Dear friends: WoW!!!!, with all of you there I'm sure that we are all lucky enough at Agon because we shall have the best Audio Show " review " ever.
I'm sure that the people like me that can't attend this time are and will with very high expectation your in peace return to home to start posting all your wonderful findings out there.
Have fun and good luck to all of you!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Doug: +++++ " (stylus drag induced), " ++++
+++++ " accuracy and stability on held notes is a function of platter rotational speed. Nothing else in an audio system damages pitch like a platter that can’t maintain speed accuracy and stability. " +++++
I have to return to the subject because this is at least the thrid time that you post ( on other threads ) about stylus drag/speed stability issue and IMHO when someone is so repetitive on a subject could tell me that that is what he is experienced about in his audio system or that have facts that prove what is posting about or maybe the " whole problem " comes from other " source ", the analog sound reproduction is very very complex to understand every single parameter and its relationship between all them. I don't know either if in reality someone convince you about more that you heard it.
About the stylus drag that you states affect the platter speed stability I would like that you think for a moment on this:
a 20-30 kg platter that is spining at 33 rpm and where there is a " belt/motor " that it is trying to mantain that speed or a DD high torque motor doing the same.
then think in a stylus with a VTF of 1.5grs line contact shape and 12cu on cartridge compliance that is " running/tracking " through the LP and suddenly " find " a heavy transient where the stylus goes on because the stylus does not stop on the transient but follow a head.
then think that the stylus drag/friction on those tansient could be in any place on the recording: out the LP, in the middle, at inner groves or anywhere.
I point out this because if you try with your hand to stop a running ( onn ) Walker platter or a Tehnics Sp-10 you can see that it is more easy ( well not so easy at all ) trying to stop the platter if your hands are at the outer of the platter than at the inner side. The same for the stylus example.
try to think too on the complex process about because in my example the stylus shape is line contact: what about a eliptical one or other shape? what if instead of 1.5grs the VTF is 0.80grs? what about if the compliance is 30cu instead 12cu? what about if the tonearm type is dynamicaly balanced one instead static one? what about if the tonearm friction is 20grs or 10grs? what about...? what about... ?,, really complex fro say the least.
Now, do you think that that pitch/speed platter un-stabilities that you heard comes from the stylus drag ( between other things )? , could you thing that maybe comes from other " sources " that he stylus drag? can your common sense confirm about?
Unfortunately there is no ( or at least I can't find it ) measures about where tell us the whole true.
I don't want to disturb you I only want that something that for me is a " myth " ( like many others in this beautiful hooby ) till can/could be tested on a scientific/measure way does not be take it like an absolute true specially for the " newcomers/rockies " to this forum where the important people like you IMHO have a critical responsability to give the best " help " to those new people and cetainly to many of us that does not have the whole know-how.
I don't think, like you, that the ones that think ( like me ) that sometimes that wavering comes in the recording are totally wrong because not only for what I already posted somewhere and what I posted here but because exist errors in the recording process as there are errors that comes directly from the " players/musician ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Bill: Like always that you follow my posts and give some answer about: when I'm talking on " oranges " your non-sense answer is about " ocean/road " or what ever that does not have any relationship with the main subject.
This is what I posted:
+++++ " Regarding the stylus drag that Doug mentioned like one cause for the pitch anomaly is something controversial and TILL SOMEONE CAN/COULD PROVE/TEST/MEASURE IT IN SCIENTIFIC WAY IMHO is only a " mith " HERE I HAVE TO BELIEVE IN MEASURES MORE THAN " WORDS " , a measure than can tell me which kind/level of speed change ( if any ) can suffer a 20-30kg Walker platter ( example ) due to stylus drag ( VTF: 1.25grs. ) at 33 and 45rpm. " +++++
+++++ " try to think too on the complex process about because in my example the stylus shape is line contact: what about a eliptical one or other shape? what if instead of 1.5grs the VTF is 0.80grs? what about if the compliance is 30cu instead 12cu? what about if the tonearm type is dynamicaly balanced one instead static one? what about if the tonearm friction is 20grs or 10grs? what about...? what about... ?,, really complex fro say the least. " +++++
+++++ " Unfortunately there is no ( or at least I can't find it ) measures about where tell us the whole true. " +++++
I respect to AJ Conti as well any other people " amateur " or " pro " and with al respect to him and any one else if he does not have a scientific measure about I really don't care what he or you have to say in favor ot that " myth ", Bill facts/true measures not " words ", can/could you understand it?
The subject is extremely complex and maybe you can't understand it yet, so like almost always with you IMHO it is useless to continue argue with you.
Bill you are almost convince me that you are not the intelligent/wise person that I name it in the other thread!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Sorry: +++++ that due to stylus drag a TT platter change its speed and that speed change is audible, that's all " +++++
this is how it can read it.
Raul. |
Dear Mike: +++++ " but it seems to me that getting the speed right, and i mean really, really right....... is the hard part and by far the most important part in music reproduction in the analog domain. " +++++
Absolutely true: a must to have!! this " simple " fact makes a paramount difference on the enjoy level of music home system reproduction.
