why expensive streamers

This whole thread reminds me of the debate about amplification.  There are audiophiles that claim that if 2 amps measure the same then there is no sonic difference between them.

  I’ve tried several streamers in the $500-$4500 range and there are definitely differences. 

I don't claim to be the world's most sophisticated person (let alone audiophile) when it comes to digital audio and playing music from a cloud-based music service, or a hard drive/server.  I do know more than the average person about audio playback systems, acoustics and reverberation time, amplification, cabling etc.
What I have experienced firsthand is the sonic improvements that I have heard when moving source from a high-quality compact disc player, incorporating an outboard DAC (the initial offerings from Theta Digital, Wadia, etc.) and then moving onto a compute solution with an outboard compute-based DAC system. 
First a small Benchmark and then to a Lampizator Baltic 3.  Then USB from compute to the USB input of the Lampizator.  And the differences there were not subtle. 
Then along came a Lumin U2 and WOW! 
Can I technically explain why it sounds so much better?  Maybe a little.
But you know what else adds to the overall sound quality of these more expensive products?  It's still a lot of good quality and attentive detailed engineering.  These things still plug into a wall, have a power supply, have circuitry that are sensitive to resonance and heat, etc.  And there is still that pride of ownership.  Being able to look at something and appreciate what went into designing it, the build quality, chassis finish, the tubes that glow (in some cases) are also all parts of why we purchase what we do.
If that didn't exist then Rolex, Breitling, Phlip Patek etc. wouldn't be providing their watches in the marketplace.  I mean, don't all watches just tell time?  Why own an expensive one?
Same goes for cars; yeah, you can buy a car based on specifications alone, but specifications don't tell you what the leather smells like, how the door shuts so quietly, and how the engine sounds when you turn it on and how fun it feels when you take a corner at 70 miles per hour while still feeling so safe.  (These are just analogies so don't critique my driving habits, please!)
I know I am not helping the discussion specifically, just something I wanted to throw in there!
          

Streamers and dacs work in tandem. I wouldn't get the best out of a DCS Vivaldi DAC  using a Bluesound Node, just as I wouldn't get the best out of a Grimm using a Topping DAC.

Same goes for cars; yeah, you can buy a car based on specifications alone, but specifications don't tell you what the leather smells like, how the door shuts so quietly, and how the engine sounds when you turn it on and how fun it feels when you take a corner at 70 miles per hour while still feeling so safe.  (These are just analogies so don't critique my driving habits, please!)

Right the specs can only tell so much.  You have to test drive the car to know how it drives.

Far too much sense being talked here: I think I need to find a thread with a bit more nonsense!

Some great posts.

I just did a thorough search of all the internet audio forums. This is the 2,134,567th thread devoted to this topic. After the 5th one, nothing else has ever been said that wasn't said before. Yet, here we are again. 

Next time, I suggest doing a search for this topic rather than starting the 2,134,568th thread on the same topic with the same reponses. 

OP: What am I missing? Why are people spending 1000's on streamers?

Audiophile grade DAC's are all withing everyone's budget. If we all agree that the same digital file entering each DAC is well,,,identical. Then the DAC converts it and sends out its analog interpretation of that digital file. During this conversion, each  DAC's colosr and distort the signial in their own way based on the design and opinion of the engineer. The question becomes, do they sound better/worse or just different. Next, do you trust the opinions you get from others without knowing their ability to hear accurately, perfect pitch, and ideal audiophile approved DNA. Add to this each persons equipment and speakers. My rule of thumb is that to spend more that 10% of your system's budget on a DAC's will deprive you of achieving your "ideal system". Enjoy the music!!!

Google the plethora of info about jitter and noise that been available for many years now.  

Next time, I suggest doing a search for this topic rather than starting the 2,134,568th thread on the same topic with the same reponses.

+1 @herman

it a bit fatiguing repeating again and again. Short answer the data rides on an analog stream that’s subject to picking up noise, and minimizing jitter (timing differences)

You go to Munich and visit the $1M rooms for the oligarchs and what do you see for streamers?

Mostly Aurender at around $25K, not saying Aurender is the best, I'm just saying $25K is the benchmark ie at that end of the market streamers are seen as important in the chain.

Even in the $150K system rooms the streamers are minimum $10K, so yeah manufacturers are telling you when they are demoing their gear, be they speaker or amp manufacturers, that streamers matter.

