Zu def 4 are they the best speaker made?

Zu Audio Factory visit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9lIuTuzjEg 

 A lot people think the Zu Soul Supremes are the best kept secret !

Jas, nothing much else re this combination. I believe Zu needs about 40W to come alive...in my case 70W triodes gets my Defs 4 to fully saturate my space approx 4x larger than most standard living spaces.

Hey, sorry to revive a dead thread here... But I’m running a vintage 40wpc (McIntosh mc240) and I’m looking to find a highly sensitive full-range speaker. Horn arrays are out of the question (WAF).

I find it’s hard to find anything to compete against these ZUs....What else is out there with a full range (sub included, or meaningful bass extension) and this (101db) kind of sensitivity? In a single floorstander? Price no option.

Is the subwoofer section hard to dial in on the definitions? Basically, like setting up a traditional subwoofer?

I’ve had my Def 4s about 5 years now and feel I can make some valid observations. They are very dependent on the amps and electronics upstream. Their transparency is revealed with certainty with the slightest variable introduced. Yes the right amps, preamp, front end, tubes selected all become a factor, I believe more so than many speakers due to the fact that the full range drivers are wired directly to the amps.
Their immediacy is startling and somewhat unusual, but their variation on different source material tells me they don’t color as much as reveal what the source provides.
Another pair of other factors are significant. The down firing subs are sensitive to room placement as distance from the walls and reflection play into the equation. The other factor is their sensitivity. While this makes them ultra dynamic in both a macro and micro sense it also causes them to be very sensitive to noise in the electricity. When this is addressed effectively depth and presence increase, giving a very in the room, at the hall presentation.  With the elimination of crossovers very little is masked and realism is there in spades.
I doubt the audio shows allow this level of setup and this is largely responsible for the widely variable opinions regarding them. Frankly, with dirty power they can sound pretty shouty. 
Spirit’s opinion as stated "in his room" carries more info than might be evident on the surface. When one has a speaker like the Def 4 the potential begs the effort to address what might bring it to fruition. Some things are just worth working for.

I have not, but I'm headed to DC in a month or so, I'll definitely check them out.  

Sean, Gerrit, Harvey, Ian and the rest of the crew are all awesome people.  They are incredibly knowledgeable and know how to help.  

Have you ever visited DejaVu Audio in the Washington DC area? Most of the staff are young and approachable. It is my favorite audio store. 

Sean delivered and set up my Def 4s personally. I have not moved them from where he positioned them. And if you call ZuAudio, a real person answers the phone, is helpful, etc.

Of course, I didn't meant to imply otherwise.  But, let's be honest, the industry is catering to older people who already have the money to spend on very expensive systems.  They are doing nothing to foster relationships and bring new, young people into the lifestyle.  I have walked into every stereo shop in my area and been treated like a second rate citizen because I'm young, and I don't dress to impress the salesmen.  The industry is missing out on a huge opportunity with the revival of vinyl in younger circles.  HiFi shops and exhibitors should be falling over themselves to talk to young people that visit them, not shun them for not having $100K to spend on their first set up.     

You hit the nail on the head when you said that Sean and his colleagues are, "invariably customer friendly."  They will talk shop with anyone and that is why it is so maddening to see how they are treated at times (not all the time).  They are the nicest, most approachable people in the industry.  I am very appreciative of companies and reviewers who put information on Youtube.  I used to walk up to them at shows and thank them for their work and information.  Not a single time did they look me in the eye and engage me in conversation or give me more than a one word reply.  Trying to engage the AV showrooms crew was the worst experience I've had since entering the hobby.

Back to the OP's original post.  I have never had the pleasure of hearing the Defs, but I have a good friend (that is twice my age) who has the new Druid Mk VIs and they are the best speakers I have ever heard.  They were good at RMAF, but in his home, they are mind blowing.  They are a completely different speaker than the Druid Vs and there is very good justification for the big jump in price. 

One point that was brought up earlier in the thread is that people don't like how Zu's product sounds with the amps they are paired with at shows.  I can tell you, that when you pair their speakers with the proper gear, you will be greatly rewarded.

My wife and I researched and listened to every option in our price range and not a single thing came close to the realism, sound stage, clarity, or emotion that our speakers produced.  Ignore the haters, most of them are shops or salesmen who don't like when a company sells direct and produces a significantly better product for a fraction of the price.  

Oh. And I hope that I have more than a “handful” of years to live. 

That's awesome!  I get a ton of new music from them every time I visit their room as well.  My last post was a tad militant, sorry about the attack on age, but I get so frustrated when people hate a company with no cause that is doing so much good for the industry.  I've also witnessed a lot of older gentlemen say a lot of nasty/rude things to the Zu crew because they didn't like their music.  My wife and I are hoping to upgrade to the Defs soon or possibly the Experience when they come out.   

I have Zu Def 4s and like them a lot. I visit Zu rooms (ie, at last weekend's CAF) both to say hello to Sean and his colleagues (who are invariably customer friendly) as well as to collect "new music" - or at least music that is new to me. It is a terrible way to evaluate most equipment. It is a great way to collect new music. And I am one of the old white guys rapidly approaching 70 (although I do not hobble) . . . 

One thing that cracks me up with this thread is that people are judging Zu's sound based on what they hear at shows.  Zu doesn't play the same 10, "audiophile" tracks that you hear in EVERY ROOM AT EVERY SHOW.  They play real music that they and younger audiophiles want to hear and they hardly ever play the same track twice.  I've had the pleasure of hanging out in their room (no I'm not a, "paid fanboy") and watched 70+ year old men hobble out of their room shaking their heads.  So what?  The industry shouldn't be catering too the old guys with all the money and a handful of years to live.  That is why the industry is dying.  Companies should be catering to younger people who still have their hearing with a dream of owning amazing sounding speakers.  I'm young, my wife is young, we still have our hearing and we visit every single room at every show we go to.  We visited every room at RMAF before we easily and without hesitation settled on Zu speakers.  Why did we go with Zu?  Because you can sit in front of them all day and not get listening fatigue.  Because you can run them all day every day.  Because you can have a serious listening session with aesthetically beautiful speakers, an amazing sound stage, clear musical bass, crystal clear and unoffensive highs, and a beautiful midrange. 
Personally, I think the thing that pisses, "audiophiles" off about Zu is their anti audiophile image.  You can't take young, charismatic, and edgy people in your stuffy industry.  But hey, I'm just a lazy, entitled millennial, so what do i know.         

Interestingly (at least to me) one of the characteristics of the Heresy III is that although it doesn't do deep bass (they just bail at 58hz or so), when I turn the subs off to hear the bass they do manage to produce they have an extremely coherent and clear tone...great mid bass actually...but the subs fill in that last bit of room warming deep bass.

Sorry, i mean Lack of midbass. , in the speakers based om wide band
driver . @wolf_garcia  for 3 way Klipsch Heresy i assume you 
have enough midbass (Luck)

I'm sticking with "luck" as it seems more interesting. And to respond to his response, I use 3 way Klipsch Heresy IIIs crossing at 850 and 5000hz with 2 dissimilar REL subs (a 10' front firing and a an 8" down firing) so there is no luck of mid bass. 

I think our friend Mr Bache means LACK of midbass.

@wolf_garcia
yes luck midbass is issue, coudn  fixed by add active woofer module
because is cover 20-150hz, and  you can see  gap (if you use any measurement system)  up to 700Hz,   good designed 3 way conventional
speakers is free from this problem , using crosspoint 500-700hz, and
balanced . To avoid this issue  in  high sensitivity LS
based on wide range driver like Zu 10"   i see only one way  to add additional midbass driver to fill this gap , and make is active ( loaded
on separate amp and active crossover) i know is complicated , but
it was made it in  my  Bache audio-002 http://bacheaudio.com/bache-audio-002ab-loudspeakers-v2-stereotimes-com/

PWI (posting while intoxicated) is seldom a wise decision Bache. 

Well said Bache, and indeed, luck midbass seems to be an issue.

 I  was going  to  explain the anatomy  Zu  Definishion speakers and main
difference from convenience 3 way Hi end speakers,  but some
audiophile dont like long post and  technical explanation . 
To say shortly , Zu Def get luck midbass .  How is affect to sound , is less body full.. less piano low registred, less punch  to compare . 

Mlsstl,  I'm a prog rock fan as well as Zu acolyte, so you're mentioning all the BEST things.
The BEST genre, thru the BEST spkrs, sounds the BEST ever.
Now, are we done? LOL

This discussion is like a progressive rock fan trying to get a blues fanatic to agree that his favorite band is the better than any other musical group out there. (You can substitute any other group/musician/genre you wish to create a meaningful example for yourself.)

It ain't gonna happen; no agreement will be reached.

Why is it such a hard concept to understand that each of us has our own preferences whether the subject is speakers, music, food, sports, and on and on?

Mine too!!

They’re certainly the best ever speaker, IN MY ROOM, SYSTEM, EXPERIENCE.
But since no one else has my room, system, experience, it’s a bit of a mute point as an opinion/question.
I’ve been running them since 2013, initially with Hovland tube HP200 pre/Radia SS power, then all-tube Audion Quattro pre/Black Shadow 845 SETs, and now all-tube Nat Audio Utopia pre/SE2SE 211 SETs.
The NATs are truly special powering the Def4s.
I’ve modded them with Sean-approved Lundahl transformers and Duelund caps, replaced the stock spikes w Symposium Rollerblocks, and most critically installed them in a new room with plenty of space around them (9’ to front walls, 4’ to side walls, 8’ apart, 12’ to seat) with absolutely stunning acoustics (I am truly blessed with my new room), and bulletproof power (isolated feed to room, 8kVA Westwick balanced power, Oyaides dedicated lines).
What was a pretty enjoyable but overly rough sound in my old, poor room, has now transformed into a world-beating one. Bass is truly controlled, expressive, extended and nimble. Mids are the biggest winner, maintaining the Zu DNA of tone density and immersion, but now doing the audiophile checklist of stage depth, imaging, texture, delicacy and air. Treble is sweet and sublime.
Its taken 5 years to get to this point, especially 12 months of wrangling the new room, spending a fortune on it in the process, but the Definitions are truly revealed to be stellar performers, with what I still contend is a unique combination of horn-like immediacy, old-school heft, texture and density, with a real ability to communicate the musicians’ intent. Here the true 101dB efficiency always shows its advantages.
But as I’ve found, they can flatter to deceive, and it’s taken me a spend 7x what I paid for them, on room acoustics and power grid, and very careful setup to get them to reveal their true magic.
I contend I may very well have the best sounding pr of Definitions 4 in existence.
And so, yes, the Definitions 4s are the best spkrs ever made.

Yes, best meat is the chicken . Why ?  Because. 

So, to sum up, ZU Def 4s are the best speakers. Done. This fact does simplify things as I'm sometimes asked, "Garcia, what are the best speakers?" Now I just say, "ZU Def 4s." It's kind of a relief really…now I can move on to other issues I've been neglecting.

I refer to main idea why the most of the single driver speakers
with crossoverless design get issue with baffle step or
Loudspeaker Diffraction Loss https://www.trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm
it does not matter how the get measurement , especially all manufacture
put it manuals very flat response .  it is very clear if you provide
piano test.  It also explain why is    single or 2 way speakers with
wide baffle ( some vintage) sound better , them new narrow baffle 

For those of you who are concerned about measurements. . .  The ZuAudio website (About>Downloads) has measurements made in my living room using my pair of Definition 4s; they are part of both the downloadable owner's manual (definition mk.iv owner's manual) and downloadable specs (definition mk.iv ad copy + specs).

Keithr@   Position of Speaker dont important for reproduction midbass
Please read https://www.trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm
This is a problem can be corrected by using  baffle step crossover
or multiply speakers , or using very big baffle

Bache is posting measurements from 2002 that don't even work right (the speaker was lifted in air despite a downward firing port).

at least use Stereophiles more recent ones:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-audio-soul-supreme-loudspeaker-measurements

I have had the omen defs (with MK ii tweeter upgrade) since 2012. I love how they sound and I listen to everything. Once you dial in (placement, bottom gap, etc), they are wonderful to my ears. 

I meant "feel" better as "fell" better would make my post seem ridiculous.

No...the Zu speakers seem to have terrible frequency response measurements.  I'm not all about measurements but they clearly are colored and overpriced.

Ears SCHMEARS! Zu makes the best speakers and everybody knows it…they might not sound better, or look better, or fell better (!), but hey…they're the best.

I dont understand the guys who say   YES, Of course. you have to trust
you ears, but also you have to understand and follow up 
The measuring and basic sound knowledge. If you hear something
about baffle step, and take a look on measuring characteristic , you 
see big      http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/zucable_druid/
failure in midbass. It especially made piano  very bad. Also Whizzer
cone made high too bright.  Folk don be as ZOMBI 

My 2 cents:
I never had the chance to hear the newest Defs. However I auditioned some other models that I really enjoyed, always at the same dealer demo room (in Hong Kong). And one day I was blown by how fantastic the sound was coming from that combo - Zu Omen Def and LM219ia amplifier. That was the sound I was looking for, but way too expensive for my wallet. 
Later one day I found a pair of Zu Omen Def new from factory for half the retail price. I bought it! And one year later I jumped on a Line Magnetic 219ia for a quarter of the price (almost mint). So I got the exact same combo as at the dealer's room. The result? Far from fantastic in my living room. These speakers are very room and position dependent. I just keep the whole setup because I know what it's capable of and because I'm moving soon to a better house where I'll have a proper listening room. 
If the Zu are the best speakers ever made? Probably not, there's no such thing... But they really are amazing together with a 300B/845 SET as my LM219ia. 
I love their sound. Some people hate it. 

I agree that the ZUs are the best speaker made. I’ve never heard them myself, I agree as someone who owns bass speakers and other full range drivers (mostly in boxes for for electric guitar or bass duty) that these things seem pricey for what they are, and the back and forth love/hate thing seems to hang around this brand more than most, but, clearly, these are the best speakers made.

Zu was a fad for a while. They have their die hard fans but the truth is that sticking bass guitar woofers in a box and calling it a speaker makes a lousy speaker.

Answer to original post: No. My opinion (with my ears, brain, etc.), of course.

This thread is a good micro summary of the history of postings on Zu speakers, IMO.  Some people clearly love them, and some clearly hate them.  Perhaps less sit in the middle, although there seem to be some owners or previous owners in that camp too.  Quite polarized.

The shows don't always seem to do Zu a bunch of favors.  I suspect blindjim nailed some of the reasons very well in his explanation as to why.  Settling and power factors seem to be completely true with my Zu experience in my own home.  From my personal experience with amp matching at home, and reading show reviews over the years for Zu, I might question some of the amp choices that Sean has chosen for previous shows (several years back for sure).  Peachtree stuff probably won't blow your mind at a show.  Nelson Pass' SIT-2 is a great solid state amp--I own it--but in my opinion it doesn't produce mind-blowing results with my Zus.

I'm going to get my 4th pair of Zus next month in Druid 6's.  I own 2 of their more entry models in Unions and Cubes, and have been running their Soul Supremes in my main system for about 3 years.  The first 2 sets were good--I still own them and have them in various systems around the house.  I love the Soul Supremes, as they are clearly in a different league.  I have not owned or heard Def 4s, but I suspect given the shared drivers, I can imagine how they can sound in the right sized room (my room is quite small at 11x16ish) paired with the right amps and pre-amp.

I post only to note that it's my opinion that the absolute "best" SET amps and properly matched pre-amps are likely needed to really get the highest end Zu's to deliver on what the "Zu sound and design" is truly capable of delivering.  If you pair the lower models (Unions, Cubes, etc.) or OLDER models of Druids or even Definitions (I suspect) with these highest-end amp/pre combos, you might get good to really good sound, but it won't be great or phenomenal by many highest-end standards (some older Zu owners will disagree with me I'm sure).

