I'm new to the HiFi world. I listen to a lot of female vocal and classical music. I like both digital and vinyl. I am using a pair of Wharfedale Linton heritage and PS Audio Stellar Strata.
I know this is too broad a question, but with 10K budget, where can I wisely spend my money? I don't mind tubes and I don't mind used either.
I agree 100% . Don’t assume electrical fault, test ! Adjust as necessary setting up dedicated audio circuits. Look at your room size and treatment, Size does matter, Great sound requires comparable acoustic volume. Decide on a preferred music format, research and target product in that regard. As a rule I don’t assume, it generally wastes time and money. There’s many a hand grabbing at your wallet and truck loads of garbage so research and dialogue is a must. Enjoy the hobby and the music.
Listen to Open Baffle, Electrostatic/Planar, standard box speakers.
What I love about this answer is how practical it is. Others have emphasized the critical starting point of speakers and speaker-room synergy. This answer both presumes that and gives you a compass direction -- try basic types of speakers first and establish that preference. Then, look to brands of this speaker, then to amplification. That's very, very orienting advice.
@llid2 Assuming your hi-fi isn't creating unacceptable noise (it shouldn't be), noise comes off the electricity supply, your house wiring and other electric stuff in the house and, for low output MC carts from radio intererence. The amount and quaiity of noise is very variable between locations.
Don't imagine you've got excessive noise if you can't hear it. Switch on your amps and turn the volume up slowly. There will be some noise and it will increase in loudness as you turn it up. But many of us find we can turn it up all the way and we don't find anything unacceptable or over loud even at that volume level.
For the rest, first put your hi-fi on dedicated line(s) taken directly off the incoming supply. Then improve your house earth (ground) post. Try listening again. If you still have excessive noise, buy an active power conditioner. Power cords are passive and will have nothing like the same effect on cleaning things up.
For $10k systems, don't spend much on power cords, active components must be improved first.
I concur that buying two front ends at this level is costly in sound quality. Choosing between analogue and digital at this stage will leave a lot more to spend on speakers and amps.
From my experience, cables dedicated power supply and basically anything on that end of the system changes the listening experience drastically. I agree with David_ten. Power power and power followed by noise. Everything in a system is based on great power, and the endless task of getting rid of noise. Power and noise. Power and noise, end of story in my opinion for creating a good system. I am a professional violinist and can say that without a doubt that elimination of noise (crappy white sound) is what creates an acceptable and somewhat realistic listening experience. Otherwise its all just a non live musical experience.
How many records? If starting out, I'd be inclined to stick with digital streaming. Spreading the cost over two sources plus vinyl media is not efficient.
Sounds like you have a nice setup already... why do you feel the urge to "upgrade?"
That said... perhaps a modest sub just to catch that last little bit of low bass, something like an SVS, which has customizable integration so it's all smooth.
Otherwise, it's usually the speakers to look at first, if you're not satisfied. And, tech has gotten so good that you don't need to spend the entire 10k... See if there's another type of speaker sound you like better: perhaps the new KLH 5 or the widely heralded Polk m700. the Polk is about 2k, and likely has a different sound character than your Warfdales... like the KLH 5s also. These are not outrageously expensive speakers, but are the sort of product that just might "finish" or at least tamp down that urge. Or what about the 10k top level Warfdales, the Elysian? If you wanna drop 10k, why not those... ? But you can actually test drive those Polks or the KLH 5, if you buy 'em from Crutchfield.... they have a good return policy if you're not satisfied.
Please whatever you do, don't blow that cash on fancy speaker wire or interconnects... you can do a lot better looking at the speakers themselves, first.
I really wanted to buy the Wharfedale Linton's for my second system with a Naim Unitilite. I tried them at a dealer who did both, they sounded 'ordinary' with everything I tried, no sparkle, no depth, poor soundstage. My 2 systems both have Audio Physic speakers, which 2 years ago I would have recommended, but their rise in price is simply crazy. In my experience if you are on a budget forget Harbeth's they are much more expensive and not a lot better than the Wharfedales. All however may not be lost the Strata does have dual analogue out facility, you could try a better power amp however the biggest ever improvement I got from my Naim Unitilite, similar to the Strata, was to use 2, not 1, subwoofers. This made the whole system much more balanced. The 2 subs improved sound stage, clarity and excitement. Small agile subs being the best option. I now also use two subs in my main system.
A 2000 watt Giandel Inverter plus a $400 200 amp hour 12V (2500 amp hours) AGM battery will cost you a little over $750.