In my system I use the Lumin P1/L2 combo and yes the fiber optic I/O makes for a very easily heard sonic upgrade versus ethernet LAN.

Apropos don't let the "makes zero difference" crowd tell you otherwise.

You're not missing anything. This coming from a former software engineer with network experience. I think we're at a point where the last gasp of the marketeers is down to clocking (jitter), but as you point out the amount of information is not sufficient to cause a problem as jitter measurements are always way under the human capability to hear them. Marketing is a very powerful tool.

Can someone explain what a 432EVO does to recordings on original instruments tuned to 415hz eg Academy of Ancient Music? Does it assume they are tuned to 440 and retune them even lower? Or is it smart enough to tell the difference? Thanks.

I had a BS Node. It sounded good.I changed the power supply and it sounded better.  I added an external DAC and it sounded still better.  I now have an Arunder and it sounds even better.

This is why people get more expensive streamers,  better sound.

Component with probably lowest sonic benefits, with ridiculous price ladder. 

Its basically a low noise ARM based computer with off the shelf components, decent power supply and variant of some Linux OS. Cheap to manufacture, crazy high profit margins.

Going from cheap PC to few hundred $ gives small sonic benefits, but then next step is 2-3k$ streamer, where i bet 95$ people wouldn't pass blind A/B test. 

I tried few cheap and expensive ones, but can't say expensive ones are worth the money, not even close, i would rather invest that in amp, speakers, room treatment. 
 

@kennyc ​​​​and @andy2 and a few others have stated it best.

The 0’s and 1’s that constitute the bits are actually processed with voltage pulses that are susceptible to not only jitter, but also EMI and RFI. While the introduction of noise will typically not cause playback errors or stuttering, digital signals are incredibly delicate, and any introduced noise will detract in a number of ways:

• Timing, which detracts from the focus and snap as if you have a photo just ever so slightly out of focus to a point where you wouldn’t realize unless you compared it side by side to another photo that is sharper/taken with a better lens.
• Harmonics, where the noise detracts from richness, affects tonal balance or liquidity of musical flow.
• Spatial presentation, where noise affects the size of the sound stage and the expansiveness and delineation of performers or elements in the recording.
• Effortlessness, where noise makes sound more etched, brash, or fatiguing.

Addressing noise is a key principle in high end audio, not only in streamers/servers, but in every component (phono stages, preamps, cables, room treatments), etc. With digital, as the signal is notably low in voltage, it takes much less noise to impact at a greater ratio. It takes incredible engineering as a result, via the design of sophisticated linear power supplies, advanced clocking, and isolation of noise from different components through architecture and chassis design to be able to combat the noise and deliver at a fidelity that rises above the typical streaming endpoint.

The high cost of a premium streamer/server is also not warranted for many audiophiles as they may not have a system that is able to take advantage of the auditory benefit they may bring. If someone is not hearing the difference between streamers, it is likely that they either do not have a system optimized to deliver a certain level of clarity or are not listening critically enough to care.

If you have been wanting to upgrade your streamer but have been disappointed with the results, you should be looking to address weak links in your chain first.

The same logic applies to everything even further upstream from the streamer, including routers, switches, Ethernet cables, etc.

I'll certainly echo the importance of clocking in streaming.

My rig included a Musica Capella III via I2S and it turned out to be an upgrade from an Auralic streamer using USB.

Had a chat with the designer of the Capella and he said that he spent the most time and money on the clocking for the unit and combining that with I2S output.

Seeing that my Holo May Dac has two I2S inputs, it turned out to be a match made in heaven.

Audiophile grade DAC's are all withing everyone's budget

that's just fantastic! 

If you are streaming from an iPhone make sure you have Audio Quality set to Lossless Audio (Settings-Music-Audio Quality) Not all iPhones have this setting, but my 13 Pro Max does and it makes a huge difference. Also, I’ve found my Bluetooth connection sounds better than my cable connection. 

See my post: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/any-comments-on-the-slash-3-6-bluetooth-adapter

I'm with mikhailark on this one.... most do not understand how packetized networking works.

Because people should be able to enjoy their expensive bling without being questioned all the time by people who understand computer networking. 

@jji666 but they can hear the difference.

😊

sometimes I feel audio is like selling water:

seller: this is from mountain x, only 100 bottles a day, the purest

buyer: this is a plastic box with H2O  

@soix 
You are right to understand that audio is a simple signal for electronics. Look at even simple video is a much more complex signal, a few dozen years ago some manufactures put video parts into audio equipment and the specs went up exponentially, they sold lots of upgraded microphones to real recording studios who didn't understand the scam. 

You lead a horse to the disco, but you can’t make him dance.

You are right to understand that audio is a simple signal for electronics. Look at even simple video is a much more complex signal, a few dozen years ago some manufactures [sic] put video parts into audio equipment and the specs went up exponentially

@donavabdear Of course!!! Video parts for better audio! Why doesn’t everyone else know this breakthrough info?!?  First, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?  Second, I never said audio was a “simple signal” so don’t know if you’re day drinkin’ or whatever.  Third, what are these prized and superior video “parts” that magically sound better than those designed specifically for audio cause I’d love to know as probably would the audio designers out there who’ve obviously missed the boat here. What’s wrong with them??? It’s so obvious! 🤭🤪🙄

@siox
//Audio (even hi-res) has so little information content relative to the mega and giga bit communication and processing speeds (bandwidth, BW)//

Doesn't that mean the audio signal is simple comparatively? The audio signal is simple the frequencies are nice and long and the timing is easy.  I'm not drinkin', I thought you had an engineering or physics background based on your OP but I'll bite, one of the biggest microphones in recording is the AKG 414 it was and is standard in every studio but for many years this microphone was modified with video op amps with much higher bandwidth video amps that were completely not necessary but they sold because they were "better" completely a scam because you can't hear frequencies that high and the rest of the equipment the mics were plugged into weren't designed for that bandwidth either. Just one example of many in the professional sound world of the 80s and 90s, people in the audiophile world have no technical background and are making the same mistakes. 

@blisshifi 

Maybe copy your post then paste on the next round of “it’s only 1s and 0s”

If they can’t hear it’s extremely likely (near 100%) their system is not transparent enough.   

@kennyc Hah! That’ll be me asking to get flamed. :)

I think blisshifi was referring to something like this,

showing how it's not just 1's and 0's. The digital interpretation/represetation is of an electrical (mechanical) signal, or something like that.

All the best,
Nonoise

I am not trying to upset anyone, but the harsh comments from some that say "if I can't hear it or measure it it must not be real" bother me.  Those members who cannot hear differences in network componets, cables, and streamers and are concerned about why many/most of us can hear differences and you can't, should have a hearing test. If their hearing is up to par, then begin working on increasing the resolution of your system. The example I can give from my personal experience is when I upgraded from a Naim NAP DR300 to a pair of the (new at the time) Parasound JC1+s. Overall they are extremey powerful and even handed amps that can really control speakers, and to my ears don't do much of anything wrong.  My Sasha 2s loved the power especially in the bass. That said, I kept thinking there is more to the music than I was hearing. I changed to a pair of  ARC 160m s, and there was another layer of haze removed. I could hear more details, aspects of the recording I wasn't able to hear before. I now run a Gryphon Antileon EVO and Rockport Cygnus. Spending the time and money increasing the resolution of my system allows me to hear details that were masked when I had a less resolving system. This level of resolution is what allows me (and everyone else that has been to my house) to hear differences in the signal and audio chain.

@wokeuptobose I am really just here to learn. I know nothing, especially about streamers and DACs. So far what I learned here is that the streamer delivers a stream of data, like the mailman delivers my mail. I wouldn’t even know if he delivered it with a Bentley or a Fiat. It's about what lands in my mailbox?

May for a question for ghdprentice as he seems to have had a good number of streamers.
 

Q. What price streamer is appropriate for my system?

McIntosh MA8900, Luxman SACD, NAIM Uniti Core CD ripper/streamer & Von Schweikert Ref Ed floor standing speakers, w high end interconnects & mains. 

I’m thinking I need to upgrade to separate DAC too.

I don’t mind spending $ and I am curious about what I might be missing based on all I’ve read about DAC & streamers. 
 

THX

Dallas TX

@nonoise what does the diagram have to do with streamers?

@grislybutter It's not just streamers, but any digital signal that can be potentially degraded. It was from a review of a USB cord that pointed out the importance of proper shielding, keeping out RFI and EMI at all costs.

I thought it went along the lines of what blisshifi brought up.

All the best,
Nonoise

thanks @nonoise 

@siox
//Audio (even hi-res) has so little information content relative to the mega and giga bit communication and processing speeds (bandwidth, BW)//

Doesn’t that mean the audio signal is simple comparatively? The audio signal is simple the frequencies are nice and long and the timing is easy. I’m not drinkin’, I thought you had an engineering or physics background based on your OP

@donavabdear I’m not the OP and didn’t say that if you go back and read the original thread more carefully The rest of your post is an unintelligible run-on sentence about microphones with an absurd conclusion about audiophiles so I’m not even wasting my time responding to it. Maybe take up drinking — it might help.

I guess the digital transmission theory states that the bitstream from a high quality PC USB stream vs. an RPI4, both feeding the same DAC, would be identical, therefore sounding the same.

Boy was I surprised how much better the RPI feed sounded.

Not sure why.  But it sure does.

If all the opaque but purportedly game-changing technical differences in capability from increasingly expensive streamer models is so audible, why is streaming not doomed from the get-go since it’s sourced from audio-firestorm data centers? Those places are certainly not set up mechanically or logistically to cater to audiophile concerns as a priority.

there are two separate camps on this topic lurking here on this forum.  One argues that spending a significant amount of $ on a streamer can be a waste of your precious resources, because the science, measurements and their experience tells them that beyond a basic level, there’s no difference in sound.  The other camp argues that based on their experience, there are clear differences, and therefore recommend spending upwards of $10k in some situations in order to optimize one’s system. I'm squarely in the first camp. So here’s my view:

Putting aside reclocking and oversampling, the only distinctions across streamers  have to do with levels of jitter and other sources of noise.  These are easily measurable.  Anybody who tells you that a more expensive streamer is less noisy while simultaneously claiming that measurements don’t matter is not credible.  If your DAC is good at rejecting noise (e.g., filtering, reclocking, etc.), you can assemble your own streamer for as little as $150 and it will sound great ( I’ve done this as an experiment myself).  However, if you want something less kludgy than a Raspberry Pi, and you want a streamer that measures and in some situations with some dacs may sound even better than a Pi (and measures and sounds comparable to some of the extremely high $ streamers out there), then there are a bunch of well regarded products that cost between $400 and $1k.  They include the iFi Zen, the Volumio Rivo, Holo Red, Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra, the Primare Np5, and a few others.

Has the OP actually compared different streamers?

When I began my audiophile journey I connected my laptop to my dac via usb, using my Maxbook pro as the streamer with Audirvāna. That sounded good to me. Then I got my first streamer, the Sotm sms 200 ultra neo special edition. That was a huge sq upgrade. The I added their usb ultra, another improvement. Then I added a lps to power those units, another improvement. Then I added an I2S ddc to that chain…everything kept making sq improvements. So in my system a streamer made a huge difference. Now I’m building a DIY Taiko Audio Extreme clone, and so far it’s the best I’ve ever heard my music. I still am tweaking this latest server/streamer, but so far I’m very very impressed with it.

@8th-note This is a Thread I am revisiting and carefully reading the content.

Your Post covering a Streaming Source as Qobuz > PC > DAC AND FLAC > PC > DAC. Where each are compared to a CD Source from a highly recommended producer of CDT has been captivating to my thoughts on how to produce a Streamed Content.

It does seem a dedicated Streaming device is maybe a tool with attractive user  interfaces, and maybe blends in better aesthetically.

Your report strongly suggests that as a end sound in your system, a dedicated streaming device will struggle to present itself as a worthwhile successor to already used devices.    

@pindac Yes, I think you got my point. But the other point I want to make is that if you listen to a new component without using a control to compare it against, you are highly succeptable to expectation bias. It's interesting that so many people on this thread say one streamer sounds better than another but how do they compare to a standard control, like a CD?

My question to the goldenears is, If you hear a significant difference in two streamers, can you describe the differences compared to a CD? Have you compared the same song (using the same DAC) between a streamer and a CD? Did you run this test at least 10 times on different days over a period of at least a couple weeks?

There are dozens (probably hundreds) of blind tests that show that as soon as a listener doesn't know what component he is listening to, the differences in sound mysteriously dissappear. I am unaware of even one blind test that confirms that listeners can tell two streamