20 Year Old Amplifiers compared to 2017

Whenever one of my class A mono blocks needs service, I pull out a 20-year old Hafler P3000 studio amp from the garage and replace it for a while. Always have the same two reactions:
1. Surprised at how good the Hafler sounds
2. still, can't wait to get the mono block back
Have recently tried a Nord class D amp and did not find it in the same league as class A amplifiers.

Have recently tried a Nord class D amp and did not find it in the same league as class A amplifiers.

+1 on that, listened to many "good" ones now that owners say are good, but they still don't cut the mustard.

Cheers George 

@aardbear, CJ makes great stuff, always has.  Not sure why more on this site don't use it.  ARC gets way more love, CJ used to be more competitive but has not kept up with the volume of innovation.

You have very nice gear!

As ears age, time seems to reclaim many things along the way, including the ability to keep up with the advances as quickly as they come on the market. Some say planned obsolescence, but whatever, the progression, sometimes it is just easier to be content with what you have, be thankful that it still works, and that you have a mind and heart to still enjoy the pleasure of music. Today, there is so much hype, and even in the are of what passes for talent to me just sounds like so much noise -- much of which would sound better, perhaps, if more distortion were added to the noise in order to cancel it out!

All that is progression . . . is not necessarily an improvement nor a step-up to a higher level of euphoria. As in the case of lies and deception -- the human factor can be found in every man-made effort for perfection. Man will never obtain that level on his own despite his arrogance, conceit, or self-absorption. Obviously, no one's answer is ever going to satisfy the masses 100%, because of the very nature of man . . . but this one thing is true -- man won't stop contending, arguing, or voicing opinions so long as they have breath. Even in the audiophile forums no matter how numerous, absolute agreement will never become the norm, but that is part of the fun and the endeavor of the hobby, isn't it?

including the ability to keep up with the advances as quickly as they come on the market.

This holds true for solid state, but for tubes especially push/pull triode, pentode, tetrodoe, and ultra linear. These are and still are based on the Williamson design from the old old days, with minor differences in design. 

Cheers George

I use to have a VTL 300 Deluxe Mono Blocks from the early 90's, pretty basic amps.  I replaced them with VTL 450MKII Mono Blocks.  The sonic improvement was minor, just a bit more power but the Fault Protection and Auto Biasing is a huge improvement.  

With the added technology, I get much longer tube life which lower operating cost. These amps have 16 KT88's and at 60 bucks a pop it can get pricy.  

Have recently tried a Nord class D amp and did not find it in the same league as class A amplifiers.
+1 on that, listened to many "good" ones now that owners say are good, but they still don't cut the mustard.

Cheers George

Bruno Putzey said in an interview earlier this year that if Class D sounds good, it sounds good despite the fact that it is Class D, not because it is Class D. Bruno basically said that efficiency is the only reason to molest a signal so dramatically. 

Great example is FM Acoustics from early 80-s. Why are these so highly demanded despite the age and mighty price tag? There`s got to be a reason :))

Someone may have mentioned this; I didn't read all 59 responses. But amps AGE. As Nelson Pass hilariously put it:

"In fifteen years, the electrolytic power-supply capacitors will get old. Depending on usage, you will begin to have semiconductor and other failures between 10 and 50 years after date of manufacture. Later, the sun will cool to a white dwarf, and after that, the universe will experience heat death."

--Nelson Pass, from the Aleph 0 User's Manual, explaining the life expectancy of the product

So you can't really compare a 20-year-old amp to an amp of today because you can't compare them when they're the same age.

Personally I really disagree with the "all amps sounds the same" school. When I was an audio salesman buying an amp on employee discount I made a project of comparing a dozen different amps in depth, putting in at least several hours listening to each after the store closed, and some of them more than a dozen hours. I standardized on a pair of Martin-Logans the store owned to try them all on. I ended up picking a Counterpoint Solid 2, which then never sounded quite as good on any of the speakers I actually owned. I later learned that Michael Elliott had used the very same Martin-Logan speaker to voice the Solid 2! I had settled on the best amp, all right, but it was just the best amp for that particular pair of speakers.