I’m not familiar with this approach. If the end result is clean quality electricity for the entire audio system then good. Same outcome and principle. Build from the foundation. Then worry about components and speakers afterwards.
#1- Welcome aboard.... lots of great advice here. I was in a similar situation just months ago....take your time, do as much research and listening as u can. Bare in mind, one change in your components changes everything. If u spend 10k on an amp, u may end up hating other parts of your system. Enjoy the journey!
An inverter system is better than any dedicated line, wall sockets, wires, and conditioners......you can add a Puritan filter and dedicated ground rod/filtering. afterwards for otherworldly transparency.....I make no money with this....just so excited for what it does. here is more info:
I have to agree with Ozzy62, tubes are great and will add incredible warmth & depth to your system. Depending on your listening idiosyncrasies, tubes take a while to warm up so the first 10 minutes or so is intrinsic. Personally I enjoy my listening time using a Mcintosh Mc275 & C2700. Vinyl is super when your focused on listening but getting up every 20 minutes to flip the Lp can get quite monotonous when catching a few Zzzz’s so I also recommend a streamer. Currently I’m using (Also a Mac) a MB20 Streamer and I can listen for hours without interruption. Whatever your flavor, I suggest you invest in system level components that will allow you some latitude so you can add to it as your listening sensitivity evolves. Additionally a pair of subs (in my case B&W 608’s) to compliment Harbeth SHL5+ speakers greatly improved the bottom end. Just Saying.
There’s a pair of DeVore Gibbon Super Nine’s for sale here on Agon for $7800. Those would be a major upgrade over the Linton’s. Seller is in Atlanta.
It is probably worth a drive, and in addition to those… just take your time and listen to many speakers.
The problem with that approach is that you are also listening to the listening room, and everything else, + biases and dealer magic… so it is not 100% representative of what you may end up with at home.
Hence, just make a list of what to listen to, and starting moving slowly and measured, and @stringreensuggested.
it is not unreasonable for it to take months to years of listening to speakers, and with more speakers now, than in the past… (QED)
Hello llid2! Don't be in a hurry to spend your hard earned $$. Keep the Lintons! If you are not too shy to DIY, you can build amps & preamps from kits and save a bundle. If you prefer factory made gear, used is a great way to go. A classic preamp can be had for a reasonable amount (MacIntosh, Marantz, NAD, Rogue, etc) paired with a new power amp (Starke Sound Fiera4) and good cables (the Lintons are good enough that you can hear the difference) (Zavfino, Wireworld). Look for a used Oppo disc player (good luck on that one). Do you have a computer (laptop or desktop)? You can use that for a CD player with a good DAC ($300 - $1500). Save some of that $$ to buy music! Very Good TTs can be had for under $1000 (here's where used gear can save you a ton of $$) with a new cartridge (from the dealer who sells you the used TT - free, seriously careful installation). You have no idea what shape a used cartridge is in. It could have a chippd stylus that will carve your vinyl into junk on the first pass. Don't take a chance! Contact me for more if you wish. Happy listening!
Most of us build systems over decades. Typically this is how folks that really love high quality reproduced music with budget constraints do it. Each step should be carefully planned with the result of having a synergistic system with each component of roughly equal performance at some point. Then you enjoy for years until you can upgrade to the next level.
I think your question is great. I was there once. It would be great if you posted photos of your system and venue (under your UserID), this can really help in assessing and recommending equipment and placement.
Lots of good advise (minus the spend on power cords and interconnects). If this is part of a journey to create a great system an say you have $10K now and can come up with another $2.5K every year… then you can work towards a really great system in three or four years… with very substantial improvements every year as you get there. The time frame is important, in that, there is lots to learn. Read, listen, read, listen, repeat. If this appeals to you… we can really help. Your goal will change as a result of listening and making changes.
Typically I will always start with speakers to define “the next level”. Speakers typically are the most important component. They really define the sound. They must be sized for the space… and the technology capable of making you really happy. So for instance… if you were into rock… B&W speakers… heavy on the bass… then you choose electronics to complement them… massive MacIntosh amps. The first 30 years of my pursuit of the high end was dominated by planar speakers: electrostatic (like Martin Logan), ribbon (Apogee), and Heil (Air Motion transducers), but the last twenty has been traditional dynamic cone speakers.
You like a really good midrange and a good bit of detail…so a natural / musical speaker… Totem, Sonus Faber could fit the bill. See my systems… I think, these would make you happy… but are too expensive right now.
To get to where you want to go… unfortunately you will want to replace everything. Combined units are not good and you have budget speakers. This means there are a lot of appropriate paths. Certainly making it confusing. There are a lot of good choices.
