Why is there no love for Prima Luna?

Based on this discussion, what is the price range you are willing to spend and what are the top five within that price range this group would highly recommend and why?

Proud owner of a PL dialogue primum HP integrated.  Bought 3 years ago and sounds amazing with my easy to push Klipsch Forte III’s.  Never had any issues, wonderful little robust, well made piece.  Couldn’t be happier!

Lumin is made in China and so is Line Magnetic! Both best bang for you buck and very well regarded in the US. Outside of that I have not used any admirable Chinese audio products! 

"This is actually a thread in disguise to plug Prima Luna. Get the happy owners to come out and respond. Brilliant! I knew it was gonna go sideways reading the thread title."

I can only share my experience as I own them and it so happens I'm happy with them.
I would think a thread like this would also be an opportunity for the unhappy PL owners to voice their issues with PL as well.
I'd like to hear from them, and I'm not talking about system synergy issues.

I had the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated for many years and really enjoyed it. It was surely a step up from the Cary SLI80 I had been using. I listen to classical and acoustic jazz. My only problem was that the sound seemed somewhat dry and clinical to me. If you’re looking for slam, PL is the way to go, it’s definitely powerful but not as subtle as I wished. I sold it and bought a Line Magnetic 805ia which has the warmth and the more rounded tube like sound I was looking for. Although rated 1/2 the watts of the PrimaLuna, I can’t tell the difference in power, I have never gone past 12:00 on the dial, my Dali Epicon 6 speakers are rated at 88 db sensitivity. No matter what amp you get, budget for at least $2000 for tube upgrades. The stock tubes on both of these machines are pretty meh. With better tubes both these machines really shine.

My first time hearing a tube amp was an all McIntosh system. MC275 and tube preamp. My jaw hit the floor. I couldn’t afford that system but I did get a used Primaluna Dialogue One and I loved it. I wound up upgrading tubes and fuse and I went back to listen to the MC275 again a year or so later and I thought my system sounded just as good. After a couple years the upgrade bug hit me and I decided to get a Line Magnetic LM508. It did beat out the Dialogue One in sound quality but it also retailed for more than twice the price. However it also had a hum and buzz that I couldn’t get rid of. Then it had a problem and I had to send it for service and it was gone almost 6 months. The PL was dead quiet, never had an issue, didn’t run as hot and sounded great. I used the PL while the LM was in service and almost decided to keep it. However I sold it when the LM came back. Eventually I decided to sell the LM too as I just wasn’t super confident that it wouldn’t have an issue again. Both sounded great to me. I could easily live with the PL forever and if the LM was quiet Id feel the same too. I used them with anything from Salk Song3’s, Totem Hawks, Boenicke W5’s, Omegas, Clearwave Duet6’s, and some others. Not all of these speakers are ideal for tube amps but neither amp had issues driving them. Now I’m using a Canary M90 but I could easily go back to a PL amp one day. 

Why don’t you simply contact Kevin Deal and ask him if he is paying his Chinese employees well, working conditions etc.


Here's some pictures of the Line Magnetic factory
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/08/line-magnetic-factory-tour.html

One more thing..... I think it would be really great if PL would post factory tour videos and interviews.  I'd like to learn about that Cayin factory and I'd feel better about stuff if folks working there were paid well, had great working conditions, pride in their work, etc.  For now, we can hope/assume. 

I think Primaluna as a brand gets much respect in the aggregate. Maybe it doesn't get as much on these forums? --I don't know.  

I think it's fair to assume the sell a ton of their units.  Price to entry is lower than say, Mac, Jadis, Luxman tube gear.  

The build quality, while not the best possible, is really substantial for the price.  The labor they have (most likely experienced folks in the Cayin factory) is great.  If you look at the construction it's superb.  Parts quality is A-, in my mind, and is better than some big household audiophile names selling at higher prices.  

I have a few nits to pick about them--yet none is substantial.  With the same budget, could they make the units look a bit slicker?  I don't think they are particularly eye-catching or have anything special to draw the eye in--compare with Luxman, Line Magnetic, Mac.  The PL remotes look way better than their amplifiers--IMHO.  What gives?

Also, the company says XLR is not an ideal input, then adds XLR as, arguably, an ideal input when they release the EVO line.  The company uses a sales point of "we run our tubes more evenly and below tolerances so they last a long time."  Yet, I don't know if that makes a difference as re-tubing or rolling is not cheaper as you have soooo many tubes in the higher models to replace.  Also, I suppose they made design choices and found certain capacitors and parts to sound better than others, but I'd pay more for the option of having different parts options.  It would be really slick if they could make the units easy to cap roll.  I get confused about the science of their autobias.  See Doge Audio's explanation of how and why bias is checked at certain times. 

Customer service is excellent.  Sound quality is certainly superb, even if subjectively it might not make the grade in every system. 

Finally, the higher output Primaluna amps and integrated can drive many speakers--even those of arguably less efficiency.  

I bounce back and forth between a PL HP integrated and a 300B amp.  There are so many things right about PL and nothing that is truly wrong or a problem.  As far as the forums go, I haven't had much push back or adverse opinions about using a PL, but that's one guy's experience.  

China is not making just junk these days.  While I agree with much of the political stuff above, it is important to note that as incomes rise in China they have a booming hifi market. They have some really great home grown brands that deserve our attention--i.e. Kinki Studio, Doge Audio, and Line Magnetic.    I think we have to be careful about saying "Made in X = Y" and judge products and companies individually.  

Hmmm Prima Luna was formed by Kevin Deal (Upscale Audio) & Herman v an den Dungen of Durob Audio (Netherlands) in 2000.

OK, I guess I should have said it is made in "collaboration" rather than "partnership" with the Chinese government.  Those who would like to bypass the middleman and buy directly from the Chinese government might consider Cayin.  That company is owned 100% by the PRC.  Also said to be very good quality.
I don't think these issues are peripheral as they relate to long term satisfaction and future resale value as more people decide to reject products made by a repressive government. 

cincyhound-

it was a goof. I’m just getting the point across that the PL could possibly be a great choice.

As mentioned I’ve been using PL gear for 10 years. With the right set of speakers, it will be just as "good" as any other brand. PL also appears to be a launching point for tube devotees.

Disregard the bashers and let your ears decide. There isn’t anyone here qualified to give you anything more than tech specs which doesn’t guarantee what your ears will like.

tablejockey  Really, this was not a promo in disguise. I was considering the PL Evo line and wanted to understand why I was seeing mixed comments about PL.  Perhaps my subject line could have been reworded, but I was really trying to get at what were the specific reasons from people with first hand experiences with them. I’m happy to hear about the technical and sound quality aspects - both pros and cons. The “don’t buy Chinese” point has been made, now let’s talk about audio itself. 

Dialogue Premium Preamp and First Watt SIT-3 feeding upgraded Klipsch Belle's with SVS sub. Super musical...detailed, airy...to me at least and solid reliability so far (3 years with PL).  Sounds and feels like you're sitting in the jazz club.

No, I avoid Chinese product's when possible. It's really not about quality, you get what you pay for.  I don't care for the government and their business practices.

@glupson but completely correct. As he has proven in this thread.

Just so people are aware, despite his "I know everything" attitude MillerCarbon is flagging dissenting posts.

So when  you see him pop up in your thread, remember his hypocrisy and racism and disregard everything he has to say.

Just as I thought.....

This is actually a thread in disguise to plug Prima Luna. Get the happy owners to come out and respond. Brilliant! I knew it was gonna go sideways reading the thread title.

Once again- the OP simply needs to home demo PL and any other brand and let his ears decide instead of all the "experts" here. The PL ISN'T  "the best" nor is the Raven or ANY brand.

The non audio babble is pathetic and sad.