The very idea that you can take different products with different topologies and different circuits and different parts and have them "all sound the same" is highly illogical and ludicrous on its face and I don't understand at all why the idea has such a strong pull on the minds of certain people. It's like saying that all cars with the same 0-60 times drive identically or that all women of the same age (sorry I'm being sexist, change the gender if you want) are the same in bed.

If you ask anyone who really knows electronics--Nelson Pass would be a good example--if all good amps sound the same, I very much doubt any of them would say yes.

Oh, and while I'm making the case, double-blind listening tests are NOT scientific for the simple and very true reason that it takes at least days and more likely weeks or even months to get a handle on how an amp or other electronic component sounds, as anyone who has owned more than a handful of such components knows full well. Familiarity is crucial. So asking people to compare based on a few minutes of listening is a method that has such an insurmountable inbuilt fallacy that it absolutely negates the validity of the "test," period, never mind its claim to being "scientific." /argument, and Merry Christmas,

TXinD76

I have a huge respect for Nelson Pass. I have owned many of his amps and still own X250.5. I`ve also had Aleph 0 but don`t recall such statement in the manual.

Generally I agree with his statement but if the amp is worth it will be serviced after 20 years or so and the caps and other small things will be replaced.
I´ve owned a lots of amps some brand new some 40+ years. For a well designed amp with quality parts 20 years is nothing.

I also read the thread briefly but I can`t recall anyone who`s in "all amps sounds the same" school?

Merry Christmas!

Re "I also read the thread briefly but I can`t recall anyone who's in 'all amps sounds the same' school?"

Very first comment.

OK sorry I missed that.
I`ve heard of such "scientific" blind tests before and don't care to read their reports because I`m 101% confident that I hear clear differences between different amps, preamps, sources etc.

They probably used some muffled speakers and veiled preamp in their blind test so the results LOL :))

Lafayette KT-550 ? Yes, I rebuilt a couple of those and their smaller cousins
many years ago. They were really good as was the frequently disregarded Bogen equipment of the time. There has been a rampaging snobbery to the hobby for years and equipment like that old Lafayette tends to be considered junk both because it's old  and because it wasn't expensive when it was made. Bravo for mentioning it!

@plutos 
I agree with you 100%. I hear the differences between amps, preamps, tube sets. And measurements aren't everything.

Dan D'Agostino, in his Stereophile interview, said, point blank, that some of his Krell offerings measured better than his current stuff. He specifically chose sound quality over measurements in his highly acclaimed breed of new Momentum components.

Older amplifers should be refurbished, of course. The first thing that has to be replaced would be the power supply caps, as these do degrade and can fail wtih nasty consequences. As I said earlier, with luck you can fit larger modern ones as they tend to be more compact for the same value. If the amplifier has been designed competently a slow ageing of the other components should not degrade sound, or not much.
I am currently using two refurbished Quad amplifiers (a 606-2 in the main system and a 405-2 in my study). The service engineer simply replaced all resistors and capacitors, arguing that these days quality components cost very little and labour is expensive. Why test a resistor if a new one costs peanuts?

Dan D'Agostino, in his Stereophile interview, said, point blank, that some of his Krell offerings measured better than his current stuff. He specifically chose sound quality over measurements in his highly acclaimed breed of new Momentum components.

Chasing measurements will give you that clinical, dry, and lean sound. My guess is that its the sound signature of too much NFB. 

