Has anyone checked out the many rave reviews for Audioquest Hurricane power cords? Hel-loo! Maybe there’s something to this directionality stuff, highly polished conductor stuff and whatever else Audioquest has learned in the past thirty years. I know what you’re thinking, they’re just saying that because it sounds cool.
Why Power Cables Affect Sound
I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
845 responses Add your response
I’m just generally curious what is going on scientifically speaking. Furthermore, once we understand the phenomena then we can design and tweak to produce the results we want. For example, maybe the gauge of the copper fully explains the effect. If that’s the case then we can tweak that one variable and ignore the other ones that could use up our time and money. Its easiest to measure the effect the cord has on equipment with which its used. I’ve seen a power cord make a difference of nearly 30% of output power out of a power amplifier. I could also see that that was caused by a voltage drop across the power cord. This stuff isn’t woo voodoo nor is it any rocket science, its just Ohm’s Law. You can measure differences in output power, output impedance and distortion on many power amps just by changing the power cord- and many of these differences are simply caused by voltage drop. IMO tube amps are more susceptible as they have a filament circuit that is unregulated, and the heat of the cathode makes a difference as to the transconductance of the tube. But a class A transistor amp is likely pretty susceptible too. There is more to it than voltage drop though. It also has to do with bandwidth of the power cord as it has to be able to provide current at high frequencies because rectifiers in power supplies often commutate (switch on and off) for very short periods of time, and if the current gets limited during that current pulse the power supply can’t charge completely. A noisy, improperly charged power supply can have an effect on how a circuit performs. So it should be no surprise that power cords can have an audible effect. The usual saw is why doesn’t the wiring in the house make a difference and the answer is that it does. Romex in general though is pretty high performance compared to flexible cable but its illegal to make power cords out of it. |
On another note, I recently bought some adapters and put a high quality power cable upstream of the wall wart power supply that serves my DAC. Wow! The improvement in sound was very impressive. Much more slam and dynamics. I recommend anyone to try this if they are plugging their wall wart start into the outlet. |
Single strand? I haven’t. My power cables use solid core but with multiple runs of different gauges. I’ve heard people say that large gauge power cable are more bass heavy and small gauge more treble heavy and that the best results come from a power cable that uses multiple gauges. What can you tell us about 12 gauge solid core power cables? Do you get good results? |
@phomchick
- Actually I doubt most cable companies could afford the R&D equipment to define their products improvements. I suspect most of these guys are small shops. |
mrdecibel Through our phone’s speakers, I hear the acoustic differences of his voice from each one of his surroundings. That’s nothing. When I do the TT over the phone I can hear the change in the customer’s system, when he has it on and playing music. The change is fast as the speed of light. Of course, the TT works even without the system being on. The customer has the option of listening to the phone whilst I’m doing the TT. Some prefer not to. 😬 The TT works even when the customer is traveling. 😳 |
I have a scenario for you. Talking with my friend via cell phones, he is driving home from work. 1st, using his vehicle's bluetooth system. He gets home, no longer Bluetooth, he is now on speaker phone, walking from his vehicle to his house. Now he is in his house, scrounging around his kitchen. Then, he walks into his bathroom to tinkle. Through our phone's speakers, I hear the acoustic differences of his voice from each one of his surroundings. He questions me every time, " where am I now ? ". I hear it every time. I am familiar with his voice, and familiar with every scenario of his surroundings. I can say to any of you, this is not my imagination. Many of us have this ability, as I am not alone. No different than hearing differences in power, speaker and interconnect cables. When it comes to listening, and hearing, either you can, or you can't. Happy New Year to all, and Enjoy ! MrD. |
I actually don’t think there’s much mystery left with power cords. I mean, come on! You got your gauge, your metal of choice, silver or copper, stranded or solid core, geometry of choice, shielded or unshielded, highly polished conductors, advanced connectors, continuous cast copper, power cords that are controlled for directionality, cryogenically treated power cords. There are a heck of a lot more variables than gauge to play games with. There’s even the color of the jacket, if you want to get serious about it. |
So why are you hung up on why power cords make a difference? I’m just generally curious what is going on scientifically speaking. Furthermore, once we understand the phenomena then we can design and tweak to produce the results we want. For example, maybe the gauge of the copper fully explains the effect. If that’s the case then we can tweak that one variable and ignore the other ones that could use up our time and money. Please explain the differences you hear. There are many differences that I hear. The treble went from bright and edgy to natural and smooth. This was most apparent at high volume levels. Whereas before the power cable, the treble at loud volumes would quickly cause listening fatigue, after the power cable, treble at high volume was much more pallatable and realistic sounding. The music overall became fuller and more musical. The bass seems to support the music better and be more coherent. It’s challening to accurately put these things into words. |