  I can’t understand the PL bashing either. Not to say they are the best amps, preamps, etc, but quite a good value for the money. For those that like tube gear, me being on of those people, it’s hard to fault someone who may be starting out trying tubes and have little knowledge of there workings. Biasing, tube rolling come with time and a comfort level with the gear and PL gives a lot for the buck with little maintenance. I have had CJ, Moscode, Qujcksilver, all decent brands that ask a lot more of your time to keep them working optimally. I just recently got my first piece of PL gear, the Evo 100 tube DAC and I wouldn’t have bought it if it hadn’t out performed my older DAC, a Rotel 1580. The 1580 is quite good for short money and I got it to get into computer audio. The PL kicks ass over the Rotel, much more liquid, huge soundstage with great layering and a slight warmth which I personally like. Maybe it’s the euphonics from the tubes, I’m not sure but I am very happy I got the PL., it makes computer audio fun and enjoyable as can be and I’m a diehard CD and vinyl person so that says something.

Dear friend I have the old premium dialogue preamplifier and the dialogue HP premium amplifier that I use with Magneplanar mg IIIA. After tube rolling with KT150 I can say that never in my long life I have listen with the greatest plesure. So I acquired the dialogue premium integrated for my quad Z1 and I roll the for valve, always with KT 150 (great valves after 100-200 hour of burn in). Magnificent result. So my brother bought the dialogue premium HP for his old BMW  after drived them with a lot of SS and tube ampiliers. He said that this one will be his last amplifier. Great! Trust me. 

Dear friend I have the old premium dialogue preamplifier and the dialogue HP premium amplifier that I use with Magneplanar mg IIIA. After tube rolling with KT150 I can say that never in my long life I have listen with the greatest plesure. So I acquired the dialogue premium integrated for my quad Z1 and I roll the for valve, always with KT 150 (great valves after 100-200 hour of burn in). Magnificent result. So my brother bought the dialogue premium HP for his old BMW  after drived them with a lot of SS and tube ampiliers. He said that this one will be his last amplifier. Great! Trust me. 

" most people seem pretty happy with their Prima Luna gear. Seems to be well made and supported by the US distributor ..... Prima Luna is made in direct partnership with the Chinese government. "

Hmmm Prima Luna was formed by Kevin Deal (Upscale Audio) & Herman v an den Dungen of Durob Audio (Netherlands) in 2000.

Absolutely love my PL Dialogue Premium preamp which fronts my Cary Audio Six Pac mono blocks. I wonder how many of those knocking the brand because it is made in China have iPhones.

J.Chip

Very happy owner of a PL Prologue Classic integrated for close to 2 yrs now.  It’s driving 42 yr old JBLs (L65s) and probably the perfect tube amp for me given my budget and disinclination to fiddle with adjustments.  Previously, my L 65s were powered by a Pioneer SX-1250, a Denon PMA 700V integrated, and as fronts in an HT setup with a Sony ES series 5.1 receiver.  Hands down, the Primaluna has given me the best sound quality of all these combinations.  I did swap the stock EL 34 tubes for Gold Lion KT 77s this year which have suited my ears significantly better but even with the stock power tubes it’s been the best SQ I’ve experienced thru my speakers heretofore.

My guess on the “lack of love” thing is a mix of geo-political prejudices and the possible SQ improvements one might be able to eek out of a more tweak-friendly component.....sort of a “full racetrack modified Porsche vs a showroom Porsche” analogy here...

@joms  I have demo’d a PrimaLuna integrated with the 805 D3.  Awful match. The 805 D3 is a hard speaker to drive.  The sound was thin and soundstage really didn’t come together.  
There are tube amps that can drive them but PrimaLuna would not be my choice.  

No fan of the CCP and I'm sure all of you out there with your iPhones aren't either.
That being said, I use Primaluna Dialogue Premium separates.
I've haven't had one hiccup since I've owned them. Yes they're built like a tank. Have a look on Google and see the insides of there products.
As far as speakers, I only have higher sensitivity speakers, but they sure do make Tekton Double Impacts and Klipsch Forte II's sing.

I had a Prima Luna Evo 100 mated to Focal Aria 906 stand mounts driven by a Cambridge Audio CXA80 integrated amp and streaming Qobuz through a CA CXN V2 and in my small 14' x 12' room sounded absolutely great, to my ears. Try to find a used PL integrated amp on the used market. They are few and far between. That should tell you something. People who buy them tend to keep them. 

Has anyone tried the Primaluna Evo with the B&W 805D3? Would it be a good match in a small 18sqm/1500cuft sealed bedroom?

I think primaluna may sound great but to me it looks too ugly that’s my only concern 

Pretty sure MC started this, bringing everything down a notch by linking “stop the steal” and freedom of expression.

Pretty sure your reading comprehension* is off the charts- the bottom not the top.

For the record, here’s the very first post.

Honestly, I think is where it’s made.

Also for the record, I never mentioned stop the steal. You did. So what you did, that’s called a lie. People who lie we call liars. People who can’t read we call illiterate.

Just so you know, that is the reason I will never respond to anything you post ever again: no time to waste on an illiterate liar.

*Big word. Sorry. Means you don't understand what you read. Its a form of illiteracy.

Well I either learned something new (one of the benefits of this forum) or forgot this detail, but I either forgot or didn’t know that my Dialogue Premium HP was made in China. It does mate well with my Magico A3s. Not discounting the politics. But politics aside for the moment, there is no denying that some of the best audio gear is made in China. Examples: Denafrips DACs. Topping DACS. SMSL headphone amps. Any number of Chifi IEMs. 

Pretty sure MC started this, bringing everything down a notch by linking “stop the steal” and freedom of expression.  WTF?  Audiogon does rhyme with QAnon, but maybe we should resist the politics. 

From what I have read online, most people seem pretty happy with their Prima Luna gear. Seems to be well made and supported by the US distributor.
Prima Luna is made in the Cayin/Spark factory. Cayin/Spark is a subsidiary of Zhuhai Spark Electronic Equipment Co, LTD. which is owned by China National Aero-technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC). CATIC is owned by the Chinese government. CATIC is also a manufacturer of military aviation products and supplies both China and abroad.In other words, Prima Luna is made in direct partnership with the Chinese government. There is a very good chance that at least some of the parts have been made by slave labor. I know there are lots of ways of rationalizing buying things like this but there are too many other good alternatives from countries that don’t have slave work forces. I would hate to find out one day that my pleasure came from another person’s misery.This is just my choice. In the end it is a personal decision based on my experience in the world.

This year I am upgrading all my equipment.

I am trying to buy from North America and support the smaller audio companies.

I just received a Raven Blackhawk Mk.3.1 Integrated (2020 update) which I am using to power some Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/RAAL.

I only have to use 1/4 turn to drive the Towers. The speakers are even more holographic now that I have added the Blackhawk. 

My cables are all Raven Audio and I was shocked at how extremely well built all the cables were. The amp is extremely well built, with excellent parts from all over the world. Raven is a class act.

I am glad to see great equipment from Asia at a good prices like the Doge 10 or the Willsenton R8.  Can you listen to them before you buy, or do they offer a period of time to decide if you want to keep them?

There are many North American companies that don't get the press Asia is starting to get now. Many of them do offer a 30 or 45 day return policy.

I love my Raven. Thanks Dave, James and Bryant for your excellent products and support.

It’s like trying to make a u-turn in a container ship here sometimes. Good luck Glupson!

Words from the original post...

"Point to point wiring, auto bias, protection circuits, easy tube rolling, good parts and build quality."

Words from one of the responses...

"Sadly, the Orwellian tactics (ie. "ignorant Republican") and barbarity some people will rationalize or "blur" for their "cause" is still a necessary cautionary tale for those unwilling to close their eyes...."

Time to get back on course?

I had a Primluna EVO 300. Later on, I auditioned a Line Magnetic LM805ia with NOS tubes. Pfft! Fuggedaboutit!! Sound wise: Not that Primaluma sounded bad, but definitely Line Magnetic FTW. Warranty and support wise (and if you want all around great people to “Deal” with) then maybe Prima Luna/Upscale Audio. 

First off, I don’t accept the premise of your question. A few negative comments and a bunch of positive ones do not equate to “no love”. There are plenty of quotes about judging success by the enemies you’ve made. It would be hard to argue against PrimaLuna being a successful brand. They are widely available, well reviewed, and have above average resale value. No piece of gear pleases everyone. Anecdotes of mismatched pairings increase with sales volume as uninformed consumers buy what is popular rather than what is suitable. This also happens more as knowledgeable dealers are increasingly taken out of the retail loop. Objecting based on manufacturing origin can be a valid choice, but it is more about politics than either economics or quality. So much of what we consume is made abroad. This is the modern global economy. I’m more concerned with performance, price, and local support. If I’m not confident that there is a low probability that I will need service, and that it will not be a huge hassle to do so, then I don’t care if the factory is across town, cross country, or over seas.

The amp I have has been a solid performer and a great intro into tubes both because of the auto bias and the wide variety of usable tubes. I think it’s a keeper no matter where I go from here.
And I expected no less.

I do pretty well buying American probably 80% of the time. Most of my shop tools are vintage US made...many nos. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

But I bought the Evo 400. It is not as transparent as a Don Sachs Kootenay...which I bought before the Evo 400. But it’s actually close enough...and it sounds more balsy.

Primaluna is voiced to please....like McIntosh.
This means that some are not going to like it.

Running through a good preamp like the Don Sachs model 2...it’s pretty damn good.

Classic liberal logic: can’t answer a single point, because they’re all correct. So instead attack the man, change the subject, make false accusations, distract, distract, distract.

The more you do this by the way the weaker your reasoning powers become until you find yourself one day unable to think of a single thing to say that can’t be distilled down to pure irrelevant nonsense. An insult, in other words, is not an argument. 

So don't do it for me. Do it for the sake of your own soul: Learn to think.

"Ignorant Republican."

Not really an appropriately placed comment.

A friend of mine lives in Florida and bought one, but he returned it soon after because it lacked the power to drive his Wharfedale speakers, and the heat from the tubes made his listening room uncomfortable.  

The Brits make damn good stuff...Linn, Tannoy, Sugden, etc...I love anything UK. Hardly anything I own HiFi wise says made In China...except maybe one of my Dacs that I seldom use.

Bought my PL preamp gently used and I don’t think I could be happier...pretty solid bang for the buck.

It depends on how efficient but there are tons of integrated amps $7K or under that will do the job.

One option is KR.  They are best known for their tubes, but they also make lovely amplifiers.  The KR V880 Integrated is a 50w integrated with a SS, Class A input stage and a KT88 based output stage.  
They make some darn nice amps.  
If you have more efficient speakers and don’t need 50w you could look at a SET.  Nothing from KR or Art Audio (I import both brands) is that inexpensive but Cary, Audion, line magnetic  and I am sure dozens of others are available in a sub $7k price range.  

Love my prima luna preamp.  Yes some guilt about not buying american, but the price is right.  Drives my carver tube amp and makes my Goldenear Ref’s  sing.  I support american when i can, but if everyone that knocks china products would do an inventory in their home of Chinese good, they too would find their money is going that way...

Well, I'm a satisfied Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium Integrated owner.   I've tried many other tube amps in order from ARC D76A, ARC D76B, ASL-USA 845 SET, and now my PL.    The one piece of tube gear I didn't get to try that I wanted to was Raven Audio.  I auditioned a number of SS integrated amps as well and I really liked a few of them (Krell & Pass) but I couldn't see spending so much on the SS when I really liked the overall sound of the PL.    

I don't really care where its made.   I bought it in the US from US dealers who make US profits and pay US taxes.   Most of the equipment components from US manufacturers are made overseas (China) anyway.

Anyway, I've further enhanced my PL as I generally liked the sound by rolling in some different tubes and a SR Orange fuse.

The PL drives my XStatic EC/X full-range electrostatics wonderfully, though they could use a bit more power.

I guess why they make different equipment is because we all have different ears.   You should always trust your ears, not mine nor anyone else's.