2008 RMAF – – – all things analog.

I'm in Colorado Springs on business and will drive up to Denver for the show tomorrow and fly back home late Saturday. I hope to see some of you guys around!

Hi Guys,

I've returned from RMAF 2008. I will try to post my thoughts in a day or so. I didn't take as many pictures or get to visit as many rooms as I did last year.

For starters, I really enjoyed the time talking with folks and listening to some fairly well setup systems. One thing is for sure, there are many flavors of system setups that will appeal to the tastes of the majority of attendees. So, some systems you will like and others you will not.

Dre

I will give more detail when I get time soon.

Classic Audio Reproductions All Field Coil Speakers, Oswaldmill Audio, and Vivid Audio Speakers room, were actually the only rooms I really enjoyed. These rooms were miles ahead of the other rooms, not really even close to me. But I too will look forward the wide range of opinions to come. ; 0 )

The Classic Audio Reproductions will be delivered to my house this week! I hope my room can handle them.

I would also like to mention I did not like one of the 500K rooms, however, they would be great PA systems for a Techno Bar.

Congratulations, David!
Brian

It was great being there, and a first for me. Our room sounded as well as we expected, but the best thing of all was being able to put AudiogoN names to faces.

Meanwhile, I am soooo tired.

Win

We should also thank Cello (Larry) and Vetterone (Steve) for putting the Agon get together on.

Hangin out with Jeff, Thomas and Reinhard and the High Water Sound crew was a blast for me. I loved the sound. I also saw first hand the huge undertaking it is to put a room together and show off your gear, so I have a lot more respect for the dealers who attend and show at these events. Well done Jeff!

Hopefully people like us can continue to afford these toys in our current economic conditions and keep these dealers and these great shows alive.

Paul

Well said, Paul. I accomplished what I hoped to and then some, so although attendance was down a bit, it was exciting. And as always it was fun to associate names with faces. I recommend RMAF way over CES for those not in the business.

Too busy catching up at work for a full report. Quick impressions...

A huge thank you from Paul and me to Larry and Steve for the A'gon receptions at "Garcia's". Friday night was great, Saturday night was better! I got to meet many A'goners for the first time. I didn’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve!

BEST COMPONENTS
Win's (Mosin's) Saskia turntable. WOW! I expected a lot and it's much better. We brought an LP specifically chosen to reveal certain shortcomings which we'd predicted. The Saskia proved us wrong by playing it beautifully. Macrodynamic pace and microdynamic timbre were both rock-steady through transients of every description, the best speed performance of any table I've heard. Win's beauty deserves a better arm and cartridge than it had, nothing but the best in fact. My vote for Best Component in Show. I'd only want to hear it in a quiet environment with top class companions before saying it's completely worth the rather impressive asking price.

Reinhardt Thoress' 300B mono amps (in the Highwater Sound room). New to me, but they made extraordinary music.

Odeon Speakers (being driven by the above amps), a completely involving musical performance from very small floorstanders. Proof again, if it were needed, that efficient, easy to drive speakers and a great low powered amp are the key to clarity and musical honesty.

Audio Kharma speakers (here and there). If only they did bass, they do everything else so well.

BEST ROOMS
Highwater Sound (room 1116), with the Thoress amps, Odeon speakers plus Thomas's TW-Acustic Raven and four tonearm/cartridge combos. Fully integrated sound, slightly softer than a Kharma or a screen but not so much that we objected, and fully engaging on each of our three visits. A room worth coming back to. Paul's vote for Best Room in Show.

Oswaldsmille Audio (room 464), with Win's table, Schroeder Model 2 + Soundsmith Voice (this table deserves much better), a little Tectron amp and the only large horn speakers Paul and I have ever been able to tolerate. Not only did we tolerate, we stayed for nearly two hours, more time than we spent in any other room.

INTERESTING STUFF
Nordost Quantum QX2 and QX4 power circuit treatments/conditioners/thingies. We're still puzzling out how they work, but work they do.

MISSING STUFF
Wish Coincident speakers had been there. Something I haven't heard but want to.

OTHER STUFF
Room after room that sounded boring, wretched or downright painful. Paul's long time fantasy of buying a certain speaker was shattered: we heard it in three rooms, ran screaming from all three. Somebody must enjoy them.

BIGGEST/SADDEST MYSTERY
I know show conditions are tough, but why would a premier speaker manufacturer whose products I know are good, plus a premier electronics manufacturer whose products have impressed me in both my system and others, showcase their elite models using a mid-market CD player. I suppose some other arrangement must have fallen through, but they should have begged, borrowed, bought or stolen one of the umpteen top shelf digital players floating around the hotel. As it was, they spent a fortune on the largest ballroom in the show to demonstrate the ability of superb electronics and speakers to reveal the inadequacies of a third rate CDP. High hopes going in, very sad going out (about 30 seconds later).

MOST FRIGHTENING
Frighteningly expensive speakers that looked like robots on LSD, and sang like them too.

MOST FUN
Meeting so many of my friends, dinner with Tim (Piedpiper), watching Paul get schnockered at Tri Mai's free single malt reception (now that's a class act), seeing Chris Brady's new tonearm and hearing his enthusiastic explanation of some of its features, watching Thom and DocSavage not panic on Thursday night when he realized the phono stage they'd just delivered was in fact a line stage and he couldn't play anything but a 60hz hum, learning that Vacman, Dave Slagle and another guy we met are near neighbors so we can trade visits, discovering there was a Starbucks in the lobby so I didn't have to drink the so-called coffee in the restaurant at breakfast, sleeping in on a weekday, chatting with other audio geeks while waiting for the ever stalled elevators, etc........

Great time! Thanks to all who make it possible.

Doug,

It was very nice meeting you and Paul; I also happen to agree that the Oswald Mills room was entirely engaging and gets my vote for Best of Show; I spent more time there than in any other room - aside from perhaps the Highwater Sound rooms, both of which I enjoyed considerably (although for different reasons - Jeff brought great LPs, and had a mono cart). Win is doing something quite right with his Saskia table, and the entire system was extremely revealing yet tuneful, capable of exquisite low-level resolution with a temporal correctness that was nothing short of open-reel quality. All this with 2 watts of 2A3 - cool. I also liked the full-range Feastrex room in the back-loaded Urushi cabinets - I thought the system had coherency in spades, even with a digital front-end. There were a few other things here and there that made me linger for a bit and I'd say on whole, this year featured more good-sounding rooms than last year's show.

My thanks also to Larry for the Fri/Sat evening GTGs. Fun was had by all (despite Garcia's mediocre "margaritas" which tasted more like Slushys to me..) and it was nice to finally attach some faces to the usernames. Until next year...

-Richard

Twer definitely a pleasure putting faces to names, and thanks again to Cello for his kind facilitation.

Aside from all the human connections, A'gon member and otherwise, that are always a stimulating and gratifying aspect of the shows, there were a few standout rooms for me, in various capacities. Intuiting which components are doing what, in the context of a system and room, is always an interesting sport. Doing this without reference discs is a losing battle. I brought a CDR of minimalist acoustic reference tracks including a couple that I engineered myself, as well as a wonderful test pressing of Analogue Productions Li'l Hatch LP, which impressed and revealed wherever I went. It shouldn't be too surprising how many rooms had minor to major set up problems, from accidental channel reversal to phase problems, not to mention the usual room reflections in the midrange and bass.

It was a major coup to connect with Todd Garfinkle of MA Recordings and hear his treasure trove of stunning CDs of mind blowing music form his world travels. Beautifully and naturally recorded, they came to life through the always magically nuanced VivA Solista amp and Trenner and Friedl Ella speakers, although not my favorite model in their line. I came home with nine CDs, and that from someone who rarely buys anything but LPs anymore. Another highlight was hearing live unamplified music up close and personal in the Soundsmith room, associated with a charity recording project that should be quite special from a number of angles.

I was gratified to hear how well the Wilson Benesch Speakers coupled with a new DeHaviland integrated push-pull amp. There were a number of successful implementations of Lowther style drivers that didn't exhibit the mid treble peakiness and lack of bass, albeit usually supplemented with woofers. One of the best of show for me was the Sante Fe Audio room featuring the Continuum Criterium/Copperhead table/arm fitted with a PC-1 mated with Wavac electronics and Lansche Speakers. The system was delicately articulate and dynamic through the entire range. No surprise there.

One interesting demo sticks in my mind in the always entertaining Acoustic Revive room of the Ultra Low Frequency Pulse Generator. Although the sound, both before and after, was not great, the difference with the device activated was astounding to all present, and better.

So many rooms... so little time.

Hello Doug,

I was also at the RMAF and had a great time getting to know new people as well spending time with old friends. I agree with you that the sound at the Oswaldsmill room was among the best at the show. However, I’m puzzled by one of your comments.

Win's beauty deserves a better arm and cartridge than it had, nothing but the best in fact. My vote for Best Component in Show.

How were you able to separate which components contributed to or detracted from the wonderful sound in that room? I have listened to Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge in several highly revealing systems. In all of these systems, the Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge didn’t appear to be mediocre but rather clearly outperformed the previous arms and cartridges. It wasn’t even close. I believe the Schroder arm is nothing but the best. And while the Voice is not the best cartridge I have ever listened to, cartridges that bettered it carried a much higher price tag. The Voice at its current price seems to be a steal.
Thanks for your quick review. I am eagerly awaiting your in-depth report.

John

Before I forget it, many thanks to Cello and Vetterone for making possible the wonderful evenings. I had a great time in the two-for-one room!!!

John

Hi John,

Great question.

How were you able to separate which components contributed to or detracted from the wonderful sound in that room?

Separating which component is contributing what in an unfamiliar system is indeed difficult, often impossible. No argument there.

That said, there are certain types of sonic damage that only a turntable (or tape deck) can produce. These are in the domain of “temporal correctness”, as Palasr put it just above. Pitch accuracy and stability on held notes is a function of platter rotational speed. Nothing else in an audio system damages pitch like a platter that can’t maintain speed accuracy and stability. The same is true of the harmonic relationships produced by natural instruments. LP’s can be chosen to test this, and I brought one such with us - specifically to test Win’s table.

No TT is perfect of course, but the Saskia came notably closer in this regard than any table we’ve heard. Except for the Saskia, every table we heard at RMAF exhibited audible errors in this area, some worse than others of course. (Dan_Ed joked in an email yesterday that he’s surprised we liked anything!) We walked out of several rooms just because we heard the table speed wavering, and that included tables costing north of $20K.

Prime example: any table that uses a rubber(y) drive belt will be speed inaccurate by definition, and the effect has always been audible to us in any system. Even the excellent, three-motor TW-Acoustic Raven suffers from this, though it’s better than most rubber belt drives and the slight softness of the speakers in that room helped mask it. The HRX in the Soundsmith room was worse. Hope that’s enough examples, I don’t want to trash anybody’s favorite table.

I have listened to Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge in several highly revealing systems. In all of these systems, the Schroder arms and the Voice cartridge didn’t appear to be mediocre but rather clearly outperformed the previous arms and cartridges. It wasn’t even close. I believe the Schroder arm is nothing but the best. And while the Voice is not the best cartridge I have ever listened to, cartridges that bettered it carried a much higher price tag. The Voice at its current price seems to be a steal.

When I said Winn’s table deserves top class components I meant it literally and without regard to price. Win was using Jonathon's Schroeder Model Two. Like you, I believe that arm is the best in its price class, but that doesn’t make it top class or “nothing but the best”, as you put it. Frank himself wouldn’t claim that or he’d never sell a Reference.

As for the Voice, we may have different sonic priorities.

To start with the Triplanar is a more capable arm than the Schroder, with all due respect.

Having spent years in the service sector repairing audio gear, I don't think I would agree that just because a turntable is belt drive that that means it will have a speed variation (at least, one that is measurable). So far the turntables with the least amount of measurable speed variation have either been belt or direct drive (and in the case of the latter, the table in question is the Technics SP-10).

I would point to weak motor issues as being a common problem with belt drive machines. Its something you cannot get away with in an idler drive, which otherwise tends to be a noisier drive system as the motor has greater acoustic coupling to the platter. If you put a strong enough motor on a belt drive machine, you can get W&F specs that are below measurability. I'm not a fan of servo-controlled systems as they tend to 'hunt' for the correct speed (a common problem with direct drive and many belt systems).

So while I agree that many belt drive machines have speed weaknesses, it is not accurate to say that they **all** do.

Good analysis Doug, and I know you are aware that quite a few temporal disturbances can come from electronics - different sorts of disturbances than can (in general) be attributed from mechanical sources (tape drives and turntables). I'm emphasizing this point mainly for those who might be glossing over your prose.

There is a type of timing disturbance that many do not perceive as speed stability, but rather as IM distortion. I'm sure you and Paul have heard this as you worked up the belt stiffness hierarchy. I once posted a link to a review of the Rockport Sirius turntable by the ever verbose Peter Moncrieff on the topic of IM distortion. Here's the link along with some introductory comments by me: http://www.galibierdesign.com/rants_06.html.

IM distortion can occur in a circuit as well. It's the usual place we think of it (as opposed to a drive system). These distortions can mask themselves as mechanical timing errors as well.

I'm coming over to yours and Raul's side of the fence with respect to iron. The Atma-Sphere OTL gear I had the privilege to live with at the show was a second such exposure that demonstrated how difficult it is to work a musical signal through some wire wrapped around a hunk iron. It can be done artfully (and you have every right to like it), but the effect is still there.

Phase (timing) relationships are very difficult to maintain throughout an audio system and power supply tuning is another area that can really destroy these subtle timing cues if the designer is not skilled. I've yet to be able to fully get a handle on distinguishing this causality reliably, but rather by comparison, component swapping, and extrapolation.

One of the more brilliant power supply designers is Dennis Fraker of Serious Stereo. Say what you will about the source components they have to lug to the show from the "wilds" of Livingston, MT, but his power supply design is nothing short of revelatory.

I've heard Dennis' 2A3 amp (sub 1 watt output) in the room of a customer, and have never heard such dynamic breadth and shadings in an amp with less than ca. 20W output when driving Azzolina bass cabinets (he uses the extraordinary Ales compression drivers up top). Of course, the overall efficiency is set by the bass modules, and I'm well familiar with these bass modules.

When a power supply starts to peter out, you experience a vague motion sickness type of effect as the presentation begins to congeal and waver in both time and space.

Don't underestimate cartridge matching (I know you don't) when you're talking about phase relationships and tempo. It's about a whole lot more than determining the resonant frequency. With each passing year, I'm coming to understand the relative strengths of the Triplanar and the Schroeder. I don't mean to leave out other fine arms in this discussion, but it is these two with which I have had the most experience.

Like Ralph, the evolution of my taste has taken my preference to the Triplanar (and by inference the great Micro Seiki and other arms of the past). I'm coming to see a philosophical junction between OTL's and what the Triplanar does so well, equally as I see an affinity between the best transformers and Schroeders. No one can tell you what to like ;-)

Still, it starts with the drive system, and I wish I had the opportunity to hear the Oswald Mill room. The nature of these shows is such that we are tightly bound to our rooms as exhibitors and must use our friends' ears as proxies. For this, I am most appreciative of your comments, and we seem to be hearing the same things.

This Summer, we began a drive system project as well, and we have been working with the same circuit designer with whom the boys from the Mill have been working. This controller has made it to our short list of candidates. I see real promise in these drive systems, but there's quite a bit of evaluation to be done and I'm not ready to toss out the legacy controller for perhaps 18-24 months ... if at all. Time will tell.

There's quite a bit of work to be done here, but I digress. These are great times for analog.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Dougdeacon et al...Another point I'd like to raise..Unless a record is flat, one hears pitch wavering coming from the tonearm traversing the undulations of the warp. Many tonearms' effective length is varied at the rise and fall of the cartridge. My experience is that the flattest records are warped to some degree, and therefore, the choice of a ring clamp, or vacuum table would be on my short list.

Doug, can you give a quick detailed description of the types of music where you hear speed inaccuracies on rubber belt tables? And do you not notice this on some kinds of music e.g. rock.

Thanks Terry

Wow, lots of stuff here. Thanks all for your ideas.

Ralph,
I'm 100% in agreement that a well matched and set up TriPlanar will outperform a well matched and set up Schroeder, including the Reference and certainly a Model Two. A TP on Win's table would provide arm stability and adjustability to match the table's speed stability and apparently silent noise floor. That'd be quite a treat, and was the whole point of my comment that his table deserved a top flight arm (and cartridge). I didn't name names to avoid diverting the discussion into a tonearm war, let's hope we don't go there.

Stringreen,
No argument about warps and their sonic effects, depending on the arm, but the speed variations I'm talking about are in time with the music (stylus drag induced), not in time with platter rotation (warp induced, possibly). No reason one couldn't use a ring clamp on a Saskia. I had one on my Teres and it was a big benefit.

Terry,

Rock (or any artificially amplified and mixed music) is much less transparent than top quality recordings of acoustic instruments. The kinds of time errors I'm referring to would be inaudible on most rock recordings, in even the best systems. (They're much too fine to be measured by any strobe either, so don't ask me to measure them.)

The most revealing LP's of all (to our ears) are original/authentic instrument recordings, such as those recorded by Christopher Hogwood and his Academy of Ancient Music for L'oiseau Lyre (Decca recordings, pressed by Philips in the Netherlands).

It takes a system with exceptional clarity, low distortion and low time domain errors to play these LP's without making them sound like fingernails on blackboards. Many people hear that and assume the fault lies with the instruments or the records. They're wrong. The fault invariably lies with the reproducing system. In a really good system, this kind of music is simply amazing to hear, but it's not easy. It took us 3-4 years to work our setup to the point where such LP's were even listenable.

Most people don't listen to this I know. But there's no tougher test for a system that I'm aware of.

Ralph

You have repeated the Furphy about belt drive motors being "weaker" than idler motors. To use examples from this thread, each of the motors from the HRX has about 3 times the output power of the motor in the Saskia.

Doug

interesting how an interest in early music and an interest in speed stability appear to coincide. I (used to) sing as a countertenor and became fascinated by the music of the period of the great castrati.

Unfortunately the only L'Oiseau Lyre recordings I have are unlistenably noisy. They're as rare as hen's teeth over here, despite the label having been established by an Australian.

Trivia: the name means Lyre Bird in reference to the local bird (Menura Novaehollandiae). There are several musical references wrapped in that name - the lyre the British thought the birds tail formed, its famous ability to mimic any sound it has heard and the fact that one habitat near Melbourne is bisected by the Melba highway, named after the soprano.

Quiddity, take another look at my post. I merely pointed out that a lot of belt drive machines get away with using weaker motors, not that **all** of them do.

The motor I use in my machine has a lot of torque and behaves very much like a second flywheel in the table. It is the Pabst motor from 40 years ago- one of the better motors to be installed in a turntable. FWIW the l'oiseau lyre LPs sound great on it- despite being belt drive.

Doug, if you really want to get the inside story of what sounds right on an LP, I strongly recommend that you take a recording from the mics right to the finished LP. Do it with a 2-mic recording of natural instruments, like you mentioned. This is very handy for developing a reference because being at the session itself, you will know exactly what the recording is supposed to sound like.

BTW although we have sold a number of our 'model 208' turntables (http://www.atma-sphere.com/products/208.html), its not a regular production thing for us by any means nor have we any intention of making it so. It just seemed an obvious update path for the original machine.

Doug...just a comment on the elasticity of the belt...I guess thats why the rim drive makes the VPI's sound so much better.

Ralph

Sorry for jumping on you but this keeps coming up and it's just not true. The Papst motor ex the empire TT has less than 2 watts of output power. Even the small Hurst motor and the Airpax (Linn etc) have more power (and therefore more torque) than that motor, the motor ex the Garrard etc etc.

Whatever you are hearing it's not motor torque that's causing it.

Hello All,

I'd like to correct one misnomer regarding the OMA room at RMAF this year. The Schroeder tonearm on Saskia was not a Model Two. It was a Reference SQ that Frank built specifically for Saskia.

Jonathan Weiss
OMA

Hi,

The arm model error was an easy oversight, so it is entirely acceptable in my mind. What is important to me is that a conversation has been spurred on regarding the merits of the frontend of any system. It will always be a "different strokes for different folks" deal, but at least people are beginning to consider the topic on a different plane. That's the key. If I have managed to develop a turntable that can illustrate the difference, I am thrilled. If not, I'll just try harder. In any event, the passion of the music is the driving force.

As far as drive systems go, I am perfectly willing to concede that a fantastic turntable can be built using any of the available means, and perhaps some we haven't thought of, yet. The trick here is to avoid the mistakes of the past, and improve upon what we already know. Of course, it helps to have a few new ideas spring up along the way.

By the way, Doug, I am ecstatic that you and Paul like my turntable, and that you went to the trouble to tell the guys here!

Win

Quiddity,

We've gotten virtually all our (hundreds) of L'oiseau Lyre LP's off ebay. They're readily available from sellers in the US and Europe. Intercontinental postage can be a killer, but at least these LP's are almost invariably in perfect condition (since you and I may be the only two humans who actually play them!).

Speaking of counter-tenors, among our other most-difficult-to-reproduce LP's are Harmonia Mundi titles featuring Alfred Deller doubled by a recorder, especially one recorded in an echo-ey, stone space. Most systems (including ours during nearly three years of trying) couldn't avoid mushing the pure and similar but slightly time- and timbre-differentiated tones into an inharmonious hash. Frightful and sometimes literally painful. It's only in the last year that our system's been able to reproduce that LP with real clarity and enjoyment.

I used to carry it when visiting other systems, but I got thrown out of the room too often. Again, it wasn't so much the fault of the music as the inability of the system.

Jonathon,

My apologies for mis-remembering your tonearm, which was half the basis for my comment that Win's table deserved top flight companions. So many rooms, so much gear...

FWIW, I'll stand by that comment relative to the cartidge. Win might remember the first thing I said after we'd listened for a bit, "You've proved once again that a great table (and arm) can do amazing things for a mediocre cartridge."

I can only imagine how your room would have sounded with a cartridge having real speed, clarity and neutrality. Of course if you'd done that I might still be sitting in Denver! :-)

Win,

Just reporting what we heard, good and bad, though not naming many names in the latter case unless required when discussing the good. Keep on trying. You've produced the first rim driven table that works for our ears and priorities, and it does so brilliantly. I was sure that Vivaldi LP would expose a weak spot based on the emails you and I traded several months ago, and I was thrilled to be proven dead wrong.

Doug

Doug-

It was great getting a chance to meet you and Paul on Friday at Garcia's. Thanks to Larry (Cello) for making the get together happen. I enjoyed putting faces to names.

There was much to like at RMAF this year and much that was disappointing. The biggest surprise for me was a digital based system in the Hilton: CEC belt drive transport driving a Lessloss DAC w/volume control, into 845 based Mastersound amps from Italy and speakers with a billeted aluminum tweeter that was adjustable for position. The speakers were from Germany - Kaiser (sp?)

On to analog: The TW Raven in Highwater Sounds room sounded very good to these ears. For the first time at RMAF I actually enjoyed the music in the Continuum room. I agree with many that the music in the Oswald Mill's room was right on a lot of levels, as was the LP playback in Mike and Nelli's room via the Brinkmann Balance/Lamm ML-3/Coultrane Supreme.

Tape playback on the Technics 1500 sounded good in the Synergistic Cable room via the Vivid Loudspeakers. I am surprised that there were not more comments posted yet about the resonance treatments that Ted Denny and company were showing. Design appears to be along the same same lines as the Acoustic System of Frank Tchang, but at a lower retail for a complete system. They had several sets available at a "show special" price that were gone by Sat. night. One of the members of my listening group bought a set and I will be anxious to see what they can do.

The production version of the Symposium Panorama speaker looks very nice and sounds good too, but at around $110,000/pair.

Disappointing: The new Focal Grand, the Acapella Triolons. Every year I look forward to hearing Audio Limits large rooms with big ticket products, and every year I am disappointed. The Clearaudio TT and Goldfinger cart should sound much better than it does. I don't think they know how to set the table up properly. It always sounds as if the VTA is way off, and the people running the demos are not inclined to adjust it, even when asked.

Once again, it was great seeing so many of you there - I liked the Two-for-one room at Garcia's a lot!

Slipknot1,

I wish I met you there. Couldn't make it friday night but did Saturday. Your impressions are identical to mine and your comments identical as well. The Mastersound Room sounded incredible at the Hyatt. The Symposium Speakers have me more than tempted. But.... they need the long wall which I can't do. I also wish they had SET amplification on them to hear what more they are capable of, although the Emotive gear is no slouch.

I was intigued at the Saskia turntable until I looked a bit further and found that the price was $36,000. Great sound aside, maybe it's time to question the prices of some of this equipment. I'm sure the R&D and build quality are top notch. Well, they should be. How do you arrive at a price of $36,000 vs. say $15,000(still equally ridiculous) This amount will buy you an entry level BMW with thousands of moving parts and thousands of pounds more raw materials. Don't get me wrong, I love audio equipment and I'm fortunate enough I could write a check for two of these tomorrow if I wanted to. I just can't justify it. I'm not trying to pick on the Saskia. It's just one example of how out of hand this can get if you're not careful.

Sonofjum,

perhaps you should look into designing cutting edge products and making them by hand in very small quantities r a very limited market for a living and see what prices you come up with. I think you may find that your income to work hours ratio is what's ridiculous. Those who care to push the edge and have the scratch to do it will always be the envy and/or subject of misunderstanding of those who don't. Some people might not appreciate someone practicing their instrument for 6-8 hours a day for little or no money either. You do what you gotta do.

I mean no disrepect to the designers of this product and I realize I chose the wrong place to post my opinion. My enthusiasm over cutting edge stuff like this is quelled when I realize that virtually no one can afford it.(raised in a hard working lower-middle class farm town) I appreciate people practicing/working for 6-8 hours at a time for little pay more than you know. Unfortunately, those aren't the people who will ever benefit from something like this.

Sonofjim,

you have my sympathies, but I'm not convinced that the challenges of the economics of this situation are best solved by lowering the prices of the upper echelons of this cottage industry. When as many Saskias sell as do BMWs, I'm sure we'll see lower prices. Some would have it that the Technics SL1200 is your answer. I think if you compare the two you'll find out why the Saskia has two zeros added to the price. I know it's hard to imagine how that is justified but if you actually looked into it, it would come into focus. Sorry to jump on you, but it's an all too common oversight.

Sonofjim,

You understand the economics behind making a cutting edge, top class product for a very limited market, so calling the price "ridiculous" wasn't quite fair. How about, "unfortunate"?

An entry level BMW wasn't a relevant comparison of course. That product contains little cutting edge technology and it enjoys substantial, worldwide sales volumes over which tooling costs are defrayed; rather like a VPI table but on a vaster scale since, unlike turntables, nearly every household owns a car. For a meaningful car analogy, consider the Bugatti Veyron or a Formula One race car. Like the Saskia, these products involve original technological development costs apportioned across tiny production runs. Also like the Saskia, the average person will never own one. C'est la vie...

True. Unfortunate is a better word and it is a beautiful table. Maybe it will lead to similar products at prices more within reach of the majority. Let's hope so.

Quiddity, your 2-watt figure regarding the Empire motor is incorrect- by a factor of 10. At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts.

If you turn the motor on for just an instant and then try to stop it by grabbing the motor shaft with your fingers, you stand a good chance of the motor spindle cutting through your skin. You can turn the turntable on while holding the platter so it won't move, then turn the unit off, and then release the platter- the flywheel action of the motor will set the platter spinning.

Obviously it needs no help getting the platter up to speed or keeping it on speed, regardless of the music or tracking weight imposed. The speed stability of Empire turntables has long been one of the best in the business. That is one of the things that made them such a good candidate for update.

I think you have to view something like the Saskia as an artistic statement, unlike similarly priced Wilson speakers which are mass production merchandise, and therefore more appropriate to your BMW analogy.

On the other hand, in what way is an idler drive turntable cutting edge technology?

I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?

I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine?

Sonofjim,

" ...Maybe it will lead to similar products at prices more within reach of the majority. Let's hope so."

I hope so, too. Saskia is a different beast, though. Still, maybe someday it will lead to alternatives that are within reach of more people.

Atmasphere,

"At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts."

I'm sure Mark will be along, but my understanding of that particular motor is that it is a hysteresis eddy current motor that uses a capacitor, so that it can be run on single phase mains. Otherwise, it is a three phase motor. I believe Mark has made controllers for it which are successfully used by some Japanese customers. Anyway, the current draw is near thirty watts, but the output is substantially diminished because an eddy current motor is particularly wasteful with energy. It purposefully wastes the bulk of the energy by leaking between phases. This may appear to be a bad thing, but the motor is actually smoother running as a result...cogging is far less apparent. So, I take it that Mark was speaking of "applied" power, not consumption. My motor is even more wasteful, but it has twice the torque. The benefit of both motors would be more appropriately considered to be their moment of inertia, which is, as your example notes, rather impressive. To sum it all up, synchronous used in turntables are typically less wasteful than hysteresis eddy current ones, so one that is in a smaller package can actually be more powerful when measured by ordinary means.

Macrojack,

"I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?"

Yes, and no. It is true that it is traditional in many ways, but I tried to break some eggs, too. There are some new twists.

"I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine?"

Would Saskia be a substantial difference to you? That would be for you to decide, of course. One person who does own the SP-10 MKII has listened to Saskia extensively, however.

Here...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1220542524

All that said, I believe the most important thing is that you enjoy the music for its passion. When I had nothing more than an old Dual 1019, which is many times inferior to the SP-10, I still listened to records, and I enjoyed them. It is nice being able to actually hear the decay of a piano note, however. :)

Best,
Win

Dear RMAF friends: Nice to read how much " fun " all of you had on the show not only hearing several different ( first time ) audio item/systems but more important meet each to other Agoner's: a unique opportunity!, I hope to attend next time.

There is no doubt that the Saskia TT is something to hear in the future and regarding the accuracy-speed stability TT performance is a little unfair to judge in a show environment specially for the belt drive ones that are the TT design that can/could " suffer " more at the shows on that regard due to a " dirty " electrical supply where the direct drive and idler drive designs " laugh " about ( for what posted Ralph his 208 is a healthy one too. ).

Obviously that the people that are showing the belt drive TTs have to have more care about and more care on the TT set up regarding accuracy-speed stability.

Any one of us are very sensitive to changes on pitch due to TT speed minute changes specially with instrument alone recordings: piano, horns, female voice, etc, etc, IMHO we don't need a " special " recording to hear small changes on TT speed.

As a fact I heard it on my Acoustic Sigature TTs when the drive thread is near the end of its life use and on the Micro Seiki too but when the drive thread is on " target " I can't hear any anomaly that I can say comes from a TT speed changes even with two catridges running at the same time, sometimes I can heard/hear that pitch changes that I know for sure comes in the recording and not due to my belt drive TTs.
In my direct drive Technics/Denon ones I never had any trouble about other that comes in the recording it self.

I heard Walker/Raven/Kuzma/Sota/SME/Rockport/Amazon/Well Tempered/Avid/Simon Yorke/VPI/Verdier/Voyd/Basis/Galibier/Garrad/ in home audio system or in a very well audio dealer set up ( I forgot Teres at Doug's place ) and that " pitch " TT anomaly almost never appear, in all those TTs set up the owner really take care about.
I heard too set ups whith some of the TTs name it that present/appear that pitch anomaly, so the set up is critical.

Regarding the stylus drag that Doug mentioned like one cause for the pitch anomaly is something controversial and till some one can/could prove/test/measure it in a scientific way IMHO ( and with my respect to Doug ) is only a " myth " , here I have to believe in measures more than " words ", a measure that can tell me which kind/level of speed change ( if any ) can suffer a 20-30kg Walker platter ( example ) due to stylus drag ( VTF: 1.25grs. ) at 33 and 45rpm.

Well, anyway great thread with very good " reviews " on the show from each of you: congratulations!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Great show reports and thanks from across the Atlantic !!!

Dear friends: Some additional thoughts/experiences on TT accuracy/speed stability.

I prefer the DD TT concept and Idler one but I like the BD too. This one IMHO is the more " delicate/critical " on set up to achieve its top performance.

Like many of you know or already posted here the speed accuracy and speed stability in the very short time are two of the main subjects and targets in any TT.

IMHO in any good executed TT design we can achieve those speed targets but in the BD TT type we have to take care more in deep on the set up, my experiences about told me ( in no importance order. ):

to mantain ( checking time to time ) in pristine/clean condition the motor(s) pulley along the " belt " ( any build/typematerial ) it self.

to mantain in pristine/clean condition the side/around platter where the " belt " spin ( try not to touch the side platter with our hands because we can/could leave different kind of " dust/residues " that migrate down the side platter and could interfere with the interaction between belt and platter )

to mantain and check ( time to time ) in/the perfect level both: the TT and the motor TT.

to be sure to stay right on the distance between the motor and turntable that the manufacturer recommend.

if there is a place where is important to have a electrical power supply conditioner/regulator IMHO our TT(s) must be connected through it.

check that the speed on the TT is precise: 33 1/3 rpm and 45rpm. Sometimes we buy a TT that right from the beguin has speed problems, so we have to be sure that at least it has speed accuracy ( other than speed stability ). I remember years ago that the Avid Acutus and one of the Rega TTs were reviewed and those units show inaccuracy on the speed it self ( not on speed stability ), this is more common that what we think about.

any " belt " of any kind and of different build material has its own " compliance/elasticity " value and like a cartridge compliance: it will perform right on target till settle down so we have to check about time to time, specially when we change it. How much time that " belt " mantain its top operation characteristics? I can't say it, we have to be " alert " about.

some " belts " change its characteristicis when the temperature change so we have to take care about.

Obviously as first step we have to follow all the manufacturer advise on the whole TT set-up subject.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Doug: +++++ " (stylus drag induced), " ++++

+++++ " accuracy and stability on held notes is a function of platter rotational speed. Nothing else in an audio system damages pitch like a platter that can’t maintain speed accuracy and stability. " +++++

I have to return to the subject because this is at least the thrid time that you post ( on other threads ) about stylus drag/speed stability issue and IMHO when someone is so repetitive on a subject could tell me that that is what he is experienced about in his audio system or that have facts that prove what is posting about or maybe the " whole problem " comes from other " source ", the analog sound reproduction is very very complex to understand every single parameter and its relationship between all them. I don't know either if in reality someone convince you about more that you heard it.

About the stylus drag that you states affect the platter speed stability I would like that you think for a moment on this:

a 20-30 kg platter that is spining at 33 rpm and where there is a " belt/motor " that it is trying to mantain that speed or a DD high torque motor doing the same.

then think in a stylus with a VTF of 1.5grs line contact shape and 12cu on cartridge compliance that is " running/tracking " through the LP and suddenly " find " a heavy transient where the stylus goes on because the stylus does not stop on the transient but follow a head.

then think that the stylus drag/friction on those tansient could be in any place on the recording: out the LP, in the middle, at inner groves or anywhere.
I point out this because if you try with your hand to stop a running ( onn ) Walker platter or a Tehnics Sp-10 you can see that it is more easy ( well not so easy at all ) trying to stop the platter if your hands are at the outer of the platter than at the inner side. The same for the stylus example.

try to think too on the complex process about because in my example the stylus shape is line contact: what about a eliptical one or other shape? what if instead of 1.5grs the VTF is 0.80grs? what about if the compliance is 30cu instead 12cu? what about if the tonearm type is dynamicaly balanced one instead static one? what about if the tonearm friction is 20grs or 10grs? what about...? what about... ?,, really complex fro say the least.

Now, do you think that that pitch/speed platter un-stabilities that you heard comes from the stylus drag ( between other things )? , could you thing that maybe comes from other " sources " that he stylus drag? can your common sense confirm about?

Unfortunately there is no ( or at least I can't find it ) measures about where tell us the whole true.

I don't want to disturb you I only want that something that for me is a " myth " ( like many others in this beautiful hooby ) till can/could be tested on a scientific/measure way does not be take it like an absolute true specially for the " newcomers/rockies " to this forum where the important people like you IMHO have a critical responsability to give the best " help " to those new people and cetainly to many of us that does not have the whole know-how.

I don't think, like you, that the ones that think ( like me ) that sometimes that wavering comes in the recording are totally wrong because not only for what I already posted somewhere and what I posted here but because exist errors in the recording process as there are errors that comes directly from the " players/musician ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

I spoke with AJ Conti at length today regarding the stylus drag issue and it is basically BS.

I encourage any interested reader to contact AJ directly for the straight scoop from a person strongly educated in physics and mechanics not an amateur audiophile.

Dear Bill: Like always that you follow my posts and give some answer about: when I'm talking on " oranges " your non-sense answer is about " ocean/road " or what ever that does not have any relationship with the main subject.

This is what I posted:

+++++ " Regarding the stylus drag that Doug mentioned like one cause for the pitch anomaly is something controversial and TILL SOMEONE CAN/COULD PROVE/TEST/MEASURE IT IN SCIENTIFIC WAY IMHO is only a " mith " HERE I HAVE TO BELIEVE IN MEASURES MORE THAN " WORDS " , a measure than can tell me which kind/level of speed change ( if any ) can suffer a 20-30kg Walker platter ( example ) due to stylus drag ( VTF: 1.25grs. ) at 33 and 45rpm. " +++++

+++++ " try to think too on the complex process about because in my example the stylus shape is line contact: what about a eliptical one or other shape? what if instead of 1.5grs the VTF is 0.80grs? what about if the compliance is 30cu instead 12cu? what about if the tonearm type is dynamicaly balanced one instead static one? what about if the tonearm friction is 20grs or 10grs? what about...? what about... ?,, really complex fro say the least. " +++++

+++++ " Unfortunately there is no ( or at least I can't find it ) measures about where tell us the whole true. " +++++

I respect to AJ Conti as well any other people " amateur " or " pro " and with al respect to him and any one else if he does not have a scientific measure about I really don't care what he or you have to say in favor ot that " myth ", Bill facts/true measures not " words ", can/could you understand it?

The subject is extremely complex and maybe you can't understand it yet, so like almost always with you IMHO it is useless to continue argue with you.

Bill you are almost convince me that you are not the intelligent/wise person that I name it in the other thread!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

There is no question that stylus drag does cause speed variations. The only question is if the variations are large enough to be audible. Our ears are remarkably sensitive to extraordinarily small errors in the time domain. With digital audio it has been well documented that tens of pico-seconds of jitter is easily heard. That seems vastly too small to be heard, but yet it is. With analog it is no different. Very subtle changes anywhere in the drive system are easily heard. Different belts, pulleys and even component quality in the electronics all make a notable difference in the sound. If capacitor quality can be heard in a motor regulator circuit (and it can) then it's not much of a stretch to imagine that stylus drag would also be audible.

Regardless of the theory, what is indisputable is the fact that many techniques targeted to reduce the effects of stylus drag produce audible, positive results. Stylus drag may or may not be the culprit for audible degradations that we all hear but to me it seems like the most logical explanation. It is imprudent to categorically dismiss stylus drag without evidence.

Platter mass cannot reduce the effects of stylus drag. A massive platter makes speed variation shallower but also spreads it out over a longer period of time. So the speed variation is really of the same magnitude but has a different distribution.

Dear Teres: I don't dismiss in anyway stylus drag, what I'm saying is that that stylus drag ( that certainly exist, no doubt about. ) from my point of view and in my examples: Walker/Technics TTs can't make a speed variation that you or any one also can say: ¡ hey that pitch change was due to the stylus drag !, that's all.

+++++ " to imagine that stylus drag would also be audible " +++++, of course is audible in many ways: tracking distortion, noises, etc, etc but the point is about changes in the platter speed stability due to the stylus drag.

What happen if some one give us a scientific measures ( why don'y you do that, you are a TT designer and I think must be interested about in a wide manner than me. ) about where we can prove/test that the stylus drag really affect in a way that everyone could hear it with out mistake, measures at different levels and in different conditions: like the ones I already posted.

My subject here is that " words " in this critical/precise subject are not enough to prove it. I don't know you or any one else but IMHO I need some tests/measures to be " true " of what is really happening down there.

For me is an important subject due that we already finish ( well almost ) our self tonearm design and we are on the cartridge and TT design. Right now we ( Guillermos and I ) don't have the time to go in deep for our self about but certainly we could send/give one of our TTs to Technologic University on México ( Science and Enginnering Division ) that was the one that already evaluate our tonearm bearing friction between other things.

IMHO and in this special subject what you think ( words ) or what I think ( words ) about means almost nothing about the real TRUE, I'm asking for this not a subjective approach. Of course that if you tell me: come here and hear the Teres top of the line TT and hear this speed un-stability ( pitch change ) that it is due to stylus drag, well this is a different approach and if not scientific could make a difference on what I'm talking about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

i certainly agree with Teres that stylus drag is real and audible, it varies based on the complete tt system, it's noise floor and how flat the Lp is.

i listen to an Lp on the top belt driven tt's and then on the Rockport and there is a difference in musical foundation, flow, continuousness, and ease on peaks. there is no escapeing from the benefit of (near) perfect speed and stability. it is only in the comparing that you hear this.

this is not to say that overall a belt-driven tt might not be preferred to a direct drive; but all other things being equal (which they almost never are) a properly executed direct drive has the advantage. 'properly executed' is the tough part.

i'm not qualified to argue theory but i know what i hear.

Teres would be in a great position to talk about this issue as he builds tt's both ways that are otherwise the same.

Dear Mike : I'm not saying that the stylus drag is not audible certainly is what I'm saying is that I can't say ( only in a subjective way with out scientific measures ) that due to stylus drag a TT platter change its speed, that's all.

Now, like I told to Chris if you tell me that your Rockport platter sometimes and due to stylus drag ( not because other kind of source like LP imperfections: LP not flat. ) " suffer " changes in its speed well I want to hear it!!!!!! if that really happen is fine with me and for that very first moment that " myth " disappear from my mind, easy.
Mike, that " fact " is happening in your Rockport? and if it is happening : how do you know is for the stylus drag?. Btw, Chris same questions for you.

Thank you in advance for your answers.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Sorry: +++++ that due to stylus drag a TT platter change its speed and that speed change is audible, that's all " +++++

this is how it can read it.

Raul.

Dear Mike : I'm not saying that the stylus drag is not audible certainly is what I'm saying is that I can't say ( only in a subjective way with out scientific measures ) that due to stylus drag a TT platter change its speed, that's all.

Dear Raul; i would assume that top level belt driven tt's have similar performing arms, plinths and even suspensions to the Rockport. some have vacuum hold down and even an air bearing. but none have the Rockport motor, controller or servo. therefore i do relate much of the fundamental difference in the performance to the speed issue.

i used to have the Rockport Sirius II which was belt driven....as good as it was in many areas......the dd Sirius III is quite a bit better. better in ways i've not heard other tt's match. my Technics SP-10 Mk2 and Garrard 301 do have elements of the dd magic of the Rockport.

does stylus drag result in speed changes? something is happening which gives dd a big advantage. what other factor could do that?

Now, like I told to Chris if you tell me that your Rockport platter sometimes and due to stylus drag ( not because other kind of source like LP imperfections: LP not flat. ) " suffer " changes in its speed well I want to hear it!!!!!! if that really happen is fine with me and for that very first moment that " myth " disappear from my mind, easy.
Mike, that " fact " is happening in your Rockport? and if it is happening : how do you know is for the stylus drag?. Btw, Chris same questions for you.

it is hard to isolate individual design issues unless you are like Chris and are making design choices and isolating drive approaches.

in the last year i have invested in reel to reel tape decks. i have an EAR modified Technics RS-1700 which sounds very very good. it's the same one that Philip O'Hanlon was playing 'The Tape Project' tapes on at RMAF. i recently recieved my Studer A-820 RTR machine after considerable time and expense in reconditioning.

again; as good as the EAR Technics is (and the fact is it probably has better output electronics)....the Studer makes it sound broken due to it's amazing speed accuracy and stability.

i'm no expert; but it seems to me that getting the speed right, and i mean really, really right....... is the hard part and by far the most important part in music reproduction in the analog domain.

Raul, Stylus drag does affect platter speed. I am sure the the effect is small enough that it would be extremely difficult to measure. There is plenty of evidence that suggests that it is audible, but nothing that I would consider proof. A scientific measurement would be interesting but would tell us nothing about audibility. Only our ears can tell us that. The problem is that there is no practical way to remove the affects of stylus drag without changing other system parameters. So it is unlikely that we will see a definitive answer to the question anytime soon.

I see the issue of stylus drag as a well grounded theory because there is plenty of empirical evidence that supports it.