Right now I'm looking for a Studer A-80 that some one is offering me, this guy show me that machine running against a Tandberg one and like in your case no contest against the Studer where the speed stability is astonishing.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Chris: +++++ There is plenty of evidence that suggests that it is audible, but nothing that I would consider proof. A scientific measurement would be interesting but would tell us nothing about audibility. Only our ears can tell us that. " +++++
Agree, I know that the subject is very complex maybe more that I can understand.
Anyway what you and Mike argue about give us a better understanding on the stylus drag issue.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mike: Yes, you are right.
regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear RMAF friends: Nice to read how much " fun " all of you had on the show not only hearing several different ( first time ) audio item/systems but more important meet each to other Agoner's: a unique opportunity!, I hope to attend next time.
There is no doubt that the Saskia TT is something to hear in the future and regarding the accuracy-speed stability TT performance is a little unfair to judge in a show environment specially for the belt drive ones that are the TT design that can/could " suffer " more at the shows on that regard due to a " dirty " electrical supply where the direct drive and idler drive designs " laugh " about ( for what posted Ralph his 208 is a healthy one too. ).
Obviously that the people that are showing the belt drive TTs have to have more care about and more care on the TT set up regarding accuracy-speed stability.
Any one of us are very sensitive to changes on pitch due to TT speed minute changes specially with instrument alone recordings: piano, horns, female voice, etc, etc, IMHO we don't need a " special " recording to hear small changes on TT speed.
As a fact I heard it on my Acoustic Sigature TTs when the drive thread is near the end of its life use and on the Micro Seiki too but when the drive thread is on " target " I can't hear any anomaly that I can say comes from a TT speed changes even with two catridges running at the same time, sometimes I can heard/hear that pitch changes that I know for sure comes in the recording and not due to my belt drive TTs.
In my direct drive Technics/Denon ones I never had any trouble about other that comes in the recording it self.
I heard Walker/Raven/Kuzma/Sota/SME/Rockport/Amazon/Well Tempered/Avid/Simon Yorke/VPI/Verdier/Voyd/Basis/Galibier/Garrad/ in home audio system or in a very well audio dealer set up ( I forgot Teres at Doug's place ) and that " pitch " TT anomaly almost never appear, in all those TTs set up the owner really take care about.
I heard too set ups whith some of the TTs name it that present/appear that pitch anomaly, so the set up is critical.
Regarding the stylus drag that Doug mentioned like one cause for the pitch anomaly is something controversial and till some one can/could prove/test/measure it in a scientific way IMHO ( and with my respect to Doug ) is only a " myth " , here I have to believe in measures more than " words ", a measure that can tell me which kind/level of speed change ( if any ) can suffer a 20-30kg Walker platter ( example ) due to stylus drag ( VTF: 1.25grs. ) at 33 and 45rpm.
Well, anyway great thread with very good " reviews " on the show from each of you: congratulations!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Some additional thoughts/experiences on TT accuracy/speed stability.
I prefer the DD TT concept and Idler one but I like the BD too. This one IMHO is the more " delicate/critical " on set up to achieve its top performance.
Like many of you know or already posted here the speed accuracy and speed stability in the very short time are two of the main subjects and targets in any TT.
IMHO in any good executed TT design we can achieve those speed targets but in the BD TT type we have to take care more in deep on the set up, my experiences about told me ( in no importance order. ):
to mantain ( checking time to time ) in pristine/clean condition the motor(s) pulley along the " belt " ( any build/typematerial ) it self.
to mantain in pristine/clean condition the side/around platter where the " belt " spin ( try not to touch the side platter with our hands because we can/could leave different kind of " dust/residues " that migrate down the side platter and could interfere with the interaction between belt and platter )
to mantain and check ( time to time ) in/the perfect level both: the TT and the motor TT.
to be sure to stay right on the distance between the motor and turntable that the manufacturer recommend.
if there is a place where is important to have a electrical power supply conditioner/regulator IMHO our TT(s) must be connected through it.
check that the speed on the TT is precise: 33 1/3 rpm and 45rpm. Sometimes we buy a TT that right from the beguin has speed problems, so we have to be sure that at least it has speed accuracy ( other than speed stability ). I remember years ago that the Avid Acutus and one of the Rega TTs were reviewed and those units show inaccuracy on the speed it self ( not on speed stability ), this is more common that what we think about.
any " belt " of any kind and of different build material has its own " compliance/elasticity " value and like a cartridge compliance: it will perform right on target till settle down so we have to check about time to time, specially when we change it. How much time that " belt " mantain its top operation characteristics? I can't say it, we have to be " alert " about.
some " belts " change its characteristicis when the temperature change so we have to take care about.
Obviously as first step we have to follow all the manufacturer advise on the whole TT set-up subject.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Teres: I don't dismiss in anyway stylus drag, what I'm saying is that that stylus drag ( that certainly exist, no doubt about. ) from my point of view and in my examples: Walker/Technics TTs can't make a speed variation that you or any one also can say: ¡ hey that pitch change was due to the stylus drag !, that's all.
+++++ " to imagine that stylus drag would also be audible " +++++, of course is audible in many ways: tracking distortion, noises, etc, etc but the point is about changes in the platter speed stability due to the stylus drag.
