Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Alex, EC designs and Lessloss have SD card players

knghifi - Isn't the storage of the data in a buffer after de-packetization in the device sufficient?

What purpose does it serve to store the data in another memory buffer?

I do reclock the data to reduce jitter.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

knghifi - Isn't the storage of the data in a buffer after de-packetization in the device sufficient?

Yes. Not familiar with your design.

Just curious, how big is the buffer or how much do you cache in time domain?

Agear, I didn't know about these two, but glad to see more are doing this.

Though the SDT-M plays up to 384kHz PCM and DSD512, here is something else I've also played with that does 192k and DSD64 in DoP format. I don't think it can be outperformed with a computer either: QA660 SD card player

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Well, if the sound of the PS Audio Bridge is representative of what Ethernet has to offer, count me out. I thought the Bridge, which streamed audio via an Ethernet connection, sounded awful. The PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport was miles better in sound quality, but is not the last word in high fidelity. When I read claims that Ethernet audio is or will be superior to computer audio, my gut reaction is just to stick with a CD transport until a big, reputable audiophile manufacturer comes out with a "plug and play" server that rips CDs, provides storage for backup, is easy to control with an iPad, and sounds stellar without the need for a high cost USB-SPDIF converter. It cannot cost what Lumin charges, and it cannot be from a "mom and pop" operation with one or two people on board. Maybe I am a Luddite...but I don't work in IT and so the inconvenience of getting a computer or Ethernet source up and running seems worse than the inconvenience of getting up from my chair to put a CD in a transport when I want to listen to music. End of rant.

Well said Mcondon, +1

If manufacturers of servers adhere to the UPnP or DLNA protocol, the inherent advantages of a server become moot. Here's why. Data in a UPnP system is sent in packetized, asynchronous form, meaning that it has to be buffered on both ends and has no clock signal embedded in it. So there's no jitter and no difference in the data on either end unless the server or the network is having problems. That's the technical advantage: it removes the problems associated with digital transmission and always provides the best possible data to the renderer ("DAC"). Variables are a bad thing. Just rip your music with good, high quality ripping software and your music should be worry-free.

Servers have some advantages, but are not a perfect solution. They have limited storage capacity and in many cases have the DAC and analog section in the same chassis with a noisy computer server. This is why Boulder adopted the UPnP protocol instead: any true media server can be used, the interface is universal and plug and play, and the server itself has no impact on sound quality because it's streamed asynchronously over ethernet.

The key is implementation. Boulder built the 1021 network player with a UPnP-compliant renderer and optimize the player to stream music. And their own tests comparing high res rips over ethernet vs the same cd played on the 1021 demonstrated ripped music sounds better in most cases (and keep in mind the 1021 is one of the few disc spinners which buffers the music).

With that said, I think servers have enormous potential if you accept their limitations, and if you look at the current top dogs such as the Aurender W20 & The Beast, we wont have long to wait for a real game changer to hit the market.

"if the sound of the PS Audio Bridge is representative of what Ethernet has to offer"

Just speculating, but it might be a case of using an OEM module rather than designing it themselves. I have not seen what they use. This happens a lot in this industry. If enough vendors use the same OEM module and the SQ is mediocre, it can put the damper on an entire technology. Look at the large number of OEM USB modules that are in products for different companies, and the resultant bad experiences we hear about on this and other forums. Both USB and Ethernet are viable mediums and can both sound amazing.

"until a big, reputable audiophile manufacturer comes out with a "plug and play" server that rips CDs, provides storage for backup, is easy to control with an iPad, and sounds stellar"

You might see everything from your big manufacturer except the "sounds stellar" part. Big manufacturers almost never get it right IME. I have modded a LOT of their gear in the past. Even most of these companies use OEM modules rather than designing it themselves. Just look at the history. Its a very few small boutiques that get it right IME. Each designer has an area of expertise, so its really difficult to find a designer that is excellent in all areas. This is why even the big guys often resort to OEM modules. Even if they do design it themselves, the designer may not be particularly strong in the key areas.