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OP You installed the upgraded power cable on your CD player and you heard an improvement in SQ. You did not say you "I think I heard" or "its my opinion that it sounded better". It sounded better. Period. Yeah, it wasn’t subtle at all and I wasn’t expecting it either. I think sometimes as audiophiles we can get all excited over a new component and sometimes hear things that aren’t there because we expect there to be an improvement. This was not one of those times. Don’t let anyone push you off the fact that you can hear a change in your system. Don’t worry about that, I’m too far down the rabbit hole. Save yourself! After hearing the change in sound when I swapped from stranded core to solid core speaker cables, my curiosity was peaked. After that was experiencing differences in RCA cables. Then power cords. I remember when I first heard these differences, I had mixed emotions. I was happy to learn that you can tweak sound with cables but saddened because I knew if I wanted to get the most out of my system I would have to spend a lot of time (and some money) to figure out what worked best in my system. In hindsight it has been a fun, rewarding pursuit. I don’t think power cables should be as mysterious as they are. There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but I have yet to see a published scientific study covering any of these ideas in depth. I agree with nonoise that it’s a possibility we just don’t yet know how or what to measure to understand certain complex phenomena in the world of audio reproduction. |
Actually, if one had a spectrum analyzer then one could see the improvement since it is easy to measure the power output with and without the new cord for a given piece of music. Once you have it hooked up, there is a LOT you can measure. Granted, not every audiophile has an expensive chuck of test equipment lying aroundBut cable manufacturers could afford this equipment, and they could use the results (perhaps a reduction in the noise floor) in their marketing materials. But they don't. Why do you suppose that is the case? |
Actually, if one had a spectrum analyzer then one could see the improvement since it is easy to measure the power output with and without the new cord for a given piece of music. Once you have it hooked up, there is a LOT you can measure. Granted, not every audiophile has an expensive chuck of test equipment lying around. I would be most audio companies don't spring for the equipment, though. Too pricey and it is mostly useful for R&D rather than production. |
phomchick Those that claim they can hear a difference in power cables provide no more meat than the skeptics. If there is a difference in sound, there must be a difference in the signal going to the speakers. I have never seen any proof of this. >>>>Well, just a comment, really. If someone did show that there was in fact a measured difference in the signal going to the speakers due to changing power cords it would not be proof. It would be evidence. |
I’m sure there is but do you honestly think that we’re at the height of our ability to measure it or that there will be no more advances in our ability to measure? Add to that that there’s no doubt that there are differences in say, sound staging ability as we’ve all heard the differences, so what accounts for that and how is it measured? All the best, Nonoise |
Just an observation. Interesting conversation. I started reading it from the beginning but then the same ole pattern was obvious. There are those who have spent the money, did some serious listening, and have drawn some conclusions on if this or that makes a difference in SQ in ones system. Usually these are people who can point to something specific when making such a claim, or explain their observation e.g. better highs, or better bass, or better imaging, etc.. On the other hand there are those who criticize, but only have that criticism with no meat Those that claim they can hear a difference in power cables provide no more meat than the skeptics. If there is a difference in sound, there must be a difference in the signal going to the speakers. I have never seen any proof of this. |
Just an observation. Interesting conversation. I started reading it from the beginning but then the same ole pattern was obvious. There are those who have spent the money, did some serious listening, and have drawn some conclusions on if this or that makes a difference in SQ in ones system. Usually these are people who can point to something specific when making such a claim, or explain their observation e.g. better highs, or better bass, or better imaging, etc.. On the other hand there are those who criticize, but only have that criticism with no meat, nothing conclusive to back the claim that someone saying power cables, ICs or whatever the topic is does NOT make a difference. Why is the burden of proof aways on the difference maker. OP You installed the upgraded power cable on your CD player and you heard an improvement in SQ. You did not say you "I think I heard" or "its my opinion that it sounded better". It sounded better. Period. Don't let anyone push you off the fact that you can hear a change in your system. Sometimes we can't explain exactly why something like a new cable, etc makes a difference for the better. None of us are audio equipment designers (well maybe some of you are). We still can't explain how the pyramids were made either but there they stand. Im not saying to believe everything you hear about an audio solution, but if something works it works. So OP good for you. You bought a new CD player, put a upgraded cable on it and now it sounds the way you like it to. You will never get a full answer as to why, but nothing wrong with asking the question. |
