Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

which album is that and where to download?

Audiolab, send me that tube email!

Paul79 still cannot find the CBS7318.

Jwm, I sent you a message. I also replied to your previous message. You not see them?

jwm, do want to try the CBS 7318?, paul has them!, pricy, the same price as the mullard 10m tubes, cheers.

OK my tubophile friends... Would you really mind continuing this exciting -- yet DAC-unrelated -- convo on some more aptly titled discussion thread? Sorry, but my eyes --- oopsie, meant ears -- are glazing over. G.

UPDATE:

Hi all, I know I haven't posted one of these in a while since my search has sort of ended with my ODSE safe and snug in my rack. But Alex, of APL Audio has been persistent and accommodating with his DSD-S DAC for my evaluation. My initial impressions were utilized to modify the DAC (I will let Alex describe the changes) to something that he thought I would like more, and he was right.

I have had the luxury of listening to my system with a loaner amp and pre-amp for the last 3 weeks that's puts the Uber in Uber gear. I have been enraptured by my wonderful ODSE being fed into the world class Burmester 911mk3 stereo amplifier ($35k retail) and the Burmester 077 pre-amp ($50k retail). The 077 has its optional $5k DAC card, which I will be listening to next week to see how it compares to my ODSE and all the other outboard DAC's I have heard. The 911 and 077 are each truly world class and offer insane performance when used with other gear, but when put together, the 911/077 combination is literally transcendental!

The 911 sounded absolutely wonderful and incredibly engaging with my top tier Rowland Criterion. But when the Criterion was replaced with the 077, just WOW. The walls fell away from my room and I was sitting in whatever venue or recording studio the event/recording happened at. Just wow. On a different level of performance then anything I have heard before.

I am now dying to get the Rowland 825 amp into my system for a trial to see if its the magic of like company amp/pre-amp... Will my Criterion/825 combo sound that good? Or close to that good? I really hope so because $85k retail is a rather imposing number to lust after gear for.

But I digress.

So the DSD-s was compared to my tried and true ODSE on my current uber system with all else the same. And I have become familiar with the Burmester/ODSE sound.

The modified DSD-S was, IMHO, a dramatic step up from its previous iteration. It did still show a slight bright edge on piano at times, but I sincerely believe that will settle with additional burn in. Musical, engaging, articulate and with a wide soundstage that very nicely placed everything and everyone where they belonged.

If I was now deciding between all the DAC's I had, I would put the Aeris and DSD-S on similar ground performance and sound wise. I will admit, that the ODSE still has something about it that grabs me at moments that the other two just don't quite as well. But at the level I am at, i think that could be reversed with different equipment or cabling. All three are excellent and can make people very happy.

The DSD-S and ODSE are two sides of the same coin. Both high quality boutique DAC's that clearly deliver the goods. You can't go wrong with either.... Listening becomes mandatory to make that final choice.

Hi Matt, how long will you have access to the APL DSD-S? As some internals in the unit have been replaced, the slight treble burr is likely caused by new chips/solder and is likely to go away in a couple of extra weeks of break-in.

Guido, I have to return it this Friday. He has been very generous with the DSD-S and it must go to the next interested customer.

I can honestly say that it is a true contender and worth a serious listen. Whatever he did to modify it was significant. And I have to say that his responsiveness to questions is top notch. If this is any indication of his customer service, there are no worries…

If you have the opportunity to audition the DSD-S Guido, I would now try to find time to give it a listen. I would be very curious to hear your impression in comparison to your reference Aeris DAC.

I have had no luck getting any other suggested DAC in for evaluation . I know many of you wanted me to include the Romulus or Pandora. No success thus far. It seams that the only way, in general, to get a DAC in to audition is to buy it.

Matt, will you be trying out the DAC card for the Burmester 077?

G.

What do you guys think of the TEAC UD-501 DSD DAC? Thanks.

Thanks for your feedback Matt, I appreciate it!

The DSD-S was changed from 8x oversampling with adaptive digital filtering to Zero filtering and oversampling when it comes to PCM processing, prior to DSD conversion.

Also, the output stage was re-biased for twice as much higher current than it was before.

From now on, my intention is to offer three options for the DSD-S digital filtering when it comes to PCM processing that will satisfy many tastes.

Just to make it clear, the DSD-S is a midline product. As good as it may be, it is nowhere near the reference DSD-M that has my own DSD to Analog converter, as well as a differential Class-A tube output stage built with a pair of NOS Philips E182CC tubes and custom Lundahl transformers wound with OFC wire.

