I've been sitting on these notes since the RMAF in hopes of adding more as time goes on. Unfortunately, I haven't made time to write more thoughts. Therefore, I'll just post the first three rooms I started writing about.
Hope you enjoy....
RMAF 2008
The Saskia turntable in the Oswaldsmill Audio room.
I didn’t get to spend as much time as I would have liked in this room but I did get to hear two of the more difficult Classical LP I had brought along with me. One of them was by chance because I entered the room during the middle of a Liszt piano sonata performed by Nojima. This LP was in my bag of LPs I brought along. This is a very well recorded (and performed) piece of music. The table was my main focus so I tried to listen through the rest of the electronics and the speakers. The sound throughout the mid-band was very good as well as the top end of the spectrum. Win’s table is very sturdy, dynamic, and engaging. This aspect of the music was conveyed very well. Once the gentleman before me was finished with his LP, I asked to play one of my own. Having heard what I thought was a bit of slowness in the lower register of the piano on the Liszt Sonata, I asked Win to play a piece of music performed by bassist Gunter Klaus. This is a modern piece of music by Jean Francaix called Concerto pour contrebasse et orchestre (1974). I asked Win to start with the second movement since it would get to the meat of my curiosity. What I heard was very good tracking and solid playback through all three movements. This confirmed for me the quality of the turntable is excellent. I must say however that there was a slowness in the bass along with a bit of bloat in the low 30Hz range. The majority of the bloat is most likely an issue with room setup and show conditions. The speakers or the amps driving them did not capture the lower registers of the piano on the Nojima recording and this was confirmed to my ears on the Gunter Klaus performance. In the context of the show, this was a very satisfying listening session. The sound, save for the lowest register of bass that is lost or not fully captured by many systems costing much, much, more than these electronics/speakers, was one of two 4th floor oasis’ for me.
The Ridge Street Audio Sasons
Each time I entered this room, the music was being played at a modest level. Having the system sourced from a server discouraged me from asking to play some of my favorite music pieces that I had brought along on the silver disc. However, even though some of the music was more mainstream including one of the few rooms playing Patty Barber, the sound on the three or four visits was warm and non-fatiguing. These big little speakers did a very good job at the levels they were being played. I have a local audio pal that will be getting a pair of these soon and now I understand why he’s so excited to get them. These speakers were an oasis for the 4th floor…
Matrix Audio
This year the Matrix crew had the dCS Puccini SACD player, Lamm Electronics , and Tidal speakers combined to make great sound. It was unfortunate that this room didn’t have the ability to playback vinyl. I had to enjoy Clark Terry via and SACD. I know the SACD is not as dynamic as the original vinyl pressing but it was a very pleasant experience nonetheless. This room was my 5th floor oasis pick. |
Albert,
The Classic Audio and Oswald Rooms were special.
Your taste seems to be similar to mine. I know you are Koetsu fan, so I really hope you get your hands on a Koetsu Coral Stone, as you have been thinking about. It really is special, and leagues above your former Koetsu Jade and PC1, IMHO. Perhaps we do hear alike, or at least treasure the same strengths in audio reproduction. I'm very happy for you to have found a combination of pieces to excite you as much as it has. That, in the end is what all of us are looking for. As for Koetsu, I'm reasonably sure it will be Coralstone and Air Tight Supreme as my reference pair of cartridges. |
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Maril,
I listened to both T1 & T3.
T-1'S WITH FIELD COIL FRONT WOOFER, FIELD COIL MID RANGE, FIELD COIL SUPER TWEETER.
T-3'S WITH FIELD COIL WOOFER, MID AND SUPER TWEETER
The T-3's in their full Filed Coil Configuration have a lot of the Magic of the T'1. But the larger T1's with the newly designed Edgar horn is a smoother sound, and worth the price difference.
If you were at RMAF and heard the smaller T3's they did not have the Field Coil Woofer. Adding the the filed coil woofer to the T3 is a MUST. When we swapped out woofers between field coil and non field coil the difference was AMAZING.
Regarding pricing, these are modular designs determine your budget and build over time if necessary or buy the in the configuration heard at RMAF cost is $36,500.
|
David,
What model of Classis Audio Reproductions were you listening to? T1, or T3? And what is the difference?
Did you take your Shindo to them too?
Incidentally, I was looking at the same speakers to upgrade to, and I have Doshi MkI as well.
BTW, how much are T1 and T3? It's not clear from their website if the price is for a single speaker, or a pair. |
Albert,
The Classic Audio and Oswald Rooms were special.
Your taste seems to be similar to mine. I know you are Koestu fan, so I really hope you get your hands on a Koetsu Coral Stone, as you have been thinking about. It really is special, and leagues above your former Koetsu Jade and PC1, IMHO.
Actually, I recently brought my front end equipment: Garrard 301 in Dobbins Plinth/SME V/Koetsu Coralstone/Doshi Phono over to Classic Audio Repducitons for a listen, two speakers sytems went up for sale after the 8 hour listening session, mine and my friend's who came with me. My front end took the sound heard at Rocky Mountain to a much higher level if you can believe that!!!! I think even John Wolf of Classic Audio would agree it is a very special listening session. The speed of the Field Coils and the textural layering of the Koestu Coralstone it was magic.
I am planning a trip soon to Oswald Mills to do the same listening session, before I buy my "lifetime" speaker. The finish line is in sight ; 0 )
David
|
I always love RMAF, it's my favorite audio show. Lots of rooms this year sounded nice, overall better than typical CES showrooms.
The surprise came from Classic Audio's new field coil drivers. It was an amazing upgrade from last years RMAF, and I'm not really a horn speaker guy. I was also stunned by the Oswald Mills room, I fell in love with the rim drive Saskia table and slate plinth. Wish I could hear one in my own system.
