lol'n at this struggle thread. fellas you aren't going to solve the free speech question on an audio forum. go play a record. plot an upgrade. anything
Why should audiophile deniers be allowed on an audiophile forum?
Why should we be subjected to audiophile deniers, on a site dedicated to audio?
It’s antithetical to the hobby and adds nothing to the pursuit. I want to quote something from another thread.
@djones51 wrote "exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose"
What then, is the purpose of people with this agenda being on this site? To “expose bull products.” It’s fine for someone to post they tried a product and it didn’t work for them, but to dismiss entire product categories is not a discussion that belongs on an enthusiast forum.
Would a car enthusiast site stand for this type of post?
Try going on a Porsche forum, just for example, and posting that your Mustang is just as fast 0-60 and that others poster’s claims about their driving experience is “dubious.” See how long that will be tolerated
There are plenty of sites to poke fun at audiophile’s obsession with cables, power conditioners etc. Why does it belong here, especially when we can’t mute specific posters?
What’s next? Arguing that speakers that measure the same must sound the same and that we are all suckers for buying expensive speakers? I thought we got rid of trolling?
Isn’t it obvious with all the ASR related posts here lately we are being trolled?
A couple of months back I read a post here about someone that ordered a new cat8 cable from China. I tried it and posted back my fantastic results for others to benefit.
Personally that’s the kind of forum I’m interested in, not to come here to be challenged about what I hear and that since it can’t be measured so it must be “dubious.”
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Absolute hogwash. You're intentionally conflating the concept of "free speech" as written in the Constitution with what can be said on a privately owned site. You don't fool anyone (with an IQ above room temperature) with your victim signaling. All the best, |
Perhaps Audiogon has a chance at “free” speech unlike big tech?
Absolutely. Our predecessors fought many a long hard battle to overcome censorship for a certain freedom of expression and opinion. So why stand back and allow these precious rights to be taken away by those who would seek to rewrite history and to oppress, ostracise and silence all contradictory opinions? There are important questions facing us all now in this age of information. I would argue that intolerant fascism, from either end of the political spectrum, will always be an anathema to freedom. I think we all have a pretty good idea where such intolerance and smug self belief can eventually lead to, don't we? |
Have to go with audition_audio on this one. There are few Skinheads, nor Neo-Nazis. When one does not have a good argument, one may try to use an exception to prove a rule. It does not work that way. However, there is a good lesson to be learned. "Othering" and ignoring concerns, even of those you don't agree with, lends to radicalization. It is easy to label someone a racist, or Xenophobe or bigot, but just like raising concerns about "Skinheads" or other fringe elements, they may too have a concern that may not be at issue today, but could become one. I don't worry about Skinheads or Neonazis. The elements that drive them tend to be ignorance. However, I do worry about things that will "grow" within the framework of life today, i.e. what could happen from growing economic disparity, from demographics, etc. I will say one thing, censorship will always be bad, as it is and has always been a tool of oppression.
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And how many Skinheads and Neo-Nazis do you believe actually exist in our country and elsewhere? I am sure if you took some time you could find an even more radical and obscure group to make your point. I assume that what many of you want is to shut down all free and open discourse. To date I would say you have been very successful with the public schools and the universities. I am done with this as so many of you simply dont understand the real dangers of what you propose.
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Perhaps in order to understand just why censorship is bad we should take a look at its most ardent proponents, the extreme right and especially nowadays, the extreme left (some might argue the moderate left too).
Perhaps also a sense of perspective should prevail, no one is advocating mass murder, ethnic cleansing or racially based conspiracy theories. Look upon it how you will but you simply cannot put discussions about the efficacy of sample rates, cables, fuses and blind listening into the same category. In any, case I've never witnessed a fight breaking out a hi-fi show, although I did read that Quad's Peter Walker once got a little shirty with some over inquisitive imbecile. |
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By the way there is a difference between unlimited naive tolerance denounced by Popper correctly so , and critical and selective tolerance a la Marcuse...Between these two there is, GUIDING tolerance, behind it and in front of it education and communication, because tolerance is not enough alone, an education toward communication and understanding which refuse abdication in front of agression and refuse censorship is the ONLY way... Listen to Daryl Davis...He know even more than Popper and Marcuse...He is more a renaissance man in his spirit than a conditioned unfree propagandist from the left or right propaganda.... Like i said in my post above speaking of Mandeville, The occident has forgot his roots...Man like Davis remind us of this....
