100% disagree. Manufacturers aren’t caught between anything. Give me a break! They are blissfully ignorant of aftermarket power cords. Besides, even if they were aware of them, which they’re not, they could buy Analysis Plus Power Oval power cords, for example, at wholesale for 50 bucks and be miles ahead of whatever cheap crap they currently use. Same goes for fuses. It’s not about cost, it’s about knowing what in the wide world of sports is going on.
Why Power Cables Affect Sound
I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
I actually find the argument that the pet dog perked its ears up and cocked its head a more credible argument than the ones involving the wife hearing the difference from the kitchen or yoga studio. In any case, it’s well known audiophiles can’t hear very well so they obviously need to come up with something. |
Obviously, the simplest solution is to keep power cords away from cables. Problem solved! Of course, the real question is, is shielding on power cords per se bad for the sound, all things being equal? Apparently, shielding can affect the Sound when used for speaker cables and interconnects. Why not for power cords? |
jetter852 posts01-20-2019 1:23pmGeoffkait (resident directionality guru), would you think that a manufacturer supplied power cable where the cable is made with the correct directionality would sound better or worse than a mega priced aftermarket PC made with the cable having the incorrect directionality but supposedly better construction/materials? I have no idea. Too many variables. 😬 |
Calm down, people. Nobody measures anything. At least not power cords. Not much of anything else, either, I dare say. Certainly, not cables, not interconnects, not room treatments, not isolation devices, not sprays, enhancers, or any other tweaks. Give me a break! It doesn’t matter what to measure, it doesn’t matter what the measurements might be. This is all so hypothetical and irrelevant. |
mzkmxcv364 posts01-15-2019 4:20pm@geoffkait They scored better than the musicians though... Any song offered in DSD likely has better mastering, so that’s a factor. I also believe that DXD (format used to make DSD) is just a high-rez PCM anyway, and then it’s converted to DSD on export. >>>>I reckon I’ll file that one under WHATEVER. |
mzkmxcv @geoffkait Some were sound engineers, so I hope they can, for their sake. >>>>Lol. They’re even worse than musicians. Give me a break! |
mzkmxcv @geoffkait Bias is always present for everyone regarding evaluating speakers/DACs/etc., it’s just unavoidable. People claim benefits in going 24/192 over 16/44.1, and the only reason is because you think it’s better, the simple factual truth is 44.1kHz is enough unless your DACs filter is garbage, and 16Bit is enough as it’s almost always a lower noise floor than what you can hear. Same reason DSD has no benefits, and MQA is worse than CD (it’s half lossy by definition). >>>>Experienced listeners are not swayed by these silly psychological effects, whether they be placebo effect, reverse placebo effect, expectation bias, or just psyching yourself out. They may be great in the pharmacutical industry but have little use for advanced audiophiles. Maybe if you’re trying to convince a gullible newbie.... Speaking of DSD, I have some DSD CDs, they sound spectacular. Maybe I’m the victim of the placebo vortex. OMG! 😮 |
Jitter Geoff, thank you for establishing that the magnetism is not part of the functioning mechanism of the mat, we were all wondering about that. Just so we do not need to go back and reread 15 pages to find it, would you please refresh our memories on what is the part of the mat that creates its sonic benefits? >>>>>The non magnetic part. I’m a little surprised you didn’t think of that. Jitter Also, which part of the mat reduces electrical usage when placed on an electrical appliance and that also by placing it on a fuse box can improve the functioning of all electrical apparatus including television sets? I think I read it a while ago but it must have slipped from memory. >>>>>I don’t know. I was kind of hoping you could tell me. |
People! We already established that magnetism is strictly for attaching the mat to a ferrous metal object. The principle involved has absolutely nothing to do with magnetism 🧲. That’s why the newer smaller cards are not (rpt not) magnetic. In fact we also know magnetism per se is generally bad for sound. That’s why we see preferences for non-magnetic chassis, non-magnetic screws, transformers wrapped with mu metal, etc. He-loo! Try to keep up, people! We need scamps like Elizabeth and Jitter to keep everyone straight. 😛 |