One might be $5K speakers, $2.5 Preamp (definitely would not hurt to go for $3.5K used here), and a $2.5K amp. The preamp should be tubed… I would recommend a used Audio Reseach LS for the preamp.
Education: Read Robert Harley’s The Complete Guild to High End Audio, get a subscription to The Absolute Sound and Stereophile. Go to any local high end audio stores… listen. Tell them you are at the beginning of a search… you need to get a feel for the sound you are looking for. If you can find a high end audio dealer that can coach you… that really helps. I have had three fantastic relationships with owners of audio stores. My audio guy in Portland, a friend for 20 years, has dropped by a pair of Audio Research Reference 160 monoblocks… which I have been using for 8 months ($32K).
Once you get the basic components… then you can work on interconnects and cables.
if you're going to spend about 6,000 for speakers I would look at the monitor audio gold 200s generation 5 they're very good very natural three-dimensional sounding.
@david_tenIt's easy to recommend better speakers. As long as you love looking into a dirty, unkempt room (in this specific case with everything else held static).
Take your Wharfedale speakers to any well executed system that is amp appropriate for the Wharfedales and you will be floored. Bring a top end speaker, regardless of spend (again amp appropriate) into your system...the results will speak for themselves.
In my opinion David’s earlier recommendation to address the quality of the AC power is both fundamentally wise and will establish a foundation for the entire audio system.
1 Dedicated 20 amp AC line exclusively for audio use.
2 Good quality AC wall outlets.
3 Good quality AC isolation transformer/conditioner.
4 Quality well implemented cables to enhance/improve electrical and signal transmission.
A number of these essential items can be purchased used to further limit cost.
This will set in place a very crucial aspect of developing a splendid audio system. This can be successfully accomplished for well under 10K dollars. With this ground work done, one can expect to get the best performance from any subsequent component changes and upgrades. Address the fundamentals first.
I agree with @jasonbourne52 and@stereo5 as I also wouldn’t spend 10K on power cords and conditioners. For improving AC power, I would recommend a dedicated 20 amp line for audio only. 😎
Your Wharfdale Linton's are a very nice speaker in their price range so the question I would be asking is does your amp allow your speakers to fill your room with the volume and quality of sound that you enjoy?
The Strata is not a bad integrated and it appears to have sufficient power but if it is not properly driving the Linton's you could also have a problem going to a larger floor standing speaker.
The Ortofon Black is a very nice cartridge for you turntable also.
Since you’re not yet sure of your tastes yet and don’t have many viable options to go listen, I’ll recommend a system the shoots straight down the middle of the fairway (i.e. neither overly bright or warm) that will very likely blow you away. The best part is if I’m wrong you can turn around and sell it with little/no loss. This is the latest Joseph Audio Pulsar ll (upgraded) in gorgeous sapele wood finish WITH STANDS and a near-new Hegel H390 integrated amp. I heard Pulsars driven by Hegel at a show and the sound was absolutely sublime. Read the reviews of each to get an idea of their performance/sound characteristics.
You don’t need to be dumping tons on cables at this point. This looks like a very nice power cord and is dirt cheap — I’m actually buying one myself. 8AWG silver-plated copper, Teflon dialectic, and rhodium-plated plug for $39 1.5m and free shipping.
It's easy to recommend better speakers. As long as you love looking into a dirty, unkempt room (in this specific case with everything else held static).
Take your Wharfedale speakers to any well executed system that is amp appropriate for the Wharfedales and you will be floored. Bring a top end speaker, regardless of spend (again amp appropriate) into your system...the results will speak for themselves.
I also wouldn’t blow 10K on power cords and conditioners in this early stage of your system. If you have a desire to upgrade your speakers, I would do that first. Once you find speakers you like, I would then look for a good quality integrated amp to drive it. If you are looking used, you can get much more for your money, but choose the speakers first. I have found the Lintons to be a bit polite sounding with anemic bass.
once you have the speakers you want, (I would budget around 6K or so for speakers), you could then decide on a good integrated amp. A Parasound Integrated comes to mind at under $3500 or if you want a tube integrated, a Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated would set you back about the same money, $3500.00
At a glance I would suggest you keep the Strata and sell the Terminator. Assuming you also keep the Lintons you could then seriously upgrade your turntable/cartridge/phono preamp. Or you could also sell the Lintons and get something like the Eminent Technologies LFT8c, they are a much better value then the Magnepans, and still upgrade some areas of your vinyl setup, get some good cables and an equipment stand to boot.