Besides, why would a really good experienced designer work for someone else?

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Looked at the PS Audio Bridge. Looks like their own design. Its gotten some good reviews....

Mcondon,
In theory I totally understand your preference for the 'big established" manufacturers, they do suggest a sense of stability and confidence. It's been my experience/observation that it is the "cottage" 1 or 2 man companies who consistently produce the better sounding and more satisfying components. Be it DACs, speakers, cables amplifiers etc. They seem to get it right more often. It could certainly be the case that your experiences differ from mine.
Charles,

11-08-14: Mcondon
Well, if the sound of the PS Audio Bridge is representative of what Ethernet has to offer, count me out. I thought the Bridge, which streamed audio via an Ethernet connection, sounded awful.

I had a PS PWDMKII w/bridge and it sounds wonderful in my system. It also sounds wonderful in 2 other systems I heard so I think the problem is somewhere else in your system. Bridge was best digital input for PWDMKII in terms of SQ.

My complain with the bridge is instability. I have to reboot it daily. Every few hours, it just stops playing. I hold my breath with every firmware release whether if it will work or inferior SQ. I could go on and on ... I'm done with PS Audio until they have their act together.

Alex
Thanks for the link on the QA660. Very nice price! I find no mention of it supporting DSD though... Is this just not updated on their site yet?

Also, I am very interested in your new product, SDT-M. This looks very interesting! Do you have a projected release date? Also curious to your findings in comparison to your other player :)

Melb - some things that are still variables, even with DLNA is the CODECs for compressed music on the computer. They can screw up the SQ. Also, the S/W that formats the data to send to be packetized. That can be screwed-up.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Steve, thanks for your input. It's not a simple equation!

Hi all, I'm in construction and would love opinions, suggestions, comments about my dedicated room build.

I'm posting on my Virtual System page. Please read and comment ASAP to let me know your thoughts. Room is being wired up in next 2 weeks and then rocked.
So changes now=easy. Changes after rock = hard and expensive.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1386218525&openflup&34&4#34

Matt - Here are a couple of simple and inexpensive things for your power:

Have the electrician install plastic flexible conduit terminating to plastic boxes. Get black, white and green THHN 12 gauge wire and have them precut and twist the black and white together using one person holding one end of the wires and the other with the wires in a drill pulling against the other and then loosly wrap the green around the twisted-pair. Pull the wire through the plastic conduit using a fish-tape. then install good outlets like screw-connection Pass and Seymour. No need to get crazy with the outlets.

The plastic boxes and conduit does not restrict the electric fields and therefore does not restrict the dynamic current flows.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

There is a good review of the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 DSDSse in the latest TAS Spring Buyer's Guide issue, with an interesting comparison using the Off-Ramp 5 usb converter in and out of the chain.

Paul,

There is a firmware release for DoP64 support, as well as ALAC. Link here: QA660 DoP and ALAC support

There are just two SDT-M prototypes at the moment, but more are on the way soon. Will let you know the details as we progress.

The SDT-M is a SD card Digital Transport intended to work with our D/A converters. It uses a I2S-like connection, but not PCM. It is all DSD for both PCM formats (converted to DSD64, double DSD128 or quadruple DSD256 on request) and native DSD files up to DSD512.

Of course, if you have a DAC supporting such rates and input you can use it too. Pinout of the 10-pin RJ-50 jack will be disclosed for a referene. For those who like to use it with up to 192k PCM only, there is always the good old S/PDIF output also available. :-)

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi

Jon - could not find it in buyers guide issue.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Do look again.

There are only reviews of mini-DACs in there and the best-rated DACs page does not include the W4S. Are you talking the November issue of TAS?

Steve, the review Jon is referring to, which was written by Steven Stone, begins on page 94 of TAS issue 247 (the "Spring 2015 Buyer's Guide" issue). The Off-Ramp 5 is mentioned on page 98, just before the "Conclusion" section.

Regards,
-- Al

Thanks, Almarg.
Regards. Jon.