mzkmxcv Stereophile recorded one sighted listening test at an audio show comparing speaker cables, and the group that preceded expensove cables actually chose the generic cables. The test itself was highly flawed though: sighted, not individual (most not in the sweet spot), not the same gauge wires, etc. >>>>Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. All tests are flawed. Especially when results are negative. There are simply too many things that can go wrong, too many pitfalls, to put any confidence in them. Besides, people have ulterior motives a lot of times for performing tests. You know what I’m talking about. Or even for demanding tests be done. Give me a break! Even blind tests can’t save the sorry donkey. 😢 |
elizabeth6,206 posts01-13-2019 1:44pmKudos to Enid Lumley who ’discovered’ lifting cables made an improvement. >>>>>Actually her cable tunnels not only isolated cables from the deleterious effects of the floor or carpet in terms of vibration but the wood tunnels that supported the cables with rubber bands or string were treated to reduce static electrical charge effects. When I was at CES with Pierre of Mapleshade we supported all cabling from the ceiling using eye hooks and fishing line. That was 1997. When she brought that discovery to the World via The Absolute Sound.. she was run out of town on a rail, figuratively Sad.. I >>>>>>You have to be tough, tough, tough. It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken 🐔 |
An observation: anyone having difficulty wrapping his head around power cords is really not going to like the subject of audiophile fuses. Now, coincidentally fuses go into AC circuits just like power cords do, and are widely reported to affect the sound, just like power cords, and share a lot of the same characteristics/variables with power cords like directionality, purity of metals, measurements don’t corroborate listening results, and RF rejection. And many of the arguments are the same, must be a crappy power supply, the power from the wall is clean, AC travels in both directions, if they’re so great why don’t manufacturers routinely put them in their amps, yada yada yada.... |
The *velocity* of all the audio frequencies are changed equally when the temperature changes in the room. Be that as it may who would listen in a room that’s 60 degrees or 80 degrees, anyway? Answer at 11. Even if the temperature was 60 or 80 degrees the sound would be about the same as at 70. Mystery solved. |
Perfectly valid question re highly polished conductors. Here’s what Audioquest says, this paragraph refers to their Dragon High Current Power Cord. HIGH PURITY CONDUCTORS - PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS)Perfect-Surface Technology applied to extreme-purity silver provides unprecedented clarity and dynamic contrast. Perfect-Surface Silver (PSS) is AudioQuest’s highest-quality metal. Solid conductors prevent strand interaction, a major source of cable distortion. Extremely high-purity Perfect-Surface Silver minimizes distortion caused by the grain boundaries that exist within any metal conductor, nearly eliminating harshness and greatly increasing clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other coppers. Lizzie, you said you thought they were polished in a non oxygen atmosphere. Do you mean like on Pluto? |
Has anyone checked out the many rave reviews for Audioquest Hurricane power cords? Hel-loo! Maybe there’s something to this directionality stuff, highly polished conductor stuff and whatever else Audioquest has learned in the past thirty years. I know what you’re thinking, they’re just saying that because it sounds cool. |
mrdecibel Through our phone’s speakers, I hear the acoustic differences of his voice from each one of his surroundings. That’s nothing. When I do the TT over the phone I can hear the change in the customer’s system, when he has it on and playing music. The change is fast as the speed of light. Of course, the TT works even without the system being on. The customer has the option of listening to the phone whilst I’m doing the TT. Some prefer not to. 😬 The TT works even when the customer is traveling. 😳 |
I actually don’t think there’s much mystery left with power cords. I mean, come on! You got your gauge, your metal of choice, silver or copper, stranded or solid core, geometry of choice, shielded or unshielded, highly polished conductors, advanced connectors, continuous cast copper, power cords that are controlled for directionality, cryogenically treated power cords. There are a heck of a lot more variables than gauge to play games with. There’s even the color of the jacket, if you want to get serious about it. |