Thank you all for your patience with a rookie. You are so kind. @gladmo, I agree with you 100 percent on research thoroughly and move slowly. And, thanks a lot for the link. I find it really difficult to research thoroughly as I live in a small town with only 1 serious AV shop 150 miles away. That's part of the reason why I can't answer @soix question about the sound characteristics I'm looking for. I simply haven't had the chance to listen to a lot of HiFi equipment. In fact, may I ask how you guys do your research? Do you try to listen to everyone of them and compare before your purchase?
I guess I am just in a very early stage of my HiFi journey, like @david_tensaid. All I recall was when I switched from $100 speaker to Linton, I was like WOW! when I switched from $500 amp to the Strata, I was like WOW! I am looking forward to one step further.
I would shop speakers. I've never heard the Wharfdale Linton speakers so I am not making a value judgment on how they sound.
While money doesn't always translate into better sound, the point of diminishing returns with speakers is, IME, much higher than the Linton's cost.
Both your PS Audio Strata and Terminator DAC are multiples more expensive than your speakers. Outside of acoustic treatment, speakers tend to have the most direct impact on what you hear.
For 10K you can get some great speakers. Depending on what type of sound you prefer there are dozens of excellent companies. Salk, Daedalus, Spatial Audio, Magnepan, etc, etc.
@llid2 It is not that their priority is "even higher than speakers and amp"...it is because power is fundamental and foundational and the linkages (synergistically) between components are critical.
The power side will pay dividends, no matter what you do in the future.
The stage you are at lends itself to learning and growing. I would put my focus on that...that is, learning and growing. Incredible results will follow.
With a 10k budget I’d clear the decks and start fresh — sell what you have to offset cost of the new system. THE single most important question is what sound characteristics are most important to you and what improvements are you’re looking for. Without that critical info this is nothing more than a crapshoot.
Yes, david_ten, I can feel the exciting times ahead! What you said just blew my mind: 10K on power and cables?! Their priority is even higher than speakers and amp? I guess I need to do some homework first...
Your step of asking specific questions here of experienced audiophiles is a good one. My suggestion is 1) don't rush your research, 2) research thoroughly, learning what to ask and how to respond to requests for more info, as there are many aspects of the upgrading process and even more opinions about it, and 3) again, move slowly.
The benefits of moving slowly when making purchase decisions as a beginner far outweight the fleeting gratifications of just getting something different, and quickly.
Keep what you have. Since you have a DAC in the Denafrips Terminator, one could justify replacing the PS Audio DAC/Integrated....but I would not rank this as a top priority.
Instead, focus on the power side. The wall outlets and your power cables, perhaps a power supply. I'd sink the full 10K there...but if you are not comfortable going all out on the power side, split it between power and interconnects and isolation.
You've got good components. The journey is in and about bringing the best out of them. You are at a great starting point. Exciting times ahead. All the best.
Thank you, jjss49, for all your suggestions! I looked at harbeths and I found magnepans appealing too. I looked into magnepan 3.7 before, don't know if my current Strata amp could be temporarily used on them and seek replacement one or two years from now.
1) the best harbeths you can afford (with correct stands), then a hegel amp to drive them - the best harbeths are very large though
2) the spendor sp100 (older or newer versions) is another excellent speaker that does vocals, jazz and classical oh so right - also a large standmount
3) then there are magnepans, get the best ones you can afford, provided you can place them correctly in your room (and leave money for the right amp though)
there is very good press on the new mission 770, but i have not heard them yet
all 3 mentioned above -- correctly set up in room -- will substantially outperform the wharfedale lintons in clarity, realism, and size/seamlessness of presentation
Thank you again for all the suggestions! I am definitely not opposed to replacing the strata. In fact, given my taste of music, I thought about used AR REF3 (~5K here) and used Accuphase A50 (~5K on the music room). I just don't know if the upgrade can be heard with the Lintons.
Well if you are not opposed to the idea of replacing the Strata, I would take that 10K and upgrade to a better amp/preamp combo. You already have a Terminator, so you don't even need the onboard DAC of the Strata. You might find this alone would give you quite an improvement even with your current speakers. And for sure it will be welcome at such a time as you do replace the Lintons.
Another option, since you have the digital side of things pretty well covered, is to upgrade the Rega and the PS Audio preamp. Honestly I could make a case for either.
I guess my biggest question is I'm not sure which upgrade I should begin with. I feel like my front ends are already too good for my amp and speakers. If I begin with speakers, I'm not sure if the ps audio amp is good enough to drive them. If I begin with amp, I don't know if I can hear any difference given the speakers...
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