Since I was doing photo coverage, I was literally running from room to room, just hoping to not leave anyone out. It would have been a lot more fun if I could have cruised around listening, like everyone else.
I had a great time at dinner with Mike Lavigne, Guido and David Stevens, we were supposed to go to a private showing at a manufacturers home after the show, but got lost driving around.
The Audiogon get together at the Mexican restaurant was a high point, meeting members face to face (we wore our Audiogon names on badges).
I always enjoy seeing manufacturers and designers that are friends, some that's I've known for 30 years or more.
Audiogon Arnie was there too, but was little more than a blur going by, he was capturing video which is more of a pain that stills. |
Albert and Mike,
Care to share your impressions of this year's RMAF?
Thanks,
Dre |
Dear Mike: Yes, you are right.
regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
of course; i could always sell the Rockport to fund my adventures (like the Walker did yours). One must choose.....
but I’m not complaining....... If you were able to replace the Rockport with a MK3, what a pile of cash you would have. You would be far better off than me, the Rockport is worth three times what a used Walker sells for. With that in mind, if the MK3 got within 5% I would be tempted to pocket the cash and go mad for software and whatever cartridges you want. Who knows, these new cartridges could be as big as turntable differences. I'm hearing such incredibly strong feedback on the Supreme, i can hardly wait to get mine running. Comments on the Koetsu Coral have been pouring out for what seems forever. I just wish the Coral was not so expensive. |
Albert,
that sounds exciting.....isn't it grand when something which seems to be soooo good.....becomes 'gooder' and 'for cheap'. i'm glad it's not some $2k power cord at least.
hopefully Dobbins will let me know what i need to do to cash in on your discovery.
it will be awhile before my budget recovers to where the Coral Stone and PC-1 Supreme are options.....but they were already in my gunsights. i'll have to settle for my vdH Colibri's for now. i'm sorta tt poor and RTR poor at the moment (according to the wife).
of course; i could always sell the Rockport to fund my adventures (like the Walker did yours). one must choose.....
but i'm not complaining....... |
Raul,
i think we are going a bit in circles here (and i'm part of that problem) as we are back to the whole 'proof of cause/effect of stylus drag' issue......when the issue is not likely one to be proved other than by listening.
i wrote a long response here and then realized it was almost an identical response to your earlier 'almost identical' post.
so i'll let things go for now.
cheers, |
No MK3 yet, but the platform for it to sit on is supposed to be delivered tomorrow. Hopefully the plinth is no more than another week after that.
Dobbins says the MK3 is better than the MK2, I don't know how much better but assume he's right, he's very conservative with opinions.
A crazy thing just happened, suggest you contact Louis or any member of my group for confirmation. I already told Dobbins and he is supposed to do a test.
I replaced all the fuses in the MK2 and MK3 power supplies (10 fuses total) with the Hi Fi tuning from Cable Company. Everyone in my group raved about the difference all last Tuesday evening. (Listening to MK2 only of course).
Power supply always seems to be a big deal, and this one has already had all the caps replaced with Black Gates and Nishicon's, the stock cord cut and replaced with high quality IEC male. The AC cord is now a Purist Audio Anniversary and the internal supply wire was replaced with Purist 12 gauge conductors.
Who would think 5 fuses would be so audible when all those other upgrades are already in place? Or maybe that's why they are so easy to hear, everything in the chain seems to be a big deal and the more you peel the onion the more is revealed.
I can hardly wait to hear how the MK3 performs, especially since it will be fitted with the Air Tight Supreme. I'm very seriously considering the Koetsu Coral for my MK2, to replace the Air Tight PC-1.
That way I would have the best of Koetsu and best of Air Tight. Could be very cool take on the music from two excellent sources. |
Dear friends: I like Mike, Robdoorak, Albert and some others think that the stylus drag exist but does not means that a Rockport/SP-10/Walker/Verdier/Micro Seiki/Garrad/etc/etc change its speed stability due to a VTF of 1.5grs and if it did/ do there is no single proof that can tell you that what you are hearing is due to that change in speed on the platter TT due to the stylus drag.
I know that our ears are very sensible not only to minute speed platter changes but how ay one ( like Doug ) can affirm that can hear it and that it is for the stylus drag, how Doug can separate those minutes speed changes due to stylus drag from other sources about, Doug IMHO if you are hearing that maybe someting wrong with your Teres and if you are hearing in other TTs maybe a bad set up, you say that what Robdoorack posted say nothing and IMHO what you think you are hearing say nothing about till you can prove it in an objective way.
Again in this very complex subject IMHO we need a scientific measures ( first we have to " create " a methodology of the measurements to be precise how/where/wich we have to take the test. We have to be precise with which kind of record modulation, at inner of the platter? or at the middle of it?. It is really complex even to have the right measures methodology/estrategy. ) about with 3-4 different TT where the TT/tonearm ( whic one ( s )/cartridge ( which cartridge ( s )/platform be perfect or near perfect, till we have it and prove that we can hear it for sure ( speed changes due to stylus drag. ) I think that it is useless to discuss about.
Doug, I always think that you are a wise man: I wonder why you insist on this extremely complex subject where you can't prove it!, maybe I'm missing something because I can't understand your whole attitude about.
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Albert,
thanks. and i'm excited to read about the technical merits of the Mk3 drive system. it's all your fault i've dived into these vintage dd tt's.
i'll be shipping my Technics SP-10 Mk3 to Dobbins on Monday so he can work his magic with it. then we'll see how it compares to the Rockport and the Mk2.
are you listening to your Mk3 yet? |
Great post Mike. Is there another turntable that might match the Rockport? I don't know but this is an interesting proposition.
Imagine for a moment a turntable with 1.1 tons per CM2 moment of inertia, driving a copper laminated platter that weighs 10KG and starts in 0.25 of a second.
Imagine this same turntable has the second lowest rumble (noise) ever measured in ANY turntable, figures of 98A via (DIN 45 507) and exhibited speed variation of zero (unmeasurable) up to applied forces of 10 KG per CM.
The force required to cause error is the equivalent of 1000 tonearms, all tracking at 2g each. Speed error remains +/- 0.001% and wow and flutter is 0.015% WRMS.
Pretty amazing for a turntable that's now 20 years (+) old. Unfortunately they sell used for $6000.00 and up to $10,000.00 in new condition.
It's the Technics SP10 MK3 |
yet there is no drive system that will remove our drag problem that i am aware of. hummmmmm. as far as stylus drag/groove modulation.....i think that the Rockport Sirius III's drive system may solve this issue. you have an pure induction direct drive motor with zero torque ripple, a 55 pound platter, an air bearing, and a servo system (coaxially mounted optical encoder) which samples the speed every .000001 of a second. the only support i have for my opinion besides the design description is the unique way that the Rockport handles musical peaks to my ears. until one hears it on a familiar Lp it's easy to dismiss the signficance of it. a side note on the servo; when it is engaged a green LED flashes to red. the servo is never engaged unless the 'floating 250 pound plinth' is bumped or if someone jumps up and down on the floor in front of the tt. once the platter reaches speed it stays there. there is no hunting occuring. stylus drag does not cause the servo to engage on the Sirius III that i have observed. maybe the servo engages without the LED flashing, but i don't think it works that way. i have a Technics SP-10 Mk2 sitting next to the Rockport which does a very good job on this issue.....but not at the Sirius III level of naturalness and continuousness. of course; there are more differences between the SP-10 and the Sirius besides stylus drag to cause these differences. there may be other tt's which are able to do this same (stylus drag/continuousness) thing equal or better but i've not heard that. anyway; stylus drag can be solved.....but it's not easy to do. |
Wow some interesting reading. The speed issue has been with us from the beginning of vinyl playback right. We all have accepted the fact cause were here. I am in constant adjustment between lps. Observation done with a KAB strobe on top of my center weight as I am able to check when playing a lp. I am tuned to hear pitch changes and thats the reason for the constant checking and tweaking. All of the reasons are known for this yet there is no drive system that will remove our drag problem that i am aware of.
In the end though the sound of vinyl play back is so far superior to digital that i can live with the drag in my hearing. IMO
No pun intended ha. |
Robdoorack, Thanks for the interesting data. The measurable deviation cited was more than I would have expected. As Doug points out the measurement time period is very significant. Most people are not able to detect relatively large errors in average speed. For the majority of us the threshold is more than 0.1% and nobody can detect a 0.0007% error. However short term deviations are a different matter. It is well documented that digital jitter of 10 picoseconds is audible. That's a short term deviation of 0.000000001%, one billionth of a percent! So it should not surprise us that a short term analog speed deviation 10,000 times greater would be audible. |
Robdoorack,
Interesting stuff, but not necessarily conclusive of anything. Read the posts by Teres and Thom Mackris just above (well, some of Thom's anyway!). Depending on the time span over which "speed" is measured, the effects of stylus drag may produce no measured difference at all, yet may still be audible.
Consider this analogy:
A. You decide to time me running laps around a track, but the seat you chose to observe from can only see the start/finish line. It has no view of what's in between.
B. You observe that I pass the start/finish line precisely once each minute, so you conclude (correctly, from your perspective) that I'm travelling at a steady 4 minutes/mile clip (assuming a 1/4 mile track).
C. What you don't know, because your chosen vantage point doesn't let you see it, is that half the circumference of the track is actually a foot deep pool of water. This slows me down to 8 minutes/mile speed, but I make it up by blazing through the dry half of the circuit at 2 minutes/mile speed.
D. Your limited resolution of measurement (you can only see and measure in whole laps) leads you to the false conclusion that I'm running at a steady pace. The reality is that my speed is varying all over the place. Only the long term average is steady.
E. A turntable with a motor/drive system that allows deceleration due to drag, but then re-accelerates to faster than average speed when the drag is removed, could easily maintain a perfect AVERAGE speed of 33 1/3 rpm, while producing audible or even horrible sonic speed changes that a once-per-revolution measurement would never detect. A longer period of measurement would be proportionately less likely to detect them.
So, the experiment quoted was vaguely interesting, but proves virtually nothing. The human ear is vastly more capable of detecting short term speed changes than the crude experiment you described.
Doug
P.S. If anyone ever observes me running 4 minute miles, please let me know!
|
Back in 2002 Audio Asylum correspondent Klaus discovered a letter in a 1967 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society where RCA reported some measurements they had made of speed variations caused by stylus drag. Using a metal master, the RCA engineers measured a 0.078% speed change when playing a silent groove and a 0.079% speed change with a modulated groove. The speed change was even lower on a vinyl record, 70% of that measured with the metal disc. Since the difference between playing a modulated and a silent groove on a metal master was 0.001% (0.079% - 0.078%), and a vinyl record reduced that difference to 70%, the real speed change caused by a modulated groove would be .7 x .001% or 0.0007%. That's 2/10000 of an RPM for a 33 1/3 RPM LP. I really doubt that anyone can hear the difference between 33.3333 RPM and 33.3331 RPM. In any case that speed change caused by stylus drag would seem to be buried beneath the wow and flutter of even the most stable turntables.
Of course those measurements are over 40 years old now and I suppose that today's much better stylii might have even lower drag and speed change. It would be nice to have contemporary measurements of the phenomenon but until someone repeats the RCA experiments stylus drag would seem to be inconsequential. |
There's a lot to catch up on in this thread, and I'll do my best to be brief and yet thorough ... well ... maybe not brief ...
Speed Errors.
There are various types which correlate to the magnitude and distribution of the error. Chris alluded to this in the stylus drag discussion. At the lowest level is IM distortion discussed in my post above, and loosely equivalent to digital jitter in the sense that we don't hear this as pitch change or wavering but rather as a combination of harshness, a paradoxically rolled off top end, and bleached out harmonics in the mid-bass. As we work our way to longer time domains, we begin to hear timing errors - like the band isn't completely on the beat. Increasing the time domain further, we begin to hear shifts in imaging and pitch until we reach a point where nausea sets in for some of us. It's important to make these distinctions when we talk about speed.
Selection of Music.
I agree in general that acoustic music is critical to understanding what's going on, but this focus on period instruments is more a point of familiarity and reference for our friends on this list than anything else. It provides one (and I emphasize one) means of triangulating on the truth.
For an alternate, equally valid reality, listen to Bill Monroe, Doc Watson, Mark Knopfler, Neil Young, acoustic Jorma Kaukonen, John Fahey, Cal Tjader, Charles Mingus, Kathleen Battle, Talking Heads, Scissor Sisters, etc. and they'll all tell you something equally important about what's going on with your rig.
One of my favorite torture tests is to play a capable soprano going full tilt. Dense music has its place as well, and in this category, you can learn as much from Heavy Metal (even though I don't like it) as you can from full scale romantic pieces.
Rock 'n roll and other electronic music presents a challenge to understanding what's going on, but well recorded rock can also tell you things that you can't hear with acoustic music. You have to be watchful however. Listen to Neil Young playing his beat up Fender Tweed Deluxe, and if you know the sound of those amps and their harmonic overtones, it's unmistakable when a system gets this right.
Period music (Academy of Ancient Music) will tell you about subtlety, nuance and such. Other genres will tell you something different. When we had our Saturday night after hours session at the Audiofest, Palasr brought an AC controller which we listened to (designed by the same fellow who's working with Win on the Saskia controller as well as with us). Well, we're still hunting down a 3-phase motor, and the 2-phase we were driving was relatively crude sounding compared with our legacy controller.
If you listened only to pop and rock, this crudeness would have been lost on you, as bass lines had nice punch to them. A shift to acoustic music told the rest of the story however. Drej and Palasr will agree, I'm sure. One of the main dangers of trying to reach a conclusion when listening to electric music is that the distortions in the recording process can be masked by electronic distortions in your system.
In my humble opinion, a system needs to do it all, and if you limit yourself while you're evaluating, you may well be limiting your ultimate outcome. So, if you listen only to period instruments, should you also invite Jazzdoc over with his Scissors Sisters records. The reverse would be true as well - don't listen only to electric.
Ultimately, you're making choices, but listening to all different sorts of music at a minimum will expose you to different worlds, and the fellow who tells me that Woody Guthrie doesn't have a story to tell me and that all of the valid music was composed by white guys who died a hundred years ago is equally self-limiting as is the reverse. Ultimately, even if you listen to music written by dead white guys, you can still learn a lot that's relevant to you by listening to modern music occasionally.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Jj2468, I should have mentioned this before. There are various types of speed anomalies that that are not manifested as pitch fluctuations. Very short term speed variations show up as smearing, lack of detail and often harshness. Longer term, shallow variations tend to make the sound sluggish and dull. Only a small subset of problems in a drive system sound like pitch variations.
It's interesting that the benefits from jitter reduction with digital playback sounds much like what I hear with improved analog drive technology.
Chris |
I would imagine that pitch fluctuations caused by stylus drag are less than pitch fluctations caused by 1)variations in motor speed itself, 2) Groove's eccentricities, and 3) record warps causing speed fluctuations as the stylus must effectively move faster over bumps to complete one revolution at 33-1/3.
The last is quite audible if you have an even slightly warped test record that includes a steady pitch (assuming, of course, that the steady pitch was steadfastly done).
Intuition only, does anybody care to do some measurements?
Jeff |
I can point to one thing that no-one seems to be talking about here. If you have a servo system controlling the motor speed, then you will experience a phenomena known as 'hunting'. This is where the servo detects that the speed is off and compensates for it. Actually, in order to do that, it has to overcompensate. So now the speed is off in the other direction, so the process repeats.
If you look at the resulting speed stability, it looks a bit like a sine wave.
Now there are ways to reduce this effect, for example by cutting the motor/platter system out of the loop, so the 'speed stability' insofar as the servo is concerned is limited to the frequency stability of the servo's inner clocks. Some servos ignore the platter and simply focus on the motor shaft rpm. Whatever the approach (and I am grossly oversimplifying this whole thing), one thing that can be counted on is that if you have a servo, its likely that it is off speed while you are listening.
Technics did an admirable job with the SP10 in that it was the first and IME the *only* DD wherein the servo issues had been developed well enough that the table actually brought home the bacon. Most of the servos I see for BD tables are inadequate, but I've not seen everything out there by any means.
Synchronous motors and eddy current motors are locked to the line frequency which is regulated by the power utility company. Power utility speed stability is very exact; their hunting cycle takes a few hours under normal circumstances. That allows for the possibility for such motors to be the most speed stable. This is why, I think, that rim drive has resurfaced after decades of being the black sheep (due to noise and lack of precision). This is also, I think, why a BD table with such motors can also exhibit the same stability.
This is a far more pronounced issue than stylus drag, however I should point out that a weak servo or weaker motor will indeed have stylus drag issues- in servicing hundreds of tables over the years, I have seen the effect be quite measurable, although not on any table with a robust drive.
One thing you will see that the SP10 has in common with other 'speed stable'/'stylus drag resistant' machines is that it also has a robust drive.
So, IMO, a machine that will truly speed stable will have a heavy platter, a robust motor and either a **very well** thought out and executed servo, or none at all. What will not be a variable is the actual drive itself- belt, DD or rim, they are all going to work if properly executed. |
Dear grooves: IMHO I don't think that that poit was missed, things are that we were argue on TT speed accuracy and speed stability and what could alter the platter speed stability.
This subject beguin with a comment that Doug posted about stylus drag and its influence on that platter speed stability and that's why we don't go in deep to any other source ( other that the TT it sef ) that affect about.
We all know that the analog source is probably the most imperfect " world " to music reproduction but at the same time I know too that the ones in this forum agree that the analog source is the most beautiful and enjoyable one for a home muic reproduction other than a live event or a Studer one with original master recordings.
As always things are that everything has its own trade-offs, take the TX-1000 that fix the eccentricity of the LP, well it is not a perfect machine from the point of view about its tonearm or about its DD motor or suspention: anyway is worth to hear it only because its eccentricity fix function.
Now, IMHO the digital source is almost perfect but like Teres point out it is not " perfect ", btw nothing is.
All that analog imperfection world makes that any one of us ( including a pro-reviewer like you ) that cares about music and about music reproduction have to take extremely care on the right set up and right choice of hardware ( synergy, the real one not for compensate errors in the audio chain. ) at each link in the whole audio chain.
Some of us are truly " perfeccionist " about ( that's why we discuss about the relationship between stylus drag and platter spped un-stabilities. ), my point of view is that pro-reviewers must be ( at least ) in the same way and for what I read through your reviews and other people reviews some are far from there.
My thoughts about pro-reviewers is that al these very special people have a great responsability: help for the analog high-end grow up faster and with real quality improvements in any step that the analog industry take it.
It is sad for me to say that certainly ( today ) that is not what is happening from my point of view ( I could name it many examples of that ). This is not the time or the thread to analyze in deep about, I hope that over the time all us have the opportunity to return on the subject because we need to improve, we need to be better, we need to " dream " again.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
CD = Perfection... except for jitter. Timing errors seem to be an achillies heel for both analog an digital. |
I'm not sure anyone has said speed perfection is the sole goal. Obviously, taking that approach would lead to problems elsewhere, most of which would mask any benefit of perfect speed.
CD = perfection? That's a whole different topic itself, but I get your intent.
We have this tiny diamond, at times wiggly back and forth and up and down at some pretty high frequencies. Assuming that the cartridge is good enough to not skip even in the slightest, that has to have some effect on something, IMO. Those of us who use the mylar belts have heard remarkable improvements with different versions of the mylar streamers and, most notably, with Paul's latest trick of etching away the metal to expose the textured side of the mylar. Something is going on. |
Grooves, You make an excellent and valid point. So, what do you personally think accounts for the qualitative difference in sound between the best direct-drives and idler-drive tables on the one hand and belt-drive tables on the other? We all or most of us seem to agree that such a difference exists, except maybe as regards the very best belt-drive tables (not necessarily the most expensive). Couldn't it be that we are hearing an additive effect of speed instability due to the turntable on top of speed instability due to eccentrically cut records (i.e., nearly all of them)? What might be happening is that the brain learns to accept the sound from a given LP, good or bad, as a baseline for comparison of turntable performance. Most of us use LPs with which we are very familiar in the turntable comparison process. |
Every post here misses the most important and overlooked point in this discussion of speed accuracy. While it's a laudable and important goal, fetishing on speed perfection as the sole goal of turntable design misses that the eccentricity of virtually every record you own will produce greater effective speed error than any speed deviation found in a properly executed design, regardless of whether it's belt, direct drive, idler wheel or whatever. Records and record playback is a terribly imperfect technology. That it still sounds the best despite the imperfections is miraculous. If you want perfection get a CD player.
---Michael Fremer |
Dear Chris: +++++ There is plenty of evidence that suggests that it is audible, but nothing that I would consider proof. A scientific measurement would be interesting but would tell us nothing about audibility. Only our ears can tell us that. " +++++
Agree, I know that the subject is very complex maybe more that I can understand.
Anyway what you and Mike argue about give us a better understanding on the stylus drag issue.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mike: +++++ " but it seems to me that getting the speed right, and i mean really, really right....... is the hard part and by far the most important part in music reproduction in the analog domain. " +++++
Absolutely true: a must to have!! this " simple " fact makes a paramount difference on the enjoy level of music home system reproduction.
Right now I'm looking for a Studer A-80 that some one is offering me, this guy show me that machine running against a Tandberg one and like in your case no contest against the Studer where the speed stability is astonishing.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul, Stylus drag does affect platter speed. I am sure the the effect is small enough that it would be extremely difficult to measure. There is plenty of evidence that suggests that it is audible, but nothing that I would consider proof. A scientific measurement would be interesting but would tell us nothing about audibility. Only our ears can tell us that. The problem is that there is no practical way to remove the affects of stylus drag without changing other system parameters. So it is unlikely that we will see a definitive answer to the question anytime soon.
I see the issue of stylus drag as a well grounded theory because there is plenty of empirical evidence that supports it. |
Dear Mike : I'm not saying that the stylus drag is not audible certainly is what I'm saying is that I can't say ( only in a subjective way with out scientific measures ) that due to stylus drag a TT platter change its speed, that's all. Dear Raul; i would assume that top level belt driven tt's have similar performing arms, plinths and even suspensions to the Rockport. some have vacuum hold down and even an air bearing. but none have the Rockport motor, controller or servo. therefore i do relate much of the fundamental difference in the performance to the speed issue. i used to have the Rockport Sirius II which was belt driven....as good as it was in many areas......the dd Sirius III is quite a bit better. better in ways i've not heard other tt's match. my Technics SP-10 Mk2 and Garrard 301 do have elements of the dd magic of the Rockport. does stylus drag result in speed changes? something is happening which gives dd a big advantage. what other factor could do that? Now, like I told to Chris if you tell me that your Rockport platter sometimes and due to stylus drag ( not because other kind of source like LP imperfections: LP not flat. ) " suffer " changes in its speed well I want to hear it!!!!!! if that really happen is fine with me and for that very first moment that " myth " disappear from my mind, easy.