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi Ltd.

mmm, now you talking what I would likly appreciate Alex-APLhifi, please elaborate more on this DSD-M Dac, your discription sounds quite pleaseing, I'm sure all of us would want to know more, since your mid-line DSD-S dac done so very well in this shoot-out, cheers.

Details on the reference-level APL DSD-M DAC can be found at:
http://aplhifi.com/products/dsd-m

Getting the thread back on track, the thread title is " Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD". I vote for the Vitus MP-D201. I have never heard normal garden variety cd's sound at once so incredibly resolving, smooth, analogue-sounding and tube-like in character. In a word; musical. Moreover, this dac allows you to listen to even rock cd's from the 80's for hours without fatigue. I would say the MP-D201 is atleast 15% better than the Signature Series dac in the SCD-025 (which is already an awesome dac).

Audiolab, how do you know if you would like what Matt likes?This is not a shootout, its a demo report by Matt. You may likely find you font share quite the same opinion if you demoed together.

Melbguy1 - I'd be curious to know whether you've had the chance to audition the recently introduced Berkeley Reference DAC, and how it compares to the Vitus. It's priced at $16K but is supposed to be a new standard which excels at PCM decoding. Thanks in advance for your input!

Ha! My opinion is THE opinion! No other opinion should exists!
You should all agree with everything I say without hesitation or thought!

Bwa hahahaha!

Ehem.

Did I say that out loud?

;)

Melbguy
I can't find anyone in USA to get me a Vitus unit for audition. I was intrigued before and went through the motions. I don't think they are really well established in the USA. At least not on the east coast.

Alex keeps tempting me with his wonderful creations. I will certainly replace by prized ODSE if/when it is sufficiently humbled...

I also look forward to hearing Steve's new ODSX.

10-03-14: Bill_k
Melbguy1 - I'd be curious to know whether you've had the chance to audition the recently introduced Berkeley Reference DAC, and how it compares to the Vitus. It's priced at $16K but is supposed to be a new standard which excels at PCM decoding. Thanks in advance for your input!

Bill, I haven't heard the new Berkely Reference dac, though I had a read up on it. It sounds like it is firmly in the digital/resolution camp (ie: in the same catagory as msb, dcs, emm ect..very detailed but zero groove). Resolution and accuracy are important, but that means nothing if the music is missing soul and emotions. Tube dacs tend to excel at soul and emotions, whilst ss dacs like DCS excel at resolution/accuracy. Vitus is somewhere in the middle, kind of best of both worlds. Though in terms of engineering and build quality, you would not compare tubes to a Vitus product, unless you're talking about Kondo or something like that.

The comparative dacs price-wise in the Vitus line up are the RD-100 (which is a good option if you need a preamp), or new RCD-101 sacd player. Compared to the previous model (RCD-100) the RCD-101 has had an extensive rework including DSD/SACD compatability, a brand new sony drive, better power supply and a much improved dac section. This is now pretty much on par with the RD-100 sonically and amazingly, as good as the old Signature series SCD-010.

Matt, yeah VA have many more Dealers in Europe, but only 3 Dealers currently in the US. Here is a link to US Dealers fyi -http://www.vitusaudio.com/en/80211-North-America

Mel,
I have to agree with your assessment of certain DACs, "zero groove" describes it well. Some have the appeal of a precise laboratory instrument,analytical,clinical and cold. Just lacking in music's joy and emotional connection/involvement.
Based on your impression it's good Vitus avoided this "soulless" presentation.
Charles,

Crazy that this thread is still going! Just wanted to pop in to say that the Rowland Aeris dac that Matt sold to me (thanks again Matt) was not fully broken in when Matt was evaluating it. After putting several hundred more hours on it, it has opened up significantly. It sounded good when I received it, but the output today is something else. A night and day difference. Anyone considering it should keep that in mind when reading Matt's comments on it.

Charles, cheers. I tend to gravitate towards less analytical, more musical cd player/dacs. On reflection, all of my previous cd players have fallen into the latter category including my JVC XL-Z1050, Ayon CD-5, modded/re-tubed Ayon CD-5s & current Aesthetix Romulus. My litmus test as to whether I like the sound of a dac or cd player is whether I feel connected to the music, the sound is smooth and unfatiguing & it brings a smile to my face.

Hi winson, I agree with what you have said, however, keeping up with this thread for as long as I have, I do find that I have alot of the same tast for sound as matt does, cheers.

Mel,a good friend of mine has the Aesthetix Romulus Signature and I've listened to it often(it replaced his good sounding Modwright Oppo 105 and then his Lampizator DAC, very good).The Romulus is truly a natural sounding and passionate music reproducer.
Charles,

10-04-14: Audiolabyrinth
Hi winson, I agree with what you have said, however, keeping up with this thread for as long as I have, I do find that I have alot of the same tast for sound as matt does, cheers.

So you and Mattnshilp must had listening sessions TOGETHER?

Thank you Nickolas, your findings corroborate my own experience with the Rowland Aeris.... At about 800 hours Aeris sounds "quite good", but its magic is not unleashed until the device stabilizes completely.... And that does not happen until at least the 1200 hour mark... But might be even further in time.

G.

Wow, I very impressed that you have this DAC audition thing still going on. Sounds like in impossible situation... Too many choices, the brain can't differentiate all the choices.

You should buy a turntable.

I don't remember exactly now, but I think I had about 1k hours on it +/-

Glad you are loving it, it was an exceptional dac that, I guess, got even better. Cool.

You can't go wrong with any I have heard really. More ear and system dependent then anything else....

I think all these comments on break in suggest that in the main reviewers are not experiencing components as buyers of them know them. Matt should be congratulated on his thoroughness in gather all these units, but were they component really optimized?

10-04-14: Nickolaspappas
Crazy that this thread is still going! Just wanted to pop in to say that the Rowland Aeris dac that Matt sold to me (thanks again Matt) was not fully broken in when Matt was evaluating it. After putting several hundred more hours on it, it has opened up significantly. It sounded good when I received it, but the output today is something else. A night and day difference. Anyone considering it should keep that in mind when reading Matt's comments on it.

What I suspected. Time to revisit when the amp quest is completed? Your experience with the Burmester gear is very telling.....

09-28-14: Ketcham
Hi,

I would like to state that the overdrive se playing red book was significantly better than the emm dac2x playing dsd of the same recording. Better holography, transients and decay. To me more visceral, engaging and organic.

I would strongly consider the sx and either not bother with dsd or have a dsd dac.

I think that's more a matter of what DSD dac you have. How is the Allnic with DSD?

09-28-14: Aplhifi-usa
I would strongly consider the sx and either not bother with dsd or have a dsd dac.

I anxiously awaited the release of a certain Jazz album to be available in DSD. It was recorded in 1958. There are many iterations of it, including a 24 Karat Gold plated CD that you can buy for $300, if you are lucky. Well, I have that CD, as well as the 45RPM vinyl. But you must hear the DSD release.

Alex, which album is that? Have you heard the DSD version of Indian Architexture? I have the 24/88 version and its magic. Also, you posted a show video earlier in the thread. What was the music being played? Sounded like Garcia-Fons....

Matt - Just shipping the DAC will create lots of static charge build-up, not to mention all of the temperature changes. Another break-in is required each time.

This is why even fully broken-in components don't sound their best until the last day of a show like RMAF.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

10-04-14: Charles1dad
Mel,a good friend of mine has the Aesthetix Romulus Signature and I've listened to it often(it replaced his good sounding Modwright Oppo 105 and then his Lampizator DAC, very good).The Romulus is truly a natural sounding and passionate music reproducer.
Charles,

Charles, I agree with your description of the sound of the Aesthetix. I actually considered upgrading to the Signature version, however the 9v pre-out is not a good match with my Vitus SIA-025 which likes a lower gain. After reading about Grannyring's system I also considered his fairly full on mods, but experience has taught me you don't get your money back when you move it on. I think i'm making the right call upgrading to a Vitus SCD-025 with the new DSD upgrade.

Hi Mel,
I'm certain that Grannyring's modifications to his Romulus improved his sound quality(I put the same Jupiter Cu foil caps in my amplifier, they're terrific). But as you correctly point out, improved sound or not, resale value usually takes a hit. I'd have to think that the Vitus CD player is a ideal fit for your system.
Charles,

steve N, that is an interesting post about re-break-in of a componet.

I have been told by all who show at the Audio shows that it takes at least 3-5 days minimum to re-break in a component after moving or shipping. Some take even longer.

The Aeris had stabilized. Guido was quite emphatic about giving it enough burn in time. The more I think about it, the more I am sure it had over 1200-1400 hours on it. I brought it in because of Guido and really wanted it to be my top choice..... Fit and finish are just stunning. I went back and read my notes and the posts on this thread and, in my room, it had stabilized.

I'm really glad the next owner is enjoying it.

After reading about Grannyring's system I also considered his fairly full on mods, but experience has taught me you don't get your money back when you move it on. I think i'm making the right call upgrading to a Vitus SCD-025 with the new DSD upgrade.

Didn't y'all got the memo? It's been a LONG journey and Grannyring finally arrived at his destination so NO more moving on. He will be buried with this current rig.

It's probably true Grannyring won't recover his investment in tweaks but most importantly he's maximizing his system and enjoying himself. I love these guys highest priority is resale value when shopping for new components.

10-05-14: Charles1dad
Hi Mel,
I'm certain that Grannyring's modifications to his Romulus improved his sound quality(I put the same Jupiter Cu foil caps in my amplifier, they're terrific). But as you correctly point out, improved sound or not, resale value usually takes a hit. I'd have to think that the Vitus CD player is a ideal fit for your system.
Charles,

Doing a dandy job. Keep it up, Melbguy1 is working on his Halloween party invite list.

I tend to hold on to audio components for a long time, so in my case resale value isn't much of a factor(as it is for others). I do believe in extracting the most you can(within reason) from components you own and enjoy. Most equitment can be improved sonically with careful thought and objectives. How radical or extensive the modification is an individual matter.
Charles,

Joe, don't worry, I used to be in the modder's camp as well & highly modified my previous Ayon CD-5s with great results. I'm also sure I could get great results modding my Romulus like Grannyring. But every component has it's limitations, and not trying to be cocky, but the Vitus SCD-025 is on another level even to Grannyring's player (especially in synergy with the SIA-025). That player doesn't need to be modded and obviously given VA's excellent engineering and reputation, solid resale is assured. That said, I kept my JVC XL-Z1050 for 18 years before I upgraded. And given the Vitus's modular architecture, that player could do me for the next 20+ years with updates.

Hi Nickolas,

Are you using the USB input on Aeris, or are you feeding it through SPDIF?
What is your source device?
To what device do you output Aeris?

Folks look at my feedback so when I share my next point you may believe me. I have had no problem selling any off my modified gear at the same price and more compared to the same unmodified unit. Not a problem for me in the past. I read about this modification fear all the time and my reality does not fall in line.

If and when I sell my Romulus I will do as well or better than unmodified units. Why? Because I do good work and the mods are smart and add value for the right buyer. Seems to always be the right buyer. My mods were all the very same ones done for the Signature except I used Jupiter
foil caps instead of lower quality caps in one area. Smart choice and the right buyer will know it. You only need one informed buyer!

Bill,
Good points, an "informed" buyer who appreciates the modifications rendered is the key issue. If that's the case then yes you'll have no problem with resale.

Grannyring, I was really impressed when I saw your system. It looks like you do brilliant work. That is the nicest Romulus I've seen, so yes in your case I can see how you're come out square in most cases. Though for most punters, certainly in my case I found that even with a good Audio Engineer doing the mods, I still lost money on the mod side when I sold my player. Ymmv. I'm content that my next player will not need any modding. Cheers.

guido,

i use both usb (Mac mini via audivarna) and coax (cec tl3n transport) straight into 45 tube set amp using high fidelity ct-1 interconnects then into teresonic lowther speakers. it's the best sound I've ever had, the rebook through the aeris is better than the hi-res i've heard on other dac's. as some reviewers have pointed out, the volume control can be tricky going straight into amp, it happens to match my setup though.

Thanks Metbguy1. Perhaps I have been lucky over the years. I do know many folks will not buy modified gear and that certainly reduces the audience for modded gear. I and others like me actually like to buy modified gear that was done right from techs etc...

Grannyring any experience with Khozmo attenuators using naked Z foil vishay resistors in a preamp? There are also Dact attenuators and Amtrans Pots. How about a attenuator using all Path Audio Resistors. Some say Path resistors are the best especially at 35.00 a piece.

I just installed Path Audio resistors in my crossover and so far I am very pleased. I think they make resistors for speakers only. High wattage rating, 10 watt, resistors in lower speaker values only. I am not 100% sure however.

I have not heard or used Khozmo attenuators, but love Shallco stepped attenuators here in the US. They use silver contacts and are very high quality. Many suggest they are a step over the Khozmo. The Vishay Z Foils would be very good indeed. They are very resolving and clean. It all depends what you are after. I would most likely use Shinkoh resistors as they are more musical to my ears. They are richer, warmer and still deliver plenty of resolution. If absolute transparency is what you are after, then the Z Foil TX 2575 is the champ.