Will you be using double rock? Make sure the seems don't line up...I have done the first layer of rock vertically and the second horizontally. The Wadis engineer I spoke with years ago (when we did this at my buddys store) told us to do this..Ceiling too. We used cement rock too ;)...I don't remember the dimensions that we used, but Richard Vandersteen wrote about this years ago and my buddy consulted with him also (he was a dealer for Richard too). we set it all up using his rules of thirds. We used berber carpet and that was perfect. He didn't use much room treatment as he didn't need it. Lost of plants behind the speakers and quilts on the walls...He had a huge wall full of albums on the walls in front of the speakers...it was alike a baffle....there was no slap echo and the bass had plenty of room to breath without loading the room. Please share more about your set up either here or on another thread. thanks.

+1 with Ctsooner, that is the way to build an audio room, all Natural!, no over kill and unnecessary room treatment's that cost alot of money, I have seen $100,000.00 treated rooms that did nothing for me, the spectral, MIT, Avalon, licensed room at Progressive Audio in Columbus, Ohio in the mid 90s.

Yes, double rock with Green Visco-Elastic glue spread thin in between. Glueing rock to studs as well. I was planning on staggering seams. I like the idea of flipping the rock 90 degrees.

I plan on treating corners with bass traps, 1st reflections with duffusion, and front and rear center walls with a combo of diffusion and absorption to reduce slap echo. Gonna float a "cloud" of diffusers on the ceiling in first reflection but need to establish seating and speaker location first. The first reflection diffusors need to be 4-6" deep and horizontal diffusors only. Front and rear to be shallow diffusors in both the vertical and horizontal plane.

My room has absolutely no furniture or cabinetry besides the listening chair and my rack, and speakers obviously. The rack will be located just to my right on the adjacent wall and a scotch behind to avoid any interference with primary or secondary reflections.

Alex, that's a cool product.

Thanks Al. I was looking in the 2014 buyers guide. I guess I don't get that with my subscription...

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Matt - another thing I did in my listening room was stagger the footings and support pony walls under the floor, so the floor was not supported in the middle, causing a second harmonic in the floor.

Also, I used two layers of 3/4" MDF on the floor, glued together, staggered and screwed down, much like the walls of a speaker. It has thick carpet over it. The walls of the room are also sound-proofed to some extent. One has plywood under the sheetrock.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Steve, great advise. Matt, the question I have is where in the house are you located and how high is the ceiling? The dimensions can be just as important as the floor. Are you on cement or studs? now that you bring up the studs, yes, we made staggered studded walls for the rock. I just realized that. 2x6 construction too if I recall correctly.. It's been a long time though, but I remember staggering everything we did. We too glued everything. I remember when we set the room up for the first time, we realized how little treatment we needed. He had the Michael Green ceiling deals in the corners and that was it for the ceiling. He used a swirled ceiling to break things up. Sound stupid, but I actually think it may have helped as I've been in rooms with smooth ceilings and they were a bit too live for the systems that I've heard. Nothing wrong with a popcorn ceiling either. As we all know you can go into a room and set up your system and hear where you need some help. Sometimes you can over damp things and one problem cleared up can create another. that's why I like quilts, large plants in corners and racks of records or a diffusor type of deal in the rear. Everyone has preferences, but all too often the 'professional' rooms are way too damped and lose some timing and pace for me. I hear it often in stores too. one other things I'd recommend for your electrical is to have totally separate and grounded (to earth) circuits for EACH outlet. I did that and it makes a huge difference. I don't use a lot of special stuff for my electrical as the Ayre components have their own built in and that's how they want it to sound. I haven't even found power cables that I love yet. We've AB'd many of them and most have cut the leading edge or messed things up rather than help things. JMHO

1-12-14: Ctsooner
I remember when we set the room up for the first time, we realized how little treatment we needed. He had the Michael Green ceiling deals in the corners and that was it for the ceiling. He used a swirled ceiling to break things up. Sound stupid, but I actually think it may have helped as I've been in rooms with smooth ceilings and they were a bit too live for the systems that I've heard. Nothing wrong with a popcorn ceiling either. As we all know you can go into a room and set up your system and hear where you need some help. Sometimes you can over damp things and one problem cleared up can create another. that's why I like quilts, large plants in corners and racks of records or a diffusor type of deal in the rear. Everyone has preferences, but all too often the 'professional' rooms are way too damped and lose some timing and pace for me. I hear it often in stores too. one other things I'd recommend for your electrical is to have totally separate and grounded (to earth) circuits for EACH outlet. I did that and it makes a huge difference. JMHO

+1

Most professionally done rooms sound like mausoleums. That works well for recording studies but does a poor job recreating a palpable auditory illusion that we all want. Michael Green was ahead of his time, and I know quite a people who have incorporated his tricks to good affect.

I too have dedicated lines with with isolated earth (ionic) grounds.

Hi agear, interesting, please tell me what a ionic earth ground is?, I know what dedicated earth grounds are, and shared main earth ground is for entire home, pardon me, I never heard this term before, BTW +1 on your post concerning room trearments, seen this, done all this, most sounded like mausoleums!, I suppose everyone has to learn from their own mistakes in audio, we all do, the never ending merry go round.

Trying to understand....

Isn't a dedicated Earth ground simply using a shielded grounding wire from the outlet to the panel? So it doesn't directly share it's ground with anything else until it's in the panel? If yes, how does that differ from the standard non shielded ground in the Romex since its a dedicated outlet and doesn't share it's ground with anything between the outlet and the panel? I use plastic single gang boxes, so they don't need to be grounded.

11-12-14: Ctsooner
I'd recommend for your electrical is to have totally separate and grounded (to earth) circuits for EACH outlet. I did that and it makes a huge difference.

11-12-14: Agear
I too have dedicated lines with with isolated earth (ionic) grounds.

Matt, I would advise against this, if I am correctly interpreting that what is being recommended is running outlet grounds to an earth connection other than the one that grounds the service panel. If that is not a correct interpretation of what is being suggested, I'm sure the others will clarify further.

See section 1.2 on pages 7 and 8 of this paper by Bill Whitlock of Jensen Transformers, who is a renowned expert on such matters. Note the concluding sentence: "If multiple ground rods are used, Code requires that they all MUST be bonded to the main utility power grounding electrode." Also note the section starting at the bottom of page 3, "myths about earth grounding and wires."

As explained in section 1.2 of the paper, having earth connections for the system that are separate from that of the main service panel is a code violation, a shock hazard and a fire hazard in the event of an equipment fault, and a hazard to the equipment (or worse) in the event of a nearby lightning strike. And I'll add that it would also be a potential excuse for your insurance company to not pay in the event of one of these disasters.

You may want to start a separate thread on the subject of AC wiring and grounding, which will probably catch the eye of Jea48 (Jim), who is our leading expert here on such matters.

Regards,
-- Al

Thanks guys. My lines are run and I don't want to pull any more 10 gauge romex. I have 4 dedicated 10 gauge lines - each running to it's own outlet.

This conversation is happening on my system thread also. I got some great suggestions for ground loop control if I end up with any issues. My electrical system is VERY quiet since I live on a street with only 10 houses covering over 40 acres. And I had an Eaton whole house surge suppression system installed 6 months ago.

I ran 4 exactly identical lengths of 10/2 romex with the ground wire insulated in its own sub-channel in the romex.I don't think grounding issues will be a problem. If they are, I can always add an Environmental Potentials EP-2750 ground filter to each circuit in the sub-panel or Granite Audio Ground Zero #502 if its really needed.

Here's some interesting questions though...

1) Do you think that the motor system for my turntable needs to be connected to the same circuit as my phono stage or can I just run it to a standard accessory outlet next to the rack? I have a Teres Audio table and the motor is a totally separate module (its actually a trickle charger that charges a marine battery). There is an optical sensor built into the table to monitor speed, but that sensor is far away from the arm/cartridge and platter. The arm and cartridge are isolated and grounded to the phono stage.

I'm thinking its fine to plug it into the accessory outlet.

2) Should I keep the monitor for my computer plugged into the same outlet as my computer (which will be plugged into the "Digitial" dedicated line behind the rack)? or can I run that to the accessory circuit as well?

I'm thinking run it to the "Digital" dedicated line since it's connected to the computer directly with a video cable.

-OR-

should I run an identical length run of 14/2 romex to the sub-panel for a "dedicated" 15 amp accessory circuit for the turntable motor and the computer monitor? It would share a common ground at the sub-panel (which currently only has the 4 dedicated 20 amp circuits).

Hummmmmm......

11-13-14: Almarg
11-12-14: Ctsooner
I'd recommend for your electrical is to have totally separate and grounded (to earth) circuits for EACH outlet. I did that and it makes a huge difference.

11-12-14: Agear
I too have dedicated lines with with isolated earth (ionic) grounds.
Matt, I would advise against this, if I am correctly interpreting that what is being recommended is running outlet grounds to an earth connection other than the one that grounds the service panel. If that is not a correct interpretation of what is being suggested, I'm sure the others will clarify further.

Any two bit electrician could provide that counsel. Al, how do you optimize grounding, or are you one of these flat earther engineers from the 1950s who believes coat hangers are comparable to any hi end cord and any well designed power supply is enough to negate the need for power conditioning, etc? (Judging by your many posts, it seems you are not). I have conversed with multiple dudes like that on other forums, and it makes for an entertaining thread.

My ionic grounding scheme was provided by Lyncole, an engineering company out of California who typically does defense, military, and lab installations.

I think the grounding game is a very interesting subject and worthy of another thread as Al suggested. I have quite a few audio buddies who have toyed with grounding boxes (Tripoint and Entreq) to good effect. The stock engineering response is that the only reason those boxes work is poor equipment grounding schemes.

Matt (or anyone else) will you be at Audio Connection on Sat the 22nd for Richard Vandersteens visit? I'm going to head down, weather permitting. I should be there from start to finish as I have some auditioning to do in addition to the event. I'm in FULL code as to how my electrical system is set up. None of my 6 pack of wall outlets connect in anyway, so I don't get cross talk. I'm not sure what he did, but there is a separate breaker for each one in the box. The electrician is also an audiophile and I don't think he used Romex either. It may be all copper. I honestly don't remember it all, but he had fun installing it all. Said it wasn't complicated or anything. I know I have a huge main box and an aux box too for extra circuits for my wood working shop in the basement.

Matt - make sure that all 4 AC runs are from the same phase in the panel. For your digital, you may want to use one circuit for all of it.

Isolated grounds do work, but as Al says they do not meet code. I have a friend that did this. He put a 6 foot ground rod into the earth and ran wires to all of his audio outlets rather than using the ground wires from the panel.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I ran all 10 gauge solid copper wire. Heavy as hell. My system is fully to code, but I do it myself. It takes me longer then a professional would, but I save a fortune on billable electrician hours and I know its done to my particular standards.

Its not that hard to do a simple system like this. Even the lights aren't hard. I am happy to walk anyone through the process. I have a friend who is a licensed electrician and I am having him inspect everything prior to getting final inspections from the town. Its fun and rewarding to know I did my own wiring for my listening room.

I just need to take mpeg video of the whole room, floor to ceiling so that I can refer to it in the coming years if a change needs to be made. Its always good to have a full video of the floor, walls and ceiling to know where every stud, cable and duct in your walls is exactly located. I did this when I built my whole house and I cant tell you how may times I refer back to the videos since we moved in 7 years ago...

ctsooner - I will call and ask the specific of the meeting at Audio Connection. I would love to go if I can get free...

Steve - Thanks for the suggestions. I definitely will.
I have 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits running to the rack, one for digital, 1 for analog. Each runs to it's own single outlet.

I'm going to pass on the isolated ground rod thing. As I said, I found some simple to implement (and inexpensive) solutions. I'll stick to my grounding bar in my sub-panel...

Ctsooner, based on your latest post it sounds probable that the electrician simply installed what are commonly referred to as dedicated lines for each of the outlets, which is fine.