I've tried several times to replace my 20 year old amps with something comparable in price... only to be disappointed.  I own 2 Brystons... I just had my 4B-ST restored (by Bryston... an amazing deal!) and am very happy to have it working again... sounding possibly better than new with modern caps.  I also have a newer 4B-SST2... which at twice the price, does not sound better in my opinion.  It's more refined, but less exciting.  My all time favorite amp (don't laugh) is my Nakamichi PA-7AmkII.  I had it restored/recapped and it sounded better than ever for a few years, but it's now nickel & diming me with weird power up issues.  I so LOVE this amp, but wonder how much i can afford to keep it running reliably.  This is the problem with big vintage amps.  No matter how great, they can start to develop weird little problems.   I also share with the poster above... that my trusty backup amp for 20 years is a Hafler P3000.... not GREAT.. but surprisingly good!!  

Like Lancelock I have an old Mirror Image Amp a very obscure company that only lasted a flash. I recently bought a first watt F3 amp and there was no comparison between the two on my Sunfire Ribbons. Of course the older amp would be close to $10 000 in todays dollars. having tried some Class D there is something to be said to good old Class A amps. especially because it is 1 degree F today.

I have one of the first Belles 150 's made, I reckon  it to be 28 years old .
Bought few years ago for $ 400 bucks from AudioArt, one of the best guys in audio, who had it totally recapped etc and hardwired with one of his excellent $500 bucks power cords as a project ,
It's in my bedroom doing the usual Belles clarity and tone thing, I truly believe it can keep doing it for another 20 years.

-12 F in St Paul as I type this .

Great thread.  I posted a similar thread not long ago and love to read everyone's opinions. 

I have a Krell KST 100 over 20 years, maintained not the best but so what. It plays well and stopped me from looking for the next best thing and thatt's all that matters.

what changed...
90's to today? nothing.
70,80's vs. 90's yes. changed a LOT.
If you open user manual of 1980 equipment and 1990+ equipment you will see HUGE differences.
First off circuit, block diagram, service manual isn't published anymore. That is due to I guess depletion of normal human intelligence or something stimulating that depletion. If earlier people were smart enough to get to the bottom of problem by reading service manuals, now they can't. Now they get zapped and sue the manufacturer so service instruction ain't no good no mo pal since 90's. 
My solution to this problem is using and servicing units that have circuit diagrams and user manuals and let the rest of crap disposed. So I assume nothing can possible beat 80's units that are the most advance, well built and serviceable. 

My take is that this one of the most informative threads on AG in a while with very thoughtful responses. I recently got an First Watt F5 amp, my first Class A amp, and it is a glimpse into music that I had never heard before.  I dunno if all pure Class A amps have similar performance to the F5, but it is the pinnacle of amps I have had over 45 years.  It is not as powerful as my McCormack DNA .05 amp, a Class A/B amp, but between the two of them, I am very happy.  I would be very keen to find an upgraded Krell KSA-250... it is the one Class amp for which I lust. 

I am a denier of the SQ benefits of Class D amps, but I have not heard the best of them. The ones I did hear seemed to be bereft of the total musical involvement I enjoy with Class A and Class A/B amps.   I am a lover of vintage gear myself.  Again, this a great and informative thread. 

I imagine that Nelson underclocks the First Watt amps to prevent them from competing with Pass Labs. 

My Julius Futterman OTL3s are circa early 1980s. I recently had them converted from pentode to triode, and replaced all the caps with Jensen foil oil caps. They were tuned to my Altec 694Cs and to my room. 

I cannot imagine anything sounding significantly better for the money.

Good thread. I have an old Proceed Amp5 in need of TLC sitting around, that I've been debating back and forth about investing in a rebuild. It functions, but it's not working at its potential. Anyone have any thoughts?

I would think, that when comparing an older amplifier to newer designs, isn't it also essential to be certain that it still functions optimally? Maybe that's a dopey statement, but after 20 or more years, it's easy to neglect it and forget it might need refreshing.
In the case of my amp, it needs a good refurbishing, so I wouldn't dare compare it yet to anything. 

Kosst,
My F5 at the moment is being worked on very capable DIY'er, who, based discussions he has had with Nelson Pass, is doing some the upgrades you describe above.  It difficult to imagine the F5 improving, but it is logical thatat it will do so with the improvements you describe.  
Finally, there are lots of facts and opinions stated in the realm of audio blogs, but yours I consistently find the most logical and informed.  Thanks for sharing your information.  Whitestix

I just was given a Denon AVR-2805 for Christmas. It replaced my entry level Yamaha RX350 from the mid-80s. The feature I appreciate the most: "Pure Direct mode was designed for those who want the ultimate in sonic quality by shutting down all unused circuitry for the cleanest and most precise stereo sound from any audio component in your system." and the AL24 Processor which makes even low-res MP3 files sound like 24 bit.

I always steered clear of anything but a 2-ch Stereo, and quite frankly, I doubt if I will ever utilize anything but 2 ch. Pure Direct Stereo. I have no desire to watch Blu-Ray videos with 7.1 surround, or have it perfectly equalize my 1975 circa Advents. But, to the question of whether older electronics sound as good as modern? I would say, vintage still rules the roost.

My 37-year-old amp and receiver have been serviced. Fairly inexpensive process. Hopefully will last another 30. And they're far prettier than today's amps/receivers. That said, I recently switched to a newer Class D amp because it has ARC, but I will occasionally use the old ones.

Oh, and while I'm making the case, double-blind listening tests are NOT scientific for the simple and very true reason that it takes at least days and more likely weeks or even months to get a handle on how an amp or other electronic component sounds

I have at least two problems with this idea.
1. A test that's good enough and scientific enough for every other field, including those involving life and death, is not good enough for audio?
2. If it really does take that long, then the differences would have to be so ridiculously minuscule as to be nonexistent or irrelevant.

Aardbear, I'm a CJ fan; I have a PV 10A and a PV 12L. The vintage CJ preamps are very special, which is why they have high asking prices. CJ claimed they had "The golden glow" back in the 90's, but since ARC got better press, they went neutral to compete.

There are considerable differences between ARC and CJ vintage; in regard to power amps, CJ is warm and mellow, while ARC is analytical, almost SS. A CJ pre and ARC amp works for me.

Reconditioned CJ is better (Better meaning a specific sound) than the new CJ's.

I have long wanted to upgrade my aged aragon28k preamp becos it doesnt hv balanced out and ht bypass.
2yrs ago, with a budget of usd12k, i went to many dealers and demoed against current highflyers, viz. Ayre kx5, accuphase, mbl， jeff roland, ml 326s. I found that either my aragon sounded better or same.
I finally bought a simaudio 740p without audition only based on reviews becos no stock.
Sold the 740p after 3months.
Guess what? My aragon 28k sounded far superior. Better soundstage, transients, transparent, speed, punchy and crisp.
So, sadly, after 25yrs, I’m still stuck with the aragon28k which is worth maybe just usd300 used.

I am now looking at T+A, Gryphon, ARC .... but i'm skeptical even the current usd$20k preamp would sound superior to the aragon28k

Thanks for a great thread!  I am new to the world of higher end sound, but  wanted to thank the folks on this forum and Polk’s, for steering me toward a well used power amp. A year ago, I bought a pair of LSIM 707‘s, hoping to re-create the wonderful sound I heard on a friends high-end system when I was in my teens (in the 60’s).  Unfortunately, my home theater amp, a Denon AVR 1909, was not up to the task, so I put the speakers on ice until I could afford a better amp.   Earlier this year, I picked up a Parasound 2100 preamp, and as Christmas approached, I decided to see how much power amp I could get  in the ballpark of $1000.  I liked what I had heard about the Parasound A21,  but I  didn’t  have $2500 to spend on a new one, and I wasn’t sure I wanted to buy a used amp (even if I could’ve found a used A21 for close to a thousand dollars, which I couldn’t).  I decided to go with the A21’s junior sibling, the 2250.   Around that time, I started to hear  about the old McCormack DNA series on the Polk and Agon blogs.   I found a 20-year old DNA-1 Deluxe on sale for $1000, and decided to grab it and compare it to the new 2250.   Long story short:  The 2250 is a nice amp, but the old, dusty DNA-1 blew it away!  The new Parasound went back yesterday, and the McCormack will be staying (maybe someday I’ll pay for SMC or CJ to do the upgrade, but for now the stock Deluxe is all I need).  I’m a very happy camper, and am glad I listened to you all.  20-year-old amps are indeed worth the money, and more. If and when I  want to take my system to the next level, I suspect I will look into an even better pair of speakers.  But for now, I am just planning to enjoy a new level of audio for a while, rebuild my music library, and smile. Thanks, and have a Happy New Year!