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@djones51 + 1 |
@audition__audio no, I don't mind. I tried to share the title of the email last night, but evidently it was a word that the mods deemed to be obscene, although the word doesn't particularly bother me. The content of the email called me that word, and I would be happy to print it, but it appears that the mods don't like the word. |
How do you think to exterminate them or eliminating them ? censorship? labor boot camp? Militia anti fascist? listen to this dude , he know what he is talking about... One of the great american nowadays... Good people on both side is BS you said?.... For you all is black and white with no understanding necessary, the only way to answer will be the same as the extremist: violence and censorship ? Take a lesson here:
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More nonsense from those who don’t have the slightest idea. Good people on both sides is BS. There are no good Skinheads or Neonazis. To tolerate such is suicide to society.
Karl Popper |
LOL! Apparently free speech exists on this site via private messages as I got some hate mail last night via Audiogon mail. |
You are right on the spot... Marcuse is an inferior version of Marx who is himself an inferior version of Bernard Mandeville, the real thinker BEFORE Adam Smith of capitalism-neo-liberalism historical seeds at the time of industrial revolution... But the machiavellian genius of Mandevillle come from the abandonment of the classical education model coming from the Renaissance (Pico of La Mirandole) based on the spiritual value at the root of western civilization for an alleged more "lucid" education system based on individualism egocentrism and greed and ambition which are supposed to be the "normal" POSITIVE working of society and economy at the end (the "hiden hand" regulating the market is an idea borrowed and presented in a more "morally" neutral way, it comes directly from "the fable of the bees" in Mandeville Faustian bargain and deeper observation of mankind ).. Mandeville anticipated Freud by 2 centuries, not only Marx... Adam Smith ideas comes directly in an attenuated and less deep expression from Bernard Mandeville influence on him; the true Genius and "our master of us all "said Hayek in a famous conference in front of 8 future nobel prizes in economy in the beginning of the last century speaking of Mandeville... The radical cut from the original spiritual Greek ideal of renaissance for the egoistic model of man is at the origin of these 3 successive perversions: nazism, marxism and Stalinism, and neo liberalism... The three ideologies pretend to educate the masses not to be independent free thinker like the Renaissant man but individual at the service of the social Hive (Mandeville) because it is INEVITABLE...Like in Marcuse discourse discriminative tolerance ONLY is inevitable...The general idea of tolerance being an illusion of an hypocrital elite which must be destroyed... The actual crisis of the world is a spiritual war between forces who want to enslave humanity and UPROOT it complety from his cultural and spiritual history, for a mad dystopia of social engineering (transhumanism being his last mortal avatar) ... And some other cultural forces who reacted violently to this Occidental madness...Occident has forgotten his roots....His wisdom became madness...And this madness has provoked another mad violent reaction... This world is now a sleepwalking violent theater for three great wars... No civilization can forget his roots and survive...And no civilization can live without roots...
Like said John Cowper Powys describing a technocratic hell through de Sade mouth: they are all working on terrible experiments in "white robe clothes" but for the "common good" and only for the common good now... This technocratic hell is the children of the Mandeville ’s Hive... Even Orwell and Huxley geniuses are anticipasted centuries before by Mandeville underestimated genius...Machiavel himself appear a children scout before Mandeville indeed and beside him ... The work of Mandeville is thin but his thougth deep and his influence on the future thinkers who will counted in social and economic thinking will be without equal and lasting from Smith to admirative Hayek and all his disciples... And completely new...The self apponted "elite" will understand him and will derive the appropriate conclusions till this day...
i cannot go into details futher here...
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Freedom of speech for sure, no one wants to be muted but does not mute when necessary. For the fidelity of discussion better use facts coming from true experience! General views, rejection due to incopetence of understanding, inexperience, kind of stubbornness, are not credited and better ignored. Making fun of someone who does not know what can be achieved with good cabling (example) is the same as mocking those who have invested some money on them. Funny but most disputes are about cables, fuses, plugs, tweaking in general and not about room acoustics, resonance.....(not catchy subjects or deep waters). But we have to accept also that we people do not have the same education, understanding, and mostly sensitivity in hearing. What i have learned all these years being involved with this hobby is to experiment, be patient, and keep ears and mind open and listen in full working condition, ears, brain, heart, stomach, skin. Life does exist before and after measurements or laws. |
To understand the philosophy, that’s taken over a certain segment of our society: one need look no further than Marcuse’s brief enchiridion, on how to marginalize others, 'Repressive Tolerance'. https://www.marcuse.org/herbert/publications/1960s/1965-repressive-tolerance-fulltext.html Orwellian/Machiavellian to the core and being followed to a tee!