phomchick Those that claim they can hear a difference in power cables provide no more meat than the skeptics. If there is a difference in sound, there must be a difference in the signal going to the speakers. I have never seen any proof of this. >>>>Well, just a comment, really. If someone did show that there was in fact a measured difference in the signal going to the speakers due to changing power cords it would not be proof. It would be evidence. |
This is what Audioquest says of power cords, Amplifiers present a real challenge for any AC power source, as the transient current requirements (though short in duration) can be many times that of the average (RMS) current consumption. Power amplifiers are also unique from all other components in that the current draw is dynamic, not constant, and it changes with volume and audio signal content. Though many AC power cords may feature low DC resistance to allow for some of this requirement, the characteristic impedance of the AC cable is equally responsible for assuring uncompromised performance. Many premium AC cords constrict or compress the audio transient as their characteristic impedance restricts the transient current.PURITY CONDUCTORS - SOLID PERFECT-SURFACE COPPER+ (PSC+)Solid Perfect-Surface Copper+ (PSC+) conductors prevent strand interaction, a major source of ear fatiguing transient intermodulation distortion. The astonishingly smooth and pure Perfect-Surface Copper+ eliminates harshness and greatly increases clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other premium coppers. The superior purity of PSC+ further minimizes distortion caused by grain boundaries, which exist within any metal conductor. The astonishingly smooth and pure Perfect-Surface Copper further eliminates harshness and greatly increases clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other premium coppers.GROUND NOISE-DISSIPATION TECHNOLOGYAC Ground wires provide protection from current-wiring faults, but they also act as antennas. Thus, they are subject to induced radio frequency (RF) noise. This RF noise bypasses component power supplies and is typically coupled directly into a system’s most sensitive audio-video circuits. AudioQuest’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation greatly reduces this distortion, yielding unprecedented levels of noise dissipation across the widest bandwidth (range) of radio frequencies possible. Our unique circuit-topology utilizes a common-mode phase-cancelling array, in concert with proprietary dielectric materials which provide additional differential linear filtering. (US Patent # 9,373,439) UNCOMPRESSED HIGH-CURRENT TRANSFER - HURRICANE With current capacity of 20 amps RMS @ 125VAC 50/60Hz (16 amps RMS @ 220-240VA 50/60Hz), Hurricane/High-Current can withstand current transient peaks many times its continuous (average) RMS rating. This makes Hurricane/High-Current ideally suited for a wide assortment of AC power conditioners, power regenerators, AC isolation transformers, and AC battery back-up devices, as well as any power amplifier, powered subwoofer, powered loudspeaker, powered receiver, or integrated amplifier. DIELECTRIC-BIAS SYSTEM WITH RADIO FREQUENCY TRAP All insulation between two or more conductors is also a dielectric whose properties will affect the integrity of the signal. When the dielectric is unbiased, dielectric-involvement (absorption and non-linear release of energy) causes different amounts of time delay (phase shift) for different frequencies and energy levels, which is a real problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio. The inclusion of an RF Trap (developed for AudioQuest’s Niagara Series of power products), ensures that radio frequency noise will not be induced into the signal conductors from the DBS field elements. (DBS, US Pat #s 7,126,055 & 7,872,195 B1) DIRECTIONALITY All drawn metal strands or conductors have a non-symmetrical, and therefore directional, grain structure. AudioQuest controls the resulting RF impedance variation so that noise is drained away from where it will cause distortion. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. When applicable, arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For most models of AQ cable, the arrows not only indicate the direction that optimizes metal-directionality as part of Noise-Dissipation, but also indicates non-symmetrical attachment of shield and GND in order to optimize full-system performance.” |
edstrelow21 posts12-21-2018 3:00amThere is a lot of confusion here between theories and evidence. >>>There certainly is. But the confusion is not really between theories and evidence, it’s between proof and evidence. There is also confusion regarding test results, whether they represent proof or evidence, between mathematical proof and scientific proof, and even confusion regarding what constitutes empirical evidence. There is also confusion regarding why a negative test result does not (rpt not) overturn a theory, which is often claimed for controversial audio devices. edstrelow Merely having a plausible explanation for some phenomenon does not mean it is a correct explanation of that phenomenon, e.g. a suggestion that good cables have less susceptibility to electrical fields around them. Such an explanation requires a measurement to show such reduced susceptibility of that specific cable. >>>>>Actually measurement is not proof, it is only evidence of a theory. And lack of measurements does not disprove the theory. Listening tests are evidence, just like measurements, but not proof. Measurements can be deceiving, for example amplifiers with very low THD Total Harmonic Distortion can sound subjectively worse than amplifiers with much higher (orders of magnitude) THD. Another example: silver measures somewhat better conductivity than copper but can often sound worse subjectively than copper in audio applications. edstrelow Then you need some proof that this interference or reduced interference is what people are actually responding to as an improvement in sound quality, possibly by adding and subtracting such interference to audio signals and seeing what people report. >>>>>As I said there can be no proof, only evidence. People are thus put in the often uncomfortable position of having to decide what’s going on by looking at the evidence and seeing if there is a preponderance of the evidence, there may or may not be. C’est la vie! |
Other factors related to all power cords affecting sound quality, including tricks of the trade, 1. Type of wall outlet 2. Type of wall outlet cover 3. Elevating or suspending power cord 4. Demagnetizing power cord 5. Ionizing or otherwise removing electric static charge 6. Using a contact enhancer on all electrical contacts 7. Choosing a white cable jacket 8. Judging sound quality only after a burn in period of at least 200 hours unless using a burn in device |
Mkgus wrote, in response to my list of desirable power cord characteristics, 13. Cable constructions of multiple gauge wires that influence the way high, medium and low frequencies propagate through the power cable. >>>>He was thinking that multiple gauge wires would help the propagation of high, medium and low frequencies so he was thinking they were audio frequencies, obviously. Not noise harmonics. Cut me some slack, Jack. |
celander682 posts12-19-2018 7:44pmGeoff/Kosst, split personality. There are treatments available. Just saying... >>>>Free psychological advice. What a great thread! |
celander680 posts12-19-2018 6:30pmWhy do I get the impression that Kosst and Geoff are the same person? Anyone else notice they always show up on the same threads? >>>>>Oh, you’ve noticed we show up on the same threads, too. Not sure I go along with your detective work, however. He’s one of my many stalkers. Isn’t it obvious? He always shows up on controversial topic threads, where your humble narrator is oft found. Costco_emoji and I are about as diametrically opposed on most issues as you can get so it’s extremely unlikely we’re the same person. Mystery solved! |
mkgus 13. Cable constructions of multiple gauge wires that influence the way high, medium and low frequencies propagate through the power cable. >>>>Whoa! What? I did not know there were high, medium and low frequencies traveling through the power cord. I was under the impression it was current and voltage, alternating at 60 Hz. 😳 |
kosst_amojan1,871 posts12-19-2018 4: Shielding? The 50 miles of transmission line to your house have no shielding either. >>>>Strawman argument. Like shooting fish in a barrel. 🐠 🐠 🐟 🐠 |
celander678 posts12-19-2018 4:39pmCan’t let Geoff have the last word on this one. +1, to markalarsen I’d go further and suggest all cables are influenced by EMI. And some cables don’t have a shield. Just saying that as a matter of fact, not preference or argument. But arguably, some unshielded cables are highly regarded among those cables having the best SQ, including power cables. >>>>>A little bit of confliction in those statements. |
I accept the challenge. Here are 12 reasons why certain power cords could sound better than others. 1. Higher purity metal (oxygen free, 6 nines, etc.) 2. Higher conductivity metal, I.e., silver 3. Better dielectric material 4. Solid core vs stranded conductor 5. More effective shielding 6. More effective plugs (e.g., better conductors, tighter connection) 7. Conductor wires and strands controlled for directionality 8. Conductors are long crystal copper 9. Solid core metal wires are highly polished 10. Power cord cryogenically treated 11. Thicker conductor 12. Dielectric bias system |