My buddy loaned me his Muse One Hundred amp a few days ago. It's gotta be old. 15 years? More? Anyhoo, it's chewy textured delish. Love it. Making my speakers jump for joy.

For anyone that is uncertain if their 20 year old Krell or Levinson is still any good please send it to me and I will check it out and if necessary dispose of it in an environmentally safe way......

There's a re-capped Krell FPB-300 listed on Audiogon right now...

My CJ MF2300a hit 20 years old and all the caps needed replacing.  Would have been a fortune if I sent back to CJ but found a local ex-employee to do it for a reasonable cost...from what I gather, capacitors from 20 years ago had a tendency to leak or bulge making them prone to failure.   I'd avoid buying these devices and would opt for a newer device (and did recently).

I don't think my 30+ year old refreshed amp would be terribly embarrassed by most of today's offerings.

Hafler guy here again!...:) My 9180 is 23 years young and continues to delight. I am not an audiophile in terms of knowledge or equipment purchasing power. An audiophile in terms of enjoying music since I was very young.
I presume there are many amps produced since Rockford Corp., stopped producing this gem that out pace it.  

Following this line of logic, the Bryson 7B is as good as the 7BSST, the 7BSST squared and the 7B cubed. The Pass Labs X350 is as good as the X350.5 or the X350.8.  How do they manage to maintain this farce?

@hikmer - how did you determine that the caps needed to be replaced on your CJ? Was there a physical clue like bulging or leaking of electrolyte or did the SQ change?

@mikexxyz In regards to the caps needing replacement on my CJ MF2300a, I noticed for a long while that my lower frequencies did not sound as even or solid as I thought they should.  I did some research and found a few companies that would do enhancements to the amplifier and when I sent a photo for the insides told me the caps were bulging which is a sign of capacitor failure.  I decided to have them replaced and there was a marked improvement but I have recently acquired a newly built DNA-1 which I find much better in most areas of sonics and performance.    

Bruno Putzey said in an interview earlier this year that if Class D sounds good, it sounds good despite the fact that it is Class D, not because it is Class D. Bruno basically said that efficiency is the only reason to molest a signal so dramatically.

Did Bruno actually say this?

If he did, huge props to him. Give that man a hug. for, in class d amps..the signal is horribly molested and it is nearly impossible to put it back together without large amounts of micro levels of continual high order harmonic distortions.

These micro distortions are heard as tonality and mistaken for detail, by the ears that seek out the micro detail that they so desperately desire.

I’ve looked at such designs extensively, and done my best to correct the deficiencies. The problem came when I asked permission from the given manufacturer(s) to base a released product on said designs. They all said no. I spent almost a full year of design time energy, and even ended up creating a new power supply configuration in the process. All left on the cutting room floor. Oh well. Lesson learned. One pair of the monoblocks did make it to a show and was reported by most, as the best class d amps they’d yet heard.

Class d can be repaired but it is still a step backward before the power switch is even flipped on. Which is kinda what Bruno just said, if the quote is true....

Thank You-  hikmer
pm sent.

I have an Ayre V1xe which is almost 20 yrs old....I called Ayre to get their view of getting a look at my amp for degraded parts.   He told me that there was little sense in sending back the amp....unless I dropped it from the 4th floor, all will be working as designed.

Class D's don't make the music I want to listen to.   The only Class D amp that would work for me is the Merrill, but it is expensive