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I sold by far the most Audioquest Storm powercables in my country this year. And my clients even call them a ’bargain’. In the beginning of 2019 Audioquest Europe will visit me at home. We will show them how much more quality and result we can get out of their cables then they can reach. They will bring in their Niagara powerconditioners (I asked them to) and then they can give a demo how they use their cables. After this the master will outperform them by Tru-Fi. I will proof how much more quality and result we can create with their powercabels than they can create by the way they use them. Due to Tru-Fi I can reach and use the full potential of their cables. And I will proof on sound and facts how much more we can get out of these cables than they can reach. When you use powercables by trial and error you only can reach a limited level in result. That is why I wanted to invite them. Tru-Fi gives us access to the full DNA of their cables. Audioquest Europe is impressed why we sell so much more of these powercables compared to all other shops. So we will demonstrate them the reason why. We have proven to our clients that we can reach a step in result and quality with these powercables they could not get by spending the same money on another audio product. We have done a lot of research in electricity in the last few years. We also create separate electricity groups for audio for our clients. But we also did a lot of research regarding smog, highfrequent noise and magnetism. And also in these parts we made big steps. I started in 2002 to do a lot of research in powercables. And this made me use them a lot since this time. The new Audioquest Storm powercables are stunning in our Tru-Fi world. Because we can use all the properties they own. This makes them so much more influential than when you would use them in a limited trail and error world. |
The relatively simple reason behind a well-constructed power cord making a difference is this: more current delivered (quality conductors) + a cleaner signal (proper shielding) = better sound. The use of multiple gauges, different wire types (stranded, solid core, etc.), and "exotic" materials, are just different approaches to delivering on the same goal - maximum current transfer with minimum interference/noise (and, of course, a healthy dose of marketing thrown in for good measure). As far as pricing for cables, or any other component for that matter, the price will reflect whatever the market will bear. That itself is based on many factors, including brand recognition/reputation, and what the current "equivalent" product sells for.To put it another way, the price reflects whatever someone is willing to pay. |
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Nobody is trying to convince anybody , a question was asked and yet people answering seem to not be able to read , just troll. It's about POWER CORDS and it is a legitimate question that I don't think that can be answered by anything other than listening. "Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter. If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please. " |
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bigkidz, "...if you can use a soldering device, most of the time you wouldn’t look for a cable or cord first to tune in your system." It may not be directly related to why people sometimes obsess with cables but many are not that good with actual manual work inside of some piece. In fact, to them (us) it is kind of intimidating to see what is inside. I opened one component yesterday to change a hard drive. No soldering, just four easy screws. Still, I was very happy that most of the parts were relatively far from that hard drive. I did, just for the heck of it, change the direction of one of the fuses, though. That is as far as I could go with fiddling inside. You are, obviously, way more advanced than me and, I suspect, than many here who talk about these things. I doubt that is the main reason for cable industry blooming, but may have a little bit to do with it. |
I can’t believe that insulting those who have heard differences between power cords orIt’s become a favorite pastime for some once they realized they couldn’t convince us otherwise. Repeatedly. It’s no longer about the cables. All the best, Nonoise |
I can't believe that insulting those who have heard differences between power cords or by saying that it's our imagination because we spent money therefore it must be better makes for intelligent conversation . "If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please. " from mkgus's original post ! Happy Holidays |
Thanks people! My question is why are the cables cost more than some components. I am not a newbie just was a question for pondering. I actually build my own components (complete line will be out in 2019). And that is the crux of the matter for me. The cost/benefit ratio is just not there unless you DIY. For the money, you would be better off buying multiple low-end Furman power conditioners and isolating your equipment into groups. Best, E |
prof say's: "Then there are those of us who have "heard" obvious differences, but through more careful testing, realized it was our imagination.Of course, we are the fallible ones; the infallible don't even have to test themselves ;-)" And... "The problem is that the technical claims tend to be marketed to audiophiles who typically don't have the technical know-how to vet the claims. They get that cool sounding technical story and think "wow, that sounds convincing, sure looks like they know what they are talking about!" Then of course they "hear" the effects." In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan to Jimmy Carter in 1980 during one of the presidential debates: "There he goes again" Merry Christmas ;-) |
Thanks people! My question is why are the cables cost more than some components. I am not a newbie just was a question for pondering. I actually build my own components (complete line will be out in 2019). I also understand that a manufacturer can offer a product at what they think the market will pay for. I feel that a better/different component will make a bigger change that a cable can. IMO I hear what cables and cords do in a system. How much of a percentage change is another story compared to swapping out a resistor or capacitor in a component. I also see that many of us change gear and I wonder if the cable or cord used on a component works just as well as the next component someone changes. For me, I can solder in a cap or resistor in any component and see what it does for little cost. I guess most components don't really use the best parts either so what the hell am I saying to myself here? I have stated this in many threads that if you can use a soldering device, most of the time you wouldn't look for a cable or cord first to tune in your system. It isn't really that hard to make component parts changes. It is actually very simple. Almost as easy aw changing a tube. Large power supply caps, output resistors, are easy swaps. Anyway, Happy Listening. |
"But I left you with a tribe of headhunters in Borneo...….How did you ever end up back in the USA? (and not just as a tiny shrunken head?)"Audiogon is a source of information about everything. Debates about cables and fuses may not be that useful, but other information trickles through. I just learned about Borneo. I only knew about Jivaros. How did they come up with the same shrinking custom being so far apart? |
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@bigkidz Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer. Not true at all. Outside of certain audiophile site bubbles, plenty of audiophiles, audio enthusiasts etc don't hear any difference between power cables. Then there are those of us who have "heard" obvious differences, but through more careful testing, realized it was our imagination.Of course, we are the fallible ones; the infallible don't even have to test themselves ;-)
The problem is that the technical claims tend to be marketed to audiophiles who typically don't have the technical know-how to vet the claims. They get that cool sounding technical story and think "wow, that sounds convincing, sure looks like they know what they are talking about!" Then of course they "hear" the effects. I certainly include myself among those not technically competent to vet the claims of these high end cable sellers. But that's why I try to look at the opinions of those who know more than I. Instead of just being impressed by the marketing spiel of a cable company, I've done my best to look at other opinions. In a nutshell, I've seen the technical claims made by Shunyata shredded to pieces numerous times by people with actual knowledge in the field of electronics. (And who aren't trying to sell cables - who can look at the claims and say "they are pulling the wool over the eyes of anyone who doesn't know better). It seems many audiophiles mostly look to have their biases and subjective experience confirmed, so if the spiel sounds compelling, and they believe they heard a difference....case closed. And the Cable Sellers sell cables for thousands of dollars and live happily ever after ;-) |
This is what Audioquest says of power cords, Amplifiers present a real challenge for any AC power source, as the transient current requirements (though short in duration) can be many times that of the average (RMS) current consumption. Power amplifiers are also unique from all other components in that the current draw is dynamic, not constant, and it changes with volume and audio signal content. Though many AC power cords may feature low DC resistance to allow for some of this requirement, the characteristic impedance of the AC cable is equally responsible for assuring uncompromised performance. Many premium AC cords constrict or compress the audio transient as their characteristic impedance restricts the transient current.PURITY CONDUCTORS - SOLID PERFECT-SURFACE COPPER+ (PSC+)Solid Perfect-Surface Copper+ (PSC+) conductors prevent strand interaction, a major source of ear fatiguing transient intermodulation distortion. The astonishingly smooth and pure Perfect-Surface Copper+ eliminates harshness and greatly increases clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other premium coppers. The superior purity of PSC+ further minimizes distortion caused by grain boundaries, which exist within any metal conductor. The astonishingly smooth and pure Perfect-Surface Copper further eliminates harshness and greatly increases clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other premium coppers.GROUND NOISE-DISSIPATION TECHNOLOGYAC Ground wires provide protection from current-wiring faults, but they also act as antennas. Thus, they are subject to induced radio frequency (RF) noise. This RF noise bypasses component power supplies and is typically coupled directly into a system’s most sensitive audio-video circuits. AudioQuest’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation greatly reduces this distortion, yielding unprecedented levels of noise dissipation across the widest bandwidth (range) of radio frequencies possible. Our unique circuit-topology utilizes a common-mode phase-cancelling array, in concert with proprietary dielectric materials which provide additional differential linear filtering. (US Patent # 9,373,439) UNCOMPRESSED HIGH-CURRENT TRANSFER - HURRICANE With current capacity of 20 amps RMS @ 125VAC 50/60Hz (16 amps RMS @ 220-240VA 50/60Hz), Hurricane/High-Current can withstand current transient peaks many times its continuous (average) RMS rating. This makes Hurricane/High-Current ideally suited for a wide assortment of AC power conditioners, power regenerators, AC isolation transformers, and AC battery back-up devices, as well as any power amplifier, powered subwoofer, powered loudspeaker, powered receiver, or integrated amplifier. DIELECTRIC-BIAS SYSTEM WITH RADIO FREQUENCY TRAP All insulation between two or more conductors is also a dielectric whose properties will affect the integrity of the signal. When the dielectric is unbiased, dielectric-involvement (absorption and non-linear release of energy) causes different amounts of time delay (phase shift) for different frequencies and energy levels, which is a real problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio. The inclusion of an RF Trap (developed for AudioQuest’s Niagara Series of power products), ensures that radio frequency noise will not be induced into the signal conductors from the DBS field elements. (DBS, US Pat #s 7,126,055 & 7,872,195 B1) DIRECTIONALITY All drawn metal strands or conductors have a non-symmetrical, and therefore directional, grain structure. AudioQuest controls the resulting RF impedance variation so that noise is drained away from where it will cause distortion. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. When applicable, arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For most models of AQ cable, the arrows not only indicate the direction that optimizes metal-directionality as part of Noise-Dissipation, but also indicates non-symmetrical attachment of shield and GND in order to optimize full-system performance.” |