What happen if some one give us a scientific measures ( why don'y you do that, you are a TT designer and I think must be interested about in a wide manner than me. ) about where we can prove/test that the stylus drag really affect in a way that everyone could hear it with out mistake, measures at different levels and in different conditions: like the ones I already posted.
My subject here is that " words " in this critical/precise subject are not enough to prove it. I don't know you or any one else but IMHO I need some tests/measures to be " true " of what is really happening down there.
For me is an important subject due that we already finish ( well almost ) our self tonearm design and we are on the cartridge and TT design. Right now we ( Guillermos and I ) don't have the time to go in deep for our self about but certainly we could send/give one of our TTs to Technologic University on México ( Science and Enginnering Division ) that was the one that already evaluate our tonearm bearing friction between other things.
IMHO and in this special subject what you think ( words ) or what I think ( words ) about means almost nothing about the real TRUE, I'm asking for this not a subjective approach. Of course that if you tell me: come here and hear the Teres top of the line TT and hear this speed un-stability ( pitch change ) that it is due to stylus drag, well this is a different approach and if not scientific could make a difference on what I'm talking about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mike : I'm not saying that the stylus drag is not audible certainly is what I'm saying is that I can't say ( only in a subjective way with out scientific measures ) that due to stylus drag a TT platter change its speed, that's all.
Now, like I told to Chris if you tell me that your Rockport platter sometimes and due to stylus drag ( not because other kind of source like LP imperfections: LP not flat. ) " suffer " changes in its speed well I want to hear it!!!!!! if that really happen is fine with me and for that very first moment that " myth " disappear from my mind, easy.
Mike, that " fact " is happening in your Rockport? and if it is happening : how do you know is for the stylus drag?. Btw, Chris same questions for you.
Thank you in advance for your answers.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear grooves: IMHO I don't think that that poit was missed, things are that we were argue on TT speed accuracy and speed stability and what could alter the platter speed stability.
This subject beguin with a comment that Doug posted about stylus drag and its influence on that platter speed stability and that's why we don't go in deep to any other source ( other that the TT it sef ) that affect about.
We all know that the analog source is probably the most imperfect " world " to music reproduction but at the same time I know too that the ones in this forum agree that the analog source is the most beautiful and enjoyable one for a home muic reproduction other than a live event or a Studer one with original master recordings.
As always things are that everything has its own trade-offs, take the TX-1000 that fix the eccentricity of the LP, well it is not a perfect machine from the point of view about its tonearm or about its DD motor or suspention: anyway is worth to hear it only because its eccentricity fix function.
Now, IMHO the digital source is almost perfect but like Teres point out it is not " perfect ", btw nothing is.
All that analog imperfection world makes that any one of us ( including a pro-reviewer like you ) that cares about music and about music reproduction have to take extremely care on the right set up and right choice of hardware ( synergy, the real one not for compensate errors in the audio chain. ) at each link in the whole audio chain.
Some of us are truly " perfeccionist " about ( that's why we discuss about the relationship between stylus drag and platter spped un-stabilities. ), my point of view is that pro-reviewers must be ( at least ) in the same way and for what I read through your reviews and other people reviews some are far from there.
My thoughts about pro-reviewers is that al these very special people have a great responsability: help for the analog high-end grow up faster and with real quality improvements in any step that the analog industry take it.
It is sad for me to say that certainly ( today ) that is not what is happening from my point of view ( I could name it many examples of that ). This is not the time or the thread to analyze in deep about, I hope that over the time all us have the opportunity to return on the subject because we need to improve, we need to be better, we need to " dream " again.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: I like Mike, Robdoorak, Albert and some others think that the stylus drag exist but does not means that a Rockport/SP-10/Walker/Verdier/Micro Seiki/Garrad/etc/etc change its speed stability due to a VTF of 1.5grs and if it did/ do there is no single proof that can tell you that what you are hearing is due to that change in speed on the platter TT due to the stylus drag.
I know that our ears are very sensible not only to minute speed platter changes but how ay one ( like Doug ) can affirm that can hear it and that it is for the stylus drag, how Doug can separate those minutes speed changes due to stylus drag from other sources about, Doug IMHO if you are hearing that maybe someting wrong with your Teres and if you are hearing in other TTs maybe a bad set up, you say that what Robdoorack posted say nothing and IMHO what you think you are hearing say nothing about till you can prove it in an objective way.
Again in this very complex subject IMHO we need a scientific measures ( first we have to " create " a methodology of the measurements to be precise how/where/wich we have to take the test. We have to be precise with which kind of record modulation, at inner of the platter? or at the middle of it?. It is really complex even to have the right measures methodology/estrategy. ) about with 3-4 different TT where the TT/tonearm ( whic one ( s )/cartridge ( which cartridge ( s )/platform be perfect or near perfect, till we have it and prove that we can hear it for sure ( speed changes due to stylus drag. ) I think that it is useless to discuss about.
Doug, I always think that you are a wise man: I wonder why you insist on this extremely complex subject where you can't prove it!, maybe I'm missing something because I can't understand your whole attitude about.
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