Mike, that " fact " is happening in your Rockport? and if it is happening : how do you know is for the stylus drag?. Btw, Chris same questions for you. it is hard to isolate individual design issues unless you are like Chris and are making design choices and isolating drive approaches. in the last year i have invested in reel to reel tape decks. i have an EAR modified Technics RS-1700 which sounds very very good. it's the same one that Philip O'Hanlon was playing 'The Tape Project' tapes on at RMAF. i recently recieved my Studer A-820 RTR machine after considerable time and expense in reconditioning. again; as good as the EAR Technics is (and the fact is it probably has better output electronics)....the Studer makes it sound broken due to it's amazing speed accuracy and stability. i'm no expert; but it seems to me that getting the speed right, and i mean really, really right....... is the hard part and by far the most important part in music reproduction in the analog domain. |
Sorry: +++++ that due to stylus drag a TT platter change its speed and that speed change is audible, that's all " +++++
this is how it can read it.
Raul. |
Dear Mike : I'm not saying that the stylus drag is not audible certainly is what I'm saying is that I can't say ( only in a subjective way with out scientific measures ) that due to stylus drag a TT platter change its speed, that's all.
Now, like I told to Chris if you tell me that your Rockport platter sometimes and due to stylus drag ( not because other kind of source like LP imperfections: LP not flat. ) " suffer " changes in its speed well I want to hear it!!!!!! if that really happen is fine with me and for that very first moment that " myth " disappear from my mind, easy.
Mike, that " fact " is happening in your Rockport? and if it is happening : how do you know is for the stylus drag?. Btw, Chris same questions for you.
Thank you in advance for your answers.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
i certainly agree with Teres that stylus drag is real and audible, it varies based on the complete tt system, it's noise floor and how flat the Lp is.
i listen to an Lp on the top belt driven tt's and then on the Rockport and there is a difference in musical foundation, flow, continuousness, and ease on peaks. there is no escapeing from the benefit of (near) perfect speed and stability. it is only in the comparing that you hear this.
this is not to say that overall a belt-driven tt might not be preferred to a direct drive; but all other things being equal (which they almost never are) a properly executed direct drive has the advantage. 'properly executed' is the tough part.
i'm not qualified to argue theory but i know what i hear.
Teres would be in a great position to talk about this issue as he builds tt's both ways that are otherwise the same. |
Dear Teres: I don't dismiss in anyway stylus drag, what I'm saying is that that stylus drag ( that certainly exist, no doubt about. ) from my point of view and in my examples: Walker/Technics TTs can't make a speed variation that you or any one also can say: ¡ hey that pitch change was due to the stylus drag !, that's all.
+++++ " to imagine that stylus drag would also be audible " +++++, of course is audible in many ways: tracking distortion, noises, etc, etc but the point is about changes in the platter speed stability due to the stylus drag.
What happen if some one give us a scientific measures ( why don'y you do that, you are a TT designer and I think must be interested about in a wide manner than me. ) about where we can prove/test that the stylus drag really affect in a way that everyone could hear it with out mistake, measures at different levels and in different conditions: like the ones I already posted.
My subject here is that " words " in this critical/precise subject are not enough to prove it. I don't know you or any one else but IMHO I need some tests/measures to be " true " of what is really happening down there.
For me is an important subject due that we already finish ( well almost ) our self tonearm design and we are on the cartridge and TT design. Right now we ( Guillermos and I ) don't have the time to go in deep for our self about but certainly we could send/give one of our TTs to Technologic University on México ( Science and Enginnering Division ) that was the one that already evaluate our tonearm bearing friction between other things.
IMHO and in this special subject what you think ( words ) or what I think ( words ) about means almost nothing about the real TRUE, I'm asking for this not a subjective approach. Of course that if you tell me: come here and hear the Teres top of the line TT and hear this speed un-stability ( pitch change ) that it is due to stylus drag, well this is a different approach and if not scientific could make a difference on what I'm talking about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
There is no question that stylus drag does cause speed variations. The only question is if the variations are large enough to be audible. Our ears are remarkably sensitive to extraordinarily small errors in the time domain. With digital audio it has been well documented that tens of pico-seconds of jitter is easily heard. That seems vastly too small to be heard, but yet it is. With analog it is no different. Very subtle changes anywhere in the drive system are easily heard. Different belts, pulleys and even component quality in the electronics all make a notable difference in the sound. If capacitor quality can be heard in a motor regulator circuit (and it can) then it's not much of a stretch to imagine that stylus drag would also be audible.
Regardless of the theory, what is indisputable is the fact that many techniques targeted to reduce the effects of stylus drag produce audible, positive results. Stylus drag may or may not be the culprit for audible degradations that we all hear but to me it seems like the most logical explanation. It is imprudent to categorically dismiss stylus drag without evidence.
Platter mass cannot reduce the effects of stylus drag. A massive platter makes speed variation shallower but also spreads it out over a longer period of time. So the speed variation is really of the same magnitude but has a different distribution. |
Dear Bill: Like always that you follow my posts and give some answer about: when I'm talking on " oranges " your non-sense answer is about " ocean/road " or what ever that does not have any relationship with the main subject.