I had been interpreting your earlier statement, and Agear's as well, to amount to what is depicted in the figure at the top of page 8 of the reference I provided. That is done by some audiophiles, but would entail all of the risks I described.

Matt, that all sounds fine also. And +1 to Steve's suggestions.

Regarding your questions, my instinct would be to connect the monitor to the same outlet as the computer, and to NOT connect it to the outlet powering the turntable motor. I'm envisioning the possibility that if they were on the same outlet some amount of RFI generated by the monitor might find its way to the motor, and radiate from there to the phono signal wiring.

My instinct/guess is the same as yours, though, regarding there probably being no need to have the trickle charger and the phono stage on the same circuit.

Hummmmmm......

Clever double entendre :-)

Regards,
-- Al

congrats mattnship, I did all my wireing to my system, no need for a electrician if you have sence!I have the same set-up a you do, it works!, however, remeber, though a dedicated ground for each circuit does sound better, doing so will not flip each breaker on this scheme when problems occur, thats why it is not code!

The best grounding sceme is to isolate every components grounds from each other in the signal cabling, but use common earth ground for all, so there are no ground loops. I do this using combination of good analog transformers and digital isolators.

I went down to the box yesterday and it does have ONE earth ground for the box. There are two boxes, but it's the same box. He put the smaller one in so that I can easily find the 20amp circuits for the whole loft (where the audio system resides). I will say that the breakers are different from the ones in the big box (rest of the house). Like I said he's an audiophile and knows what he's doing, so maybe he installed 'audiophile breakers' (j/k).......it is all copper wire though.

Matt, he'll be there with his new amp for the 7's. it's an all day deal. my email is ctsooner@alumni.ou.edu if you want to get in touch. Like I said, I'll be there all day. I'm hoping to listen to the Ayre phono pre as well as the Romulus as I think that's what he'll be using on the 7's.......would be fun to meet. Thanks to you all for the info on the electrical. I love learning.

Hi Matt, what is the views of this thread now?

Sorry, is this thread about getting recommendations for a top tier dac for rbcd's or wiring an audio room? Seems like this thread has lost the plot..

240,460 views

It's sort of meandering about. I sorta like it.

Tubes for a bit, then music servers, now a bit on AC wiring. All good. And I'm learning a lot with each wandering.

I'm still cooking my Esoteric K01 so nothing to report until it's done. I'm happy to see the thread finds interesting things to fill the voids in time. The K01 will be done next Monday, 11/24. I will then compare the ODSE to the K01 as an independent DAC as well as compare the Mac/ODSE vs a red book cd played on the K01 - obviously with the same exact recordings (ripped CD file compared to CD itself)

I do have a local guy who can get the Allnic DAC into my room; he's also providing my Vicoustics treatments. And I just may have found a new dealer to work with who, I hope, can get me the Aesthetix Romulus Signature you all have been requesting I hear. I'll keep you updated on all of that as well.

But with a room build in progress, I'd rather wait for the Romulus and Allnic until my room is done.

I swear, Melbguy1, I haven't lost site of the topic. But my search is slow and methodical. And burn in chews up weeks at a time....

I will say that I am not (currently) pursuing the new Berkely top dog DAC since it lacks USB input.

Hi matt,Thankyou, That is big numbers for the views indeed, I personally have enjoyed your thread, going off to all the other topics has taught me a few things as well, like the topic of tubes for digital sources for sure,would be great to hit back on that topic, cheers.

IMHO, the K-01's internal dac is a bit long in the tooth now, as alluded to in another thread.

I humbly predict the following results :-

1) with the K-01 as transport feeding the well-regarded Overdrive SE dac, the SQ of redbook cd will beat out the internal dac of the K-01

2) a cd spinning in the K-01 transport will beat out the same redbook ripped file playing through the mac mini. The K-01 remains a very formidable transport for physical discs

3) VERY high quality redbook recordings on physical discs played through the K-01/ODSE combo are likely to sound as good as most hi-res files played through the ODSE's usb input.

Happy listening!
J.