) and versatile as heck. For my personal tastes, you need to step up to a Brinkmann at around 18k I think (not totally sure) to get a much better DAC. That Brinkmann isn't spoken about on this thread. I think that's in part because they aren't huge in the US yet and because their folks are probably enjoying their music and not posting on sites like this, lol. I'm not kidding either. Their DAC is special VERY special.
Yes it's the one designed by Mark and sold by Sam. Even their mini server is outstanding based on what a friends who own's one says. It's highly programable. Matt owns the stand alone server and loves it better than any other server he's used.
I'm at a much lower level than you're looking for but who knows. I was very happy with an Exogal Comet Plus until I heard the Mojo Audio Mystique. No contest. The Mojo has an organic, palpable, engaging presentation that is intoxicating. The Exogal makes lovely sound, The Mojo makes music. Goosebumps.
@ snopro, Thankyou for the clarification, that is odd that two companies have a product called memory player, I'm interested in the laufer Teknik, can anyone elaborate on the company, the location?, are they sold in USA?, is there service support in the U.S.?, etc....
@ jriggy, Thankyou, I have a ps audio direct stream memory player transport and separate dac, are you saying the little lighted power buttons on both componet's look like elephant trunks?, lol, how ever, I still have not got a confirmation of my question's.
david_ten2,138 posts @ everyone Any recommendations for an upper tier DAC with a very well implemented volume control? I’m looking for DAC first components (and not Preamps with a DAC module...if that makes sense...). Thanks.
I believe they still do it in their flagship model dacs or cdp. either by user programming or physical links or trimpots. But Wadia, Mark Levinson and the Bricasti M1 used digital domain remote volume controls, but they also had the ability to set the max output gain of the analogue output buffer, so that you used the digital domain volume at or near full output, so there was no chance of "bit stripping" (lowering resolution 16bit 14bit 12bit the lower you go) This is the perfect dac /cdp volume control.
Any recommendations for an upper tier DAC with a very well implemented volume control?
I can second the Metrum Adagio that was already recommended by @bill_k. I owned the Adagio as well as Metrum's Pavane at the same time and after several weeks of side-by-side comparisons, I chose to keep the Pavane and have it upgraded by Metrum to their Level 3, which means the interior build is at the same level as the Adagio, but without the volume control.
The sound of the Adagio is very close to my upgraded Pavane but I already owned a preamp that I like very much and I liked the sound through my preamp just a little bit better than through the Adagio alone. This was probably due to some minor coloration, possibly caused by components in the preamp including AN tantalum resistors in the volume control, Jupiter copper foil caps, Lundahl transformers, or other circuitry. The Adagio had slightly better resolution and both sounded super clean with good staging, tone, bass, and plenty of drive. If I didn't already own that preamp, I would have kept the Adagio and been perfectly happy. There is probably "better" in some way but for a simple solution that gets you off the merry-go-round the Adagio should certainly be on your list.
FWIW, Steve Nugent's well-regarded Empirical Audio DACs also adjust volume by changing the reference voltage. I think there may be at least one more that does that but I cannot remember the name.
Any recommendations for an upper tier DAC with a very well implemented volume control? I'm looking for DAC first components (and not Preamps with a DAC module...if that makes sense...). Thanks.
@toetapaudio @bill_k@ctsooner@guidocorona Thank you. I will look into your recommendations and get back to you should I have specific questions.
@david_ten - If you like NOS PCM DAC designs (no DSD), I suggest you check out the Metrum Acoustics Adagio which is their top of the line. It incorporates a unique volume control implementation which varies the operating voltage of the DAC rather than adding in an additional stage or digitally implemented volume control. It provides a continuous volume control without typical losses or compression most other designs exhibit."
Sounds like a perfect description of the volume control of my Jeff Rowland Aeris... Yes, not the newest DAC on the market by any stretch of the imagination, but particularly when powered by the external PSU power supply, an amazing maker of music.
Dave_ten, what is the budget? I have finally gotten the Memory Player DAC integrated into their server. It's special. They are still working on it and we are waiting on the Stealth Caps to arrive, but It will end up being in the discussion of top DAC's built I think. Soon Matt will have one in his system to play with I think. It's worth keeping an eye on as I think Mark (the designer) is onto something specially. It does have two small signal tubes in it, but the sound is impactful, tons of micro and macro info for that emotional pull on music and it's got great totality so far and it's not broken in and it has many upgrades to come. We will even be pulling it out of the server and it may become a two box DAC. Just not sure yet. I like how they have dealt with the digital volume control, but mine also has an analog one too and in time, we will build that up to a world class preamp. This way I'll be able to run a great stereo or set of mono's off the DAC .
I"m actually shocked about this DAC as I haven't expected it to be this good. I am playing mostly 32/384 and 24/192 cuts. Some are direct from a high end analog rig (not sure of the A/D converter used). I have to say the Memory Player server and DAC has far exceeded my expectations so far and the best is yet to come as the prototype DAC will be much improved going forward. Will keep all posted.