This is what I posted:
+++++ " Regarding the stylus drag that Doug mentioned like one cause for the pitch anomaly is something controversial and TILL SOMEONE CAN/COULD PROVE/TEST/MEASURE IT IN SCIENTIFIC WAY IMHO is only a " mith " HERE I HAVE TO BELIEVE IN MEASURES MORE THAN " WORDS " , a measure than can tell me which kind/level of speed change ( if any ) can suffer a 20-30kg Walker platter ( example ) due to stylus drag ( VTF: 1.25grs. ) at 33 and 45rpm. " +++++
+++++ " try to think too on the complex process about because in my example the stylus shape is line contact: what about a eliptical one or other shape? what if instead of 1.5grs the VTF is 0.80grs? what about if the compliance is 30cu instead 12cu? what about if the tonearm type is dynamicaly balanced one instead static one? what about if the tonearm friction is 20grs or 10grs? what about...? what about... ?,, really complex fro say the least. " +++++
+++++ " Unfortunately there is no ( or at least I can't find it ) measures about where tell us the whole true. " +++++
I respect to AJ Conti as well any other people " amateur " or " pro " and with al respect to him and any one else if he does not have a scientific measure about I really don't care what he or you have to say in favor ot that " myth ", Bill facts/true measures not " words ", can/could you understand it?
The subject is extremely complex and maybe you can't understand it yet, so like almost always with you IMHO it is useless to continue argue with you.
Bill you are almost convince me that you are not the intelligent/wise person that I name it in the other thread!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I spoke with AJ Conti at length today regarding the stylus drag issue and it is basically BS.
I encourage any interested reader to contact AJ directly for the straight scoop from a person strongly educated in physics and mechanics not an amateur audiophile. |
Dear Doug: +++++ " (stylus drag induced), " ++++
+++++ " accuracy and stability on held notes is a function of platter rotational speed. Nothing else in an audio system damages pitch like a platter that can’t maintain speed accuracy and stability. " +++++
I have to return to the subject because this is at least the thrid time that you post ( on other threads ) about stylus drag/speed stability issue and IMHO when someone is so repetitive on a subject could tell me that that is what he is experienced about in his audio system or that have facts that prove what is posting about or maybe the " whole problem " comes from other " source ", the analog sound reproduction is very very complex to understand every single parameter and its relationship between all them. I don't know either if in reality someone convince you about more that you heard it.
About the stylus drag that you states affect the platter speed stability I would like that you think for a moment on this:
a 20-30 kg platter that is spining at 33 rpm and where there is a " belt/motor " that it is trying to mantain that speed or a DD high torque motor doing the same.
then think in a stylus with a VTF of 1.5grs line contact shape and 12cu on cartridge compliance that is " running/tracking " through the LP and suddenly " find " a heavy transient where the stylus goes on because the stylus does not stop on the transient but follow a head.
then think that the stylus drag/friction on those tansient could be in any place on the recording: out the LP, in the middle, at inner groves or anywhere.
I point out this because if you try with your hand to stop a running ( onn ) Walker platter or a Tehnics Sp-10 you can see that it is more easy ( well not so easy at all ) trying to stop the platter if your hands are at the outer of the platter than at the inner side. The same for the stylus example.
try to think too on the complex process about because in my example the stylus shape is line contact: what about a eliptical one or other shape? what if instead of 1.5grs the VTF is 0.80grs? what about if the compliance is 30cu instead 12cu? what about if the tonearm type is dynamicaly balanced one instead static one? what about if the tonearm friction is 20grs or 10grs? what about...? what about... ?,, really complex fro say the least.
Now, do you think that that pitch/speed platter un-stabilities that you heard comes from the stylus drag ( between other things )? , could you thing that maybe comes from other " sources " that he stylus drag? can your common sense confirm about?
Unfortunately there is no ( or at least I can't find it ) measures about where tell us the whole true.
I don't want to disturb you I only want that something that for me is a " myth " ( like many others in this beautiful hooby ) till can/could be tested on a scientific/measure way does not be take it like an absolute true specially for the " newcomers/rockies " to this forum where the important people like you IMHO have a critical responsability to give the best " help " to those new people and cetainly to many of us that does not have the whole know-how.
I don't think, like you, that the ones that think ( like me ) that sometimes that wavering comes in the recording are totally wrong because not only for what I already posted somewhere and what I posted here but because exist errors in the recording process as there are errors that comes directly from the " players/musician ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Some additional thoughts/experiences on TT accuracy/speed stability.
I prefer the DD TT concept and Idler one but I like the BD too. This one IMHO is the more " delicate/critical " on set up to achieve its top performance.
Like many of you know or already posted here the speed accuracy and speed stability in the very short time are two of the main subjects and targets in any TT.
IMHO in any good executed TT design we can achieve those speed targets but in the BD TT type we have to take care more in deep on the set up, my experiences about told me ( in no importance order. ):
to mantain ( checking time to time ) in pristine/clean condition the motor(s) pulley along the " belt " ( any build/typematerial ) it self.
to mantain in pristine/clean condition the side/around platter where the " belt " spin ( try not to touch the side platter with our hands because we can/could leave different kind of " dust/residues " that migrate down the side platter and could interfere with the interaction between belt and platter )
to mantain and check ( time to time ) in/the perfect level both: the TT and the motor TT.
to be sure to stay right on the distance between the motor and turntable that the manufacturer recommend.
if there is a place where is important to have a electrical power supply conditioner/regulator IMHO our TT(s) must be connected through it.
check that the speed on the TT is precise: 33 1/3 rpm and 45rpm. Sometimes we buy a TT that right from the beguin has speed problems, so we have to be sure that at least it has speed accuracy ( other than speed stability ). I remember years ago that the Avid Acutus and one of the Rega TTs were reviewed and those units show inaccuracy on the speed it self ( not on speed stability ), this is more common that what we think about.
any " belt " of any kind and of different build material has its own " compliance/elasticity " value and like a cartridge compliance: it will perform right on target till settle down so we have to check about time to time, specially when we change it. How much time that " belt " mantain its top operation characteristics? I can't say it, we have to be " alert " about.
some " belts " change its characteristicis when the temperature change so we have to take care about.
Obviously as first step we have to follow all the manufacturer advise on the whole TT set-up subject.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Great show reports and thanks from across the Atlantic !!! |
Dear RMAF friends: Nice to read how much " fun " all of you had on the show not only hearing several different ( first time ) audio item/systems but more important meet each to other Agoner's: a unique opportunity!, I hope to attend next time.
There is no doubt that the Saskia TT is something to hear in the future and regarding the accuracy-speed stability TT performance is a little unfair to judge in a show environment specially for the belt drive ones that are the TT design that can/could " suffer " more at the shows on that regard due to a " dirty " electrical supply where the direct drive and idler drive designs " laugh " about ( for what posted Ralph his 208 is a healthy one too. ).
Obviously that the people that are showing the belt drive TTs have to have more care about and more care on the TT set up regarding accuracy-speed stability.
Any one of us are very sensitive to changes on pitch due to TT speed minute changes specially with instrument alone recordings: piano, horns, female voice, etc, etc, IMHO we don't need a " special " recording to hear small changes on TT speed.
As a fact I heard it on my Acoustic Sigature TTs when the drive thread is near the end of its life use and on the Micro Seiki too but when the drive thread is on " target " I can't hear any anomaly that I can say comes from a TT speed changes even with two catridges running at the same time, sometimes I can heard/hear that pitch changes that I know for sure comes in the recording and not due to my belt drive TTs.
In my direct drive Technics/Denon ones I never had any trouble about other that comes in the recording it self.
I heard Walker/Raven/Kuzma/Sota/SME/Rockport/Amazon/Well Tempered/Avid/Simon Yorke/VPI/Verdier/Voyd/Basis/Galibier/Garrad/ in home audio system or in a very well audio dealer set up ( I forgot Teres at Doug's place ) and that " pitch " TT anomaly almost never appear, in all those TTs set up the owner really take care about.
I heard too set ups whith some of the TTs name it that present/appear that pitch anomaly, so the set up is critical.
Regarding the stylus drag that Doug mentioned like one cause for the pitch anomaly is something controversial and till some one can/could prove/test/measure it in a scientific way IMHO ( and with my respect to Doug ) is only a " myth " , here I have to believe in measures more than " words ", a measure that can tell me which kind/level of speed change ( if any ) can suffer a 20-30kg Walker platter ( example ) due to stylus drag ( VTF: 1.25grs. ) at 33 and 45rpm.
Well, anyway great thread with very good " reviews " on the show from each of you: congratulations!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Sonofjim,
" ...Maybe it will lead to similar products at prices more within reach of the majority. Let's hope so."
I hope so, too. Saskia is a different beast, though. Still, maybe someday it will lead to alternatives that are within reach of more people.
Atmasphere,
"At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts."
I'm sure Mark will be along, but my understanding of that particular motor is that it is a hysteresis eddy current motor that uses a capacitor, so that it can be run on single phase mains. Otherwise, it is a three phase motor. I believe Mark has made controllers for it which are successfully used by some Japanese customers. Anyway, the current draw is near thirty watts, but the output is substantially diminished because an eddy current motor is particularly wasteful with energy. It purposefully wastes the bulk of the energy by leaking between phases. This may appear to be a bad thing, but the motor is actually smoother running as a result...cogging is far less apparent. So, I take it that Mark was speaking of "applied" power, not consumption. My motor is even more wasteful, but it has twice the torque. The benefit of both motors would be more appropriately considered to be their moment of inertia, which is, as your example notes, rather impressive. To sum it all up, synchronous used in turntables are typically less wasteful than hysteresis eddy current ones, so one that is in a smaller package can actually be more powerful when measured by ordinary means.
Macrojack,
"I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?"
Yes, and no. It is true that it is traditional in many ways, but I tried to break some eggs, too. There are some new twists.
"I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine?"
Would Saskia be a substantial difference to you? That would be for you to decide, of course. One person who does own the SP-10 MKII has listened to Saskia extensively, however.
Here...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1220542524
All that said, I believe the most important thing is that you enjoy the music for its passion. When I had nothing more than an old Dual 1019, which is many times inferior to the SP-10, I still listened to records, and I enjoyed them. It is nice being able to actually hear the decay of a piano note, however. :)
Best,
Win |
I think you have to view something like the Saskia as an artistic statement, unlike similarly priced Wilson speakers which are mass production merchandise, and therefore more appropriate to your BMW analogy.
On the other hand, in what way is an idler drive turntable cutting edge technology?
I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?
I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine? |
Quiddity, your 2-watt figure regarding the Empire motor is incorrect- by a factor of 10. At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts.
If you turn the motor on for just an instant and then try to stop it by grabbing the motor shaft with your fingers, you stand a good chance of the motor spindle cutting through your skin. You can turn the turntable on while holding the platter so it won't move, then turn the unit off, and then release the platter- the flywheel action of the motor will set the platter spinning.
Obviously it needs no help getting the platter up to speed or keeping it on speed, regardless of the music or tracking weight imposed. The speed stability of Empire turntables has long been one of the best in the business. That is one of the things that made them such a good candidate for update. |
True. Unfortunate is a better word and it is a beautiful table. Maybe it will lead to similar products at prices more within reach of the majority. Let's hope so. |
Sonofjim,
You understand the economics behind making a cutting edge, top class product for a very limited market, so calling the price "ridiculous" wasn't quite fair. How about, "unfortunate"?
An entry level BMW wasn't a relevant comparison of course. That product contains little cutting edge technology and it enjoys substantial, worldwide sales volumes over which tooling costs are defrayed; rather like a VPI table but on a vaster scale since, unlike turntables, nearly every household owns a car. For a meaningful car analogy, consider the Bugatti Veyron or a Formula One race car. Like the Saskia, these products involve original technological development costs apportioned across tiny production runs. Also like the Saskia, the average person will never own one. C'est la vie...
|