IMO, only their latest offerings (from my readings and experience) are likely to match what their biggest fans will claim as to how good they are or can be.  The Unions and Cubes, for example, are clearly in a lower-level than their newer, higher-end speakers.  Like WAY different, so when people hate the Zu sound, I look for what models and eras they heard, and with what supporting components, or in what poorly set up show.  They can ABSOLUTELY be made to sound mediocre or even bad, so I don't doubt a single poster on his/her experience having heard some Zus somewhere sound bad.  I have too, in my own home.

Similarly, pair their newer, higher end speakers with only decent amps and pre-amps, and the combos may not blow anyone away either.  Especially by the really high standards many of us have from experience with other systems.

As the OP suggested, I do find that a REALLY great 845 SET amp pairs very, very well with Zu's higher-end stuff (read ~$5K speakers and up).  You can read elsewhere that others who really feel the cross-overless nature of Zu's highest-end speakers are most ideally matched with very expensive SET amps, in both 845 and 300b.  

So how many of us have heard Zu's best stuff with $20K SET amps and a $15K pre-amp of like quality to really hear what their capable of--I suspect not that many, and that may also be some of the reasons for the polarization...the Zu range of speakers over the years can and will produce an insanely wide range of sound quality depending on a number of factors. 

And for those of us who have heard those absolutel best combos, you may still NOT like the sound due to all the personal reasons that are reflected in these forums as so naturally subjective in the first place.

I do believe that link provided above is for their new and improved Druid 6.

I have already had 2 different Zu speakers and all I can say is never again.

Kenny.

I don't know why there is always so much debate on speakers and electronics. Doesn't it stand to reason that in taking account of room acoustics, individuality in people's hearing with regard to even hearing all the frequency spectrum, and the wide range of electronics, electric cords, conditioners, wire connectors, etc. . . . not to mention the constant “improvements” that never quite get to the perfecting of sound reproduction . . . that there is a lot of spoof in advertising -- not to mention brainwashing with regard to all of this?

I grant you that there are improvements in equipment . . . but these breakthroughs, I feel, will ALWAYS be there, as it is the lifeblood of the industry. It is like medicine . . . always finding ways to mask symptoms and always coming up with medical breakthroughs -- but RARELY, if ever, a CURE.

Half the fun, I am convinced, is the man child comparing how much he paid for his equipment and then debating just how much better it is than his neighbor's setup . . . not to mention how everyone seems to have those “golden ears” that set them above everyone else in telling them what to buy, which is the newest BEST . . . that is, until it becomes last months old news. Hey, it is the proverbial carrot that is being dangled in front of a hungry man's face that keep the cash flow going and opens up a man's wallet to spend how many hundreds of thousands of dollars by the public -- knowing full well that this stuff is marked-up two-thirds over the value and the cost of making the product in the first place.

As I recall, we all just salivated just seeing the latest and greatest when going into the stereo stores . . . let alone everyone just mesmerized as the sales person told us what we are hearing -- and believed it.

It is a grand hobby -- always will be; however, doesn't commonsense dictate that somewhere along the line that “carrot” will be always hanging just slightly out of reach of music narvana?

I think I saw Zu speakers at an audio show only once. They kept me less than 30 seconds in the room. Don't remember the model or any details, just the brand.

Also, I remember reading this comment about some Zu speakers (yes, it was for a cheaper model):

**** Munich High-End 2016 ****
"Right: Zu loudspeaker from whizzer cone driver and compression driver fitted with waveguide. The speaker sounded plain awful. Close to worst sound on show." 
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/MUNICH-2016.htm

Nice ad, though. 

Best speaker ever made? You gotta be kidding... If anything, it's one of the worst, and for the money, definitely not worth it.

Bad bass, horrible blurry mids, crappy extension, and for all their high efficiency, not even that dynamic or lively even.

The damn things sell for $16900. There's like a million better products out there for HALF this money, let alone at this price.

I definitely don't get it.

Love the Zu guys.
Something very appealing about the "live" quality of their high sensitivity speakers. I have had Druid in and out of my setup several times. But they are currently sitting disconnected in the hallway. Because for me tonal balance is a priority. Check the response curve:
http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/zucable_druid/
They are very fun listening, but not an everyday solution according to my preferences.
PS. That curve is for an older version. I hope someone can post a link to measurements for a more current model. It probably looks a lot better. Of course measurements aren’t everything.