@david_ten - If you like NOS PCM DAC designs (no DSD), I suggest you check out the Metrum Acoustics Adagio which is their top of the line. It incorporates a unique volume control implementation which varies the operating voltage of the DAC rather than adding in an additional stage or digitally implemented volume control. It provides a continuous volume control without typical losses or compression most other designs exhibit.
@david_ten, can I suggest taking a look at the Mola Mola Tambaqui when it arrives later this month. Going by the Makua (pre with dac module) it should be extremely good. £9k in the UK.
@ everyone Any recommendations for an upper tier DAC with a very well implemented volume control? I'm looking for DAC first components (and not Preamps with a DAC module...if that makes sense...). Thanks.
I've heard the new top of the line MSB and thought it was very good. I would have needed to spend more time with it to tell more, but it has promise. Just very expensive. I have heard the newest Rossini two weeks ago (is the brand new one out? If so, this was it. I didn't ask if it was the brand new one as I was auditioning the new Boulder amp so didn't care). It was very good, but like most of the DCS digital, it's a bit sterile for my ears. Gobs of detail and it is very 'fast'. It always leaves me a tad cold in the mids as do many digital products.
At this level you are talking about shade differences. Folks will have their own flavors they like better. I personally need to get my new DAC/Server burned in, but so far on 24/192 as well as 32/384 all in WAV, it is going to be a contender as a ultra high end DAC. It's a brand new design by Sam Laufer's company. Mine is installed in my Memory Player. It uses two signal tubes and dual AK boards for proper balanced design. Very little filtering. I'm going to learn more about it technically, but don't care as I want it to burn in before I make a real evaluation. We are also waiting on the Stealth bypass caps for it so the sound will change again and hopefully for the better.
I'll keep you all posted, but I was concerned about the DAC in the MP, but this brand new design is just sick and it's the first one they've made so far.
Matt, Yes, I'll get a copy of them to Mike. He raved about the new gear and I can't wait to hear it.
My DAC started off as an Audio Note Kit. At the time it was their highest, a 4.1LE.
AD1865 R2R chipAudio Note C core output transformersAudio Note copper foil capacitorsBlack Gate electrolytic caps I built it up and used it unchanged for about 1 year. Then I read about possible mods and I started experimenting. Over the last 3-4 years, I've changed a lot: I've upgraded the output and I/V transformers to those in an Audio Note (finished product) DAC5 Special. The power supply side is now lifted from an Audio Note M8 preamp. I upgraded the capacitors to Jensen silver foil and now there are Black Gate caps in every possible location And the most recent mod is really cool. Since this is a tube DAC, I turn it off every night. The new mod powers the digital board even when the power is switched off. So the digital board is always powered. I did this back in July. When the DAC is on the power light is red - when it is "off" the power light switches to amber.
I did each of these mods at different times and I waited a few months to make sure I liked the results.
It started at about $3,800 and now I'm probably close to $10k after all the mods. When I brought it to Mike's, we both thought it held up well against his EMM DA2.
When I was in high school I remember reading an article in Road & Track about a guy in Germany that modded an early 80s VW Rabbit with Porsche suspension parts and engine from a 928S. Then he'd drive around on the autobahn and mess with people in his "Rabbit". If feel like this is what I have now. It is just an ugly black box, but it sure does sound great. I'll bring it next time I come over to Mike's... Dave
Could you throw your favorites on a CD or thumb drive and send to Mike? That’d be awesome!
You HAVE to hear his Pipedreams with the new Merrill 118 monoblocks and Christine pre-amp!!! Merrill and I spent 2 hours fine tuning his speaker position and his crossover adjustments. It was transformational!!! With the 118 amps, his room is exceptional!!! Like sit and listen all day long exceptional!!
Glad to meet you and look forward to your input. Please describe your DAC and mod’s.
Matt - This is Dave - your neighbor Mike's friend.... A few weeks ago you asked for recommendations for 5 songs used to test DACs - here are 6 that I use.... #1 Four Until Late (Cream - Those Were The Days)#2 Rock My Plimsoul (Jeff Beck - Truth)#3 All Of You (Bill Evans - Solar)#4 Who Knows - (Jimi Hendrix - Band of Gypsys)#5 Maggot Brain - (Funkadelic - Maggot Brain) #6 Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major - (Janos Starker - Suites for Solo Cello)
Every cellist plays that last one, but no one plays it like Starker did...And ignore the first 30 seconds of #5. Maybe not to your taste, but I'm listening for something specific in each of these songs. I'm using a heavily modded Audio Note DAC. Dave
Keithr- I can do the TotalDAC demo whenever I want. But I don’t want to start it until I know I can give it the time it deserves. And work has been crazy. It will come in time. I promise.
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