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Everybody knows it is a private site with rule... Even the dumbest here... The question about free speech is the question relative to our attitude toward others... Listening others, for example people who disagree with many audiophiles subjective approach , or listening those impressions is practising civilized free speech ATTITUDE .. Similarly listening those who are skilled in objective measuremnentsand could teach us something .... Censoring or asking for censororing or attacking people with no politeness is an attack on free speech consensual attitude here even in a private regulated site... It is not so much the matter discussed here which attract the moderators action , i observed it, but most of the times agtressive action between us, especially insults, agressivity and degenative discussion branding IMPOLITE name, labelling opinion one against the other, political one being the worst... Then free speech is not only a constitution principle limited rightfully or not by the owner will or by the miderators here it is ESPECIALLY a consensual attitude and habit between us discussing...And this attitude had the same importance than the constitutional principle itself... It is the same difference and the same relation which exist between ethic and moral and laws and rules... Correct me if i am wrong... it is my opinion and feeling... 😁😊
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It seems most people don't understand Free Speech in the constitutional sense. It doesn't apply on this forum, this is a private group, you have to become a member in order to participate. It's no different than Augusta National not allowing women to be members at least up until a few years ago. Like them this place can discriminate till their hearts content. Most no more look into the reality of how the law works than how a fuse or cable works. Enjoy your ignorance. |
It is interesting that the threads that get the most participation are ones that deal with free speech. Either someone complains there is too much of it—“I shouldn’t have to read other people that mock me”—or complain that they have been censored by the site. The first group strikes me as a bit to fragile. No, being mocked, frequently by people who can be reasonably classified as idiots, isn’t fun. Ultimately the way to deal with them is to ignore them , like our mothers taught us. You ask a question about a fuse, 10 people answer, 8 are meanies and two are people with whom you wish to interact, ignore the eight. Free speech doesn’t mean that you are required to interact with every jerk out there. The second group gets more sympathy from me, but usually when they have been censored they have violated TOS . We may not agree with the TOS, but this is a private site so our “rights” here are not unlimited. |
For sure you are right about this... But this does not contradict my point and dont erase all the cultural, social,psychological pressure which impose this self traditional censorship unknown in nuclear family in north america and that was our initial point when we discussed the new self censoring problem emerging now in north america with the new censorship mania... It is not necessary to travel in china to know about post Mao politic on family and demographic... Anyway thanks to answer me politely... I am grateful for that... Good easter night...
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You really are out of touch. "One Child" has been the law until recently in China since 1980. A massive number of Chinese, from early adulthood and on, have barely any interaction with their families except during CNY and on the phone. They "obey" their parents, but their influence is near 0. Whole generations of adult Chinese are growing up with barely any influence from their parents / elders, far less than the average Westerner. You keep regurgitating what you read in books and articles, but have no lived experience in this matter. |
😁 Trying to correct me by adding historical specifications i will not contradict because they are for sure true but beside the main point i was wanting to make and which you forgot on your rage to be right against me, trying to correct me will not make me wrong on the essential point under discussion: asian society like mainland China resemble and transport his old self through Occidental globalization influence : this china is more self censoring than north america for political and social evident reason ... All what you added are historical specifications that contradict not my general description and that i will not contradict for sure... I dont contradict like you an evidence by trying to drown the cat of history with facts i cannot and will not contest because they are true but beside the point under discussion ... The main point was that there is tighter self censorship in traditional more clanic culture than modern nuclear explosed family... did you remind it? i know you dont like to be contradicted or even discussed but this was the initial point... And this is a fact... i am sorry if hurted your ego...but you like to correct some no?
But if your other historical remarks made sense for sure this sentence make no sense sorry
Whose chinese from where? And modern building dont erase old culture soul and education trasmitted by family contact... And saying that they know their history but it does not make any influence in their soul life is beyond preposterous...
You like to correct "deluded audiophile" but you dont like to be corrected or even just discussed ... I have welcome you in my first post to you yesterday , but you insulted me already two times right after that and truncated first and persist to misread one of my post after that in another thread with no apology at the end ... Fine manner indeed...
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I see your propensity for being wrong extends to other topics. How many years of your life have you spent in China or Taiwan? Taiwan is culturally "old China". Mainland China is but a shadow with most real Chinese culture lost through communism. Taiwan has spent more time as a modern nation than the mainland and you may incorrectly view that as Americanized, but that is a statement based on ignorance. Taiwan is no more "Americanized" than any other Asian nation, arguably less.
You really need to spend more time reading about Chinese history before writing about it on the internet. There simply is not truth in this statement. Some dynasties emphasized trade (while building great armies), others conquered. The only difference is China has always been at some level isolationist. The Chinese people are not so much self policed, certainly not throughout history, as policed, ruled under tight control, likely because they are strong minded and not individualistic.
Most modern Chinese, in their modern business building have less attachment or even feeling for their past culture than Western people do. They know of their history, but it carries little influence. Perhaps you, in your modern Western accommodation should quote less what they have read in books to someone who has spent years engaged in a culture and experienced. |
You are right for sure and i only hope you will not hate me for my bad habit... Happy easter night
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Obviously you confused americanized democratic Taiwan, with old continental imperial China... And it is not necessary to travel in a Hilton hotel in british Hong Kong or Taiwan to know that the self censorship is not only linked to the political power traditionally present which weight over their head for millenias but ALSO to the power of the family who is a powerful hierarchised extensive clanic affair with very precise rules of interaction. .. And reading Confucius ethic is better than eating burger in Hilton hotel with some modernized chinese engineer to learn culture and inconscious collective archetypes ruling them ...Sorry... 😁😊 I spoke here about the general culture not about some modern chinese individuals you meet in their modern business buildings ...they are like us they want freedom...but their culture, history and backgrounds differ completely... Self censorship is more heavy in SOME traditionalist society, it is an anthropological fact...The free individual with his free speech right is an invention of modern European times... Even if there has been always through history some revendication of freedom... The history of Spartacus in the Roman times is interesting for example... Revendication by chineese people now dont erase completely their traditional "etiquette" and social submission generally coming from a long programmed history ...With one billion and more people and more than 3 millenias of history, and high culture, china has many habits and customs that implicate more self censorship than what are accustomed north Americans in particular ... In a word chinese has invented everything technological way before europeans most of the times till the 17 th century, but a chinese Freud for example could not exist why? Answer this and you will understand what i spoke about...
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China was a self censoring society for millenias... They invented diplomacy....because they prefered to integrate in their midst invaders and make commercial alliance than brutal imperialism like Romans did... Cina was many kingdom in an already large territory seeking unity, tome was a village seeking expansion...
Us we are younger, and dont wanted this self censorship, which is installed now in North America... It begin in plain sight with our imitation of china politic and social method in the pandemy ... Some forces are unelected over andbehind our "apparent " democracies now... With self censorship, free speech is condemned...The same self censorship destroyed the Soviet Empire he was already in ruins when Reagan give it a push...... We are contaminated now by forces of power and control behind the door of elected poeople, this was so decades ago but now it is visible in plain sight...
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@sns that is the the justification that the Communisty party in China uses. No really, they do. That said, this place is better than daytime TV. Drama, intrigue, impersonation, factions, people out to get each other .... it is high art even if the stereos are not. |
Censoring certain classes of people certainly troublesome and something totalitarian societies do. Still, I don't have a problem with censoring certain individuals who continually and constantly intentionally provoke anger which may lead to violence. Yes, its difficult to prove intent, and cause and effect to any single post or statement that resulted in violence, but we do see an upsurge in violence attributed to social media.
The other thing that seems rather ironic in all the worries about upholding free speech at any cost is all the self censoring that goes on today. Partisan divisions seem wider and deeper than ever. Class censorship is what I'm worried about, partisan intolerance may bring this to pass, I see it taking hold already. |
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On online audio forum. It may be an ultimately trivial thing, but the kind of thinking that becomes accepted in such corners, any corner of the world, the kind of thinking where it’s accepted to simply silence people for bad thoughts, is a bad omen for the future. I could provide a litany of thoughts that are not only ignorant, stupid and flat-out wrong, but also dangerous and harmful. It would please me to no end if such thinking magically disappeared forever. Of course, no matter how much I wish for bad ideas to go away, they will not. They’ve been around since the beginning of man and will persist until the end of time. It’s simply a far worse play in the long-term to start censoring people than to use your voice to bring logic and truth into the fray. |
I am not appointed by someone to judge anyone here... Mind your business...I spoke to everyone here even to you...Spare me your implicit "judgement"... There is no "point" here save your inquisition in my own affair... Thanks
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