Zu def 4 are they the best speaker made?

Nice ad
 There is no such thing as the best anything in high end audio
Alan

Lots of xlnt speakers less than $16k, much less over that

I agree, it sounds like an ad from a paid fan boy

I have heard a few ZU speakers in my audio lifetime and I would say that to me  they are forward sounding and bright.  Not for me.

I have also heard a few ZU speakers and none of them sounded bright or forward. It’s all about the combination of components used, system senergy.

52tiger, agree, the Def 4 is one of the most lifelike speakers I have ever heard and I have listened to many due to working in the audio industry for ~25 years.

I said in my opinion, you didn't,

your probably dealers for way way more expensive speakers

Big Zu fan myself and still own a modified Druid.

It’s funny how I just got into a big argument along the same lines with some panel speaker owners. This is not to say that other speakers don’t make great music but there is a realistic quality that Zu speakers get right that others just don’t. Not many prioritize this quality in their system. I think Cobra has address this much better than anyone else.

I have heard a few ZU speakers in my audio lifetime and I would say that to me  they are forward sounding and bright. Not for me.

Same here.  I've known Sean for a long time and think he's a brilliant designer and a wonderful guy.  I have just never warmed up to his speakers and I've heard them with numerous combinations of gear.  My Zu Audio/Denon cartridge is da bomb though.

Funny that one of the posters above mention panel speakers...yeah that's me, but I have owned a lot of others too.

IMHO, speakers are the one thing, (well, let's say mostly the one thing) that are more personal, (as far as sound quality goes) than any other component.  And are usually the hottest debated and stood up for...

I heard Zu speakers at Axpona twice (two different years) and I couldn’t believe how bad they sounded. I visited the room multiple times on multiple days and each time it was a walk in walk out. The people I was with all agreed.

Hey, didn't some guy file some patents recently that made all other loudspeakers obsolete?  I thought everybody knew that.

Nothing wrong with liking your new loudspeakers and letting the world know about it.  What would it all be about if we didn't have enthusiasm?

When someone says something is the best or among the best of anything, that statement only has meaning if there is context.  What else did the person hear and find wanting compared to that product?  There is no way for anyone to have seriously auditioned anything but a small fraction of what is available, but still, it would help to know what else was heard and why those do not measure up.  

I have heard the Zu Def 4 and they are, in many respects, very good speakers--very clear and dynamic sounding.  I like that kind of sound myself.  But, if someone thought that the transient attack was too hard and brittle sounding, I would understand that sentiment too. Not that many commercial speakers are as dynamic as the Zu, so I can understand if someone is swept away by hearing them.  But, it would be interesting to know how many other systems with that kind of dynamics and clarity the OP had heard, e.g., Classic Audio Reproduction field-coil speakers, a good vintage Western Electric horn system, modern horn system with ALE or Cogent or Goto drivers, Acapella speakers, Horning speakers?  This list can go on and on.

The single driver high efficiency speakers have a sound that is unique to that design. Some like it some don't. I have only enjoyed them in smaller, more intimate, near field low volume listening settings. The larger multi driver power hungry speakers have a completely different application. I like them both in two different rooms.

This was the best made and to this day is near impossible to beat. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/lmco/shearer.htm

"Hey, didn't some guy file some patents recently that made all other loudspeakers obsolete? I thought everybody knew that."

I love it.

Kenny.

Hey, didn't some guy file some patents recently that made all other loudspeakers obsolete? I thought everybody knew that.

Yeah, obsolete on arrival and has only one tweeter, so sad!

speakers are 'personal' because all of them have severe compromises - even the top notch ones

each person then gets to select which compromises bother them the least

that said, ZU seems to evoke strong pro- and anti- responses -- more so than most brands 

Has Zu started doing something different recently? people I trust have raved about the product but only in the last year or two. 

contuzzi79 posts08-22-2017 12:40amI heard Zu speakers at Axpona twice (two different years) and I couldn’t believe how bad they sounded. I visited the room multiple times on multiple days and each time it was a walk in walk out. The people I was with all agreed.


This matches my experience exactly. I wanted to like them and couldn't stand to stay in the room. There were people in there smiling, and I still can't figure out why.

Evaluating components at a show can be a bit tricky.  If the sound is really good, you can be sure that the speakers are at least capable of delivering good sound.  But, if they sound bad, it is hard to know if the set up is the cause.  If the same speakers sound bad at different shows and in multiple rooms, that does give you a hint.  I have heard the Def 4s at several shows and in many rooms.  Often, it does sound quite aggressive and unpleasant.  But, in a few setups, it sounded quite good, which, to me, means it is capable of sounding good.  

For some reason, most of the setups I heard used powerful solid state amps.  I would think, given the efficiency of the speaker, it would be something that could be matched to lower-powered tube gear (my preference).

Johnk nominates the 80+ year old Shearer system as the best ever made.  It certainly is a contender, as is a number of Western Electric systems, and more modern clones of such classic systems.  I have been listening a lot to custom systems being built these days by Deja Vu Audio utilizing an assortment of drivers from Western Electric, YL, UPC, etc. I like what can be done with such drivers.  The current build that is being fine tuned utilizes 18" Jensen field-coil woofers (reconed with original, unused cones and pleated surround), a WE 713a compression driver and WE 32 horn, and RP302 tweeter, and a vintage WE crossover.  I wish everyone could get a chance to hear this sort of system.  It would certainly surprise those who hate horn systems based on their exposure to Klipsch or common Altec systems.

I have a pair of Def 4s and they sound like the signal coming into them. I think Sean showcases the dynamics of the speaker, which is great but not necessarily by itself an end all goal for most. 
They can sound any way you want them to sound. With the right signal they are warm and revealing at the same time. I have actually gone too far and had them sound too warm, and I am in the camp of liking slightly warm presentation. It is hard to conceive warm and dynamic but it happens in this case. 

RE best speakers made? uh... nope. Probablay not.

In Good Fellas Peci confronted another uy about his commentary on 'funny'. Funny How?


best ever how? Value? estehtics? materials? Performance alone? etc.


I’ve noticed the greatest percentage of the time, and I mean, like 90 -97% of the time, the retail price on the high end audio device is pretty close to how it performs. Of course, ultra ultra high end stuff has a different measuring stick.

Example, $10K speakers are usually better than $5K speakers. I don’t have to know a lot more initially than what playing field things are on financially. Eventually I will need to become more vested.

I usually look for a great sound first. Normally it means there is a good setup happening. It means too, the speakers are most capable and removed from further suspicion of being a weak link.

I try to listen in as close to the speakers as I can get, reasonably. Staying just a few feet away, and it doesn’t matter much as to which speaker. Although I will do the same thing with both. I’m only looking for tonality, richness, naturalness, speed. Nothing from the staging. Not looking for imaging. Listening for what low end extension is or may be there.

I’m trying to remove the room as much as I can from the sounds the speaker can generate. If, when, or where ever possible. This routine isn’t likely done at a group showing I’m pretty sure.

If a setup using the same speakers repeatedly sounds bad or just off in a few areas, it is hard to decide what is amiss.

But it only takes one instance of speakers providing great sonics to indicate it is not the fault of the speakers when they are not sounding great. Speakers can be bi polar “di ploes’, but they are not manic. They are merely the true slaves of a system.

Great speakers tell us what is happening up stream. The room thru the speakers is telling you how much they are being held back or up, or supported.

I don’t feel bad rooms make great speakers sound bad. Bad rooms make great speakers not sound as good as they could or should.

The real issue is applying appropriate blame.

Abrupt run in periods, bad power, mismatched amps & speaker combos, these items can really adversely affect speaker performance regardless the room.

If all 3 facets of the demonstration are at odds, poor amp to speaker match, power line issues, and unfriendly room are present, chances are the presentation ain’t gonna be good despite the expense of the various products..

Traveling gear takes time to reacquire its legs. Posts have been made on these pages reflecting such things as altitude making or forcing chages to the equipment. I’ve noticed too, merely mixing in and out various ICs can take a full day for them to resettle in.

If one stops to really consider all the various factors that need to fall in line for a recently arranged and ‘temporary’ audio system to perform great, well, it’s a mix of good stuff, lots of exp, a bit of luck, and if it all comes off sounding great, my hat’s off to whomever formulated the setup..

I would prefer to have my gear setup as a static display, if the sound of it all playing was not on par with its usual nature.

I have one of the first pairs of Definition 4s (having upgraded from the Def 2s). Sean delivered them and set them up personally; cannot ask for more. I have been lucky with great customer service from Zu, Ancient Audio (Krakow, Poland), and DejaVu Audio (Vienna, VA).  All three seem to be on a mission to make their customers happy. I have tried several SETs and have settled on a 300b SET as a good compromise between sufficient power (no, I have not tried an 845 SET) and warmth. 

As I have mentioned in other posts, it was a real plus to be able to audition Zu speakers at home - and for a protracted period of time. I cannot imagine spending 10k+ after hearing speakers only at a show - regardless of how good they sounded. Conversely, I would never dismiss or form any negative opinion about any speaker based on how it sounded at one or even many shows. The home and show environments are so different. 

I owned a pair of Union's. When hooked up to Atma Ma-1's and an MP-3, they gave my Vandy Treo's a pretty good run for the money.
However, they lacked a certain depth- hard to put into words. 
Perhaps the Definition's are a better speaker, but I'll stick with my Vandy's for my main room.
My office has a pair of Omen Bookshelf speakers (MK2). 
I like them.
B

Best speaker .I would rephrase it most musical Louddpeaker, Hardly 
Not even in the top 20. There are way too many  high quality
Reference speakers out there.

I’ve owned druid mk3, omen, and now the definition pro with upgraded drivers and tweeters. the older druid’s didn’t work for me, not sure why, i think zu hadn’t really figuired out the design of the version of the driver they were using at the time it or possibly was a mismatchwith my tact millenium and I wasn’t willing to give up my millenium at the tim. omen’s were fine but at that pricepoint you can’t expect too much. My definition pro’s are just about a perfect match with my First Watt Sit-2 amp and ps audio perfectwave dac. have owned them for a few years and and will keep them for many more. The newest generation of the drivers that Zu is using today are pretty spot as far as transparency and detail is concerned.

I heard the Druid MK VI’s recently and they sound really really good. One negative I could discern, and this is something that I remember from my old druid’s, is that to me, snare’s just don’t sound right. There’s a grit and courseness to snare drum’s that doesn’t sound natural. Bottom end extension with no accompanying subwoofer was impressive. I actually thought they were running a sub and they weren’t. Was told they spent quite a lot of time dialing in the speaker placement. They can’t touch my Definition Pro’s tho’. not even close.

With all that, what I truly don’t understand are the price increases that have occured over the years. Mk3/4 druid’s retailed at $3500(I paid 1900 on sale and they were worth 1900 not 3500 imo), MK 5 was something like 6500? And MK6 are now a whopping 10K! which is older Definition territory. I want to know what kinda special sauce they are putting in that s--- to justify the steep increases. Def’s are now 17K! Zu used to be about somewhat affordable audio, no longer it seems.

Yes

Unless you are playing them outside, the room has the most impact on how a system will perform. That's the bottom line.

maybe these speakers just work with the op's set up.  I've had a few speakers in my systems over the last 30+ years.

I currently run a fully modified and upgraded pair of SoundLab A1's augmented with a pair of Sunfire Subrosa subs.

so far, that's been "the best" speaker set up I've had. Before that it was a pair of Carver Amazings... so as someone else pointed out.. it is all about room interaction and context, plus your personal preferences..

Love the Zu guys.
Something very appealing about the "live" quality of their high sensitivity speakers. I have had Druid in and out of my setup several times. But they are currently sitting disconnected in the hallway. Because for me tonal balance is a priority. Check the response curve:
http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/zucable_druid/
They are very fun listening, but not an everyday solution according to my preferences.
PS. That curve is for an older version. I hope someone can post a link to measurements for a more current model. It probably looks a lot better. Of course measurements aren’t everything.

Best speaker ever made? You gotta be kidding... If anything, it's one of the worst, and for the money, definitely not worth it.

Bad bass, horrible blurry mids, crappy extension, and for all their high efficiency, not even that dynamic or lively even.

The damn things sell for $16900. There's like a million better products out there for HALF this money, let alone at this price.

I definitely don't get it.

I think I saw Zu speakers at an audio show only once. They kept me less than 30 seconds in the room. Don't remember the model or any details, just the brand.

Also, I remember reading this comment about some Zu speakers (yes, it was for a cheaper model):

**** Munich High-End 2016 ****
"Right: Zu loudspeaker from whizzer cone driver and compression driver fitted with waveguide. The speaker sounded plain awful. Close to worst sound on show." 
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/MUNICH-2016.htm

Nice ad, though. 

I don't know why there is always so much debate on speakers and electronics. Doesn't it stand to reason that in taking account of room acoustics, individuality in people's hearing with regard to even hearing all the frequency spectrum, and the wide range of electronics, electric cords, conditioners, wire connectors, etc. . . . not to mention the constant “improvements” that never quite get to the perfecting of sound reproduction . . . that there is a lot of spoof in advertising -- not to mention brainwashing with regard to all of this?

I grant you that there are improvements in equipment . . . but these breakthroughs, I feel, will ALWAYS be there, as it is the lifeblood of the industry. It is like medicine . . . always finding ways to mask symptoms and always coming up with medical breakthroughs -- but RARELY, if ever, a CURE.

Half the fun, I am convinced, is the man child comparing how much he paid for his equipment and then debating just how much better it is than his neighbor's setup . . . not to mention how everyone seems to have those “golden ears” that set them above everyone else in telling them what to buy, which is the newest BEST . . . that is, until it becomes last months old news. Hey, it is the proverbial carrot that is being dangled in front of a hungry man's face that keep the cash flow going and opens up a man's wallet to spend how many hundreds of thousands of dollars by the public -- knowing full well that this stuff is marked-up two-thirds over the value and the cost of making the product in the first place.

As I recall, we all just salivated just seeing the latest and greatest when going into the stereo stores . . . let alone everyone just mesmerized as the sales person told us what we are hearing -- and believed it.

It is a grand hobby -- always will be; however, doesn't commonsense dictate that somewhere along the line that “carrot” will be always hanging just slightly out of reach of music narvana?

I do believe that link provided above is for their new and improved Druid 6.

I have already had 2 different Zu speakers and all I can say is never again.

Kenny.

This thread is a good micro summary of the history of postings on Zu speakers, IMO.  Some people clearly love them, and some clearly hate them.  Perhaps less sit in the middle, although there seem to be some owners or previous owners in that camp too.  Quite polarized.

The shows don't always seem to do Zu a bunch of favors.  I suspect blindjim nailed some of the reasons very well in his explanation as to why.  Settling and power factors seem to be completely true with my Zu experience in my own home.  From my personal experience with amp matching at home, and reading show reviews over the years for Zu, I might question some of the amp choices that Sean has chosen for previous shows (several years back for sure).  Peachtree stuff probably won't blow your mind at a show.  Nelson Pass' SIT-2 is a great solid state amp--I own it--but in my opinion it doesn't produce mind-blowing results with my Zus.

I'm going to get my 4th pair of Zus next month in Druid 6's.  I own 2 of their more entry models in Unions and Cubes, and have been running their Soul Supremes in my main system for about 3 years.  The first 2 sets were good--I still own them and have them in various systems around the house.  I love the Soul Supremes, as they are clearly in a different league.  I have not owned or heard Def 4s, but I suspect given the shared drivers, I can imagine how they can sound in the right sized room (my room is quite small at 11x16ish) paired with the right amps and pre-amp.

I post only to note that it's my opinion that the absolute "best" SET amps and properly matched pre-amps are likely needed to really get the highest end Zu's to deliver on what the "Zu sound and design" is truly capable of delivering.  If you pair the lower models (Unions, Cubes, etc.) or OLDER models of Druids or even Definitions (I suspect) with these highest-end amp/pre combos, you might get good to really good sound, but it won't be great or phenomenal by many highest-end standards (some older Zu owners will disagree with me I'm sure).

IMO, only their latest offerings (from my readings and experience) are likely to match what their biggest fans will claim as to how good they are or can be.  The Unions and Cubes, for example, are clearly in a lower-level than their newer, higher-end speakers.  Like WAY different, so when people hate the Zu sound, I look for what models and eras they heard, and with what supporting components, or in what poorly set up show.  They can ABSOLUTELY be made to sound mediocre or even bad, so I don't doubt a single poster on his/her experience having heard some Zus somewhere sound bad.  I have too, in my own home.

Similarly, pair their newer, higher end speakers with only decent amps and pre-amps, and the combos may not blow anyone away either.  Especially by the really high standards many of us have from experience with other systems.

As the OP suggested, I do find that a REALLY great 845 SET amp pairs very, very well with Zu's higher-end stuff (read ~$5K speakers and up).  You can read elsewhere that others who really feel the cross-overless nature of Zu's highest-end speakers are most ideally matched with very expensive SET amps, in both 845 and 300b.  

So how many of us have heard Zu's best stuff with $20K SET amps and a $15K pre-amp of like quality to really hear what their capable of--I suspect not that many, and that may also be some of the reasons for the polarization...the Zu range of speakers over the years can and will produce an insanely wide range of sound quality depending on a number of factors. 

And for those of us who have heard those absolutel best combos, you may still NOT like the sound due to all the personal reasons that are reflected in these forums as so naturally subjective in the first place.

Answer to original post: No. My opinion (with my ears, brain, etc.), of course.

Zu was a fad for a while. They have their die hard fans but the truth is that sticking bass guitar woofers in a box and calling it a speaker makes a lousy speaker.

I agree that the ZUs are the best speaker made. I’ve never heard them myself, I agree as someone who owns bass speakers and other full range drivers (mostly in boxes for for electric guitar or bass duty) that these things seem pricey for what they are, and the back and forth love/hate thing seems to hang around this brand more than most, but, clearly, these are the best speakers made.

My 2 cents:
I never had the chance to hear the newest Defs. However I auditioned some other models that I really enjoyed, always at the same dealer demo room (in Hong Kong). And one day I was blown by how fantastic the sound was coming from that combo - Zu Omen Def and LM219ia amplifier. That was the sound I was looking for, but way too expensive for my wallet. 
Later one day I found a pair of Zu Omen Def new from factory for half the retail price. I bought it! And one year later I jumped on a Line Magnetic 219ia for a quarter of the price (almost mint). So I got the exact same combo as at the dealer's room. The result? Far from fantastic in my living room. These speakers are very room and position dependent. I just keep the whole setup because I know what it's capable of and because I'm moving soon to a better house where I'll have a proper listening room. 
If the Zu are the best speakers ever made? Probably not, there's no such thing... But they really are amazing together with a 300B/845 SET as my LM219ia. 
I love their sound. Some people hate it. 

I dont understand the guys who say   YES, Of course. you have to trust
you ears, but also you have to understand and follow up 
The measuring and basic sound knowledge. If you hear something
about baffle step, and take a look on measuring characteristic , you 
see big      http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/zucable_druid/
failure in midbass. It especially made piano  very bad. Also Whizzer
cone made high too bright.  Folk don be as ZOMBI 

Ears SCHMEARS! Zu makes the best speakers and everybody knows it…they might not sound better, or look better, or fell better (!), but hey…they're the best.

No...the Zu speakers seem to have terrible frequency response measurements.  I'm not all about measurements but they clearly are colored and overpriced.

I meant "feel" better as "fell" better would make my post seem ridiculous.

I have had the omen defs (with MK ii tweeter upgrade) since 2012. I love how they sound and I listen to everything. Once you dial in (placement, bottom gap, etc), they are wonderful to my ears. 

Bache is posting measurements from 2002 that don't even work right (the speaker was lifted in air despite a downward firing port).

at least use Stereophiles more recent ones:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-audio-soul-supreme-loudspeaker-measurements

Keithr@   Position of Speaker dont important for reproduction midbass
Please read https://www.trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm
This is a problem can be corrected by using  baffle step crossover
or multiply speakers , or using very big baffle

For those of you who are concerned about measurements. . .  The ZuAudio website (About>Downloads) has measurements made in my living room using my pair of Definition 4s; they are part of both the downloadable owner's manual (definition mk.iv owner's manual) and downloadable specs (definition mk.iv ad copy + specs).

I refer to main idea why the most of the single driver speakers
with crossoverless design get issue with baffle step or
Loudspeaker Diffraction Loss https://www.trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm
it does not matter how the get measurement , especially all manufacture
put it manuals very flat response .  it is very clear if you provide
piano test.  It also explain why is    single or 2 way speakers with
wide baffle ( some vintage) sound better , them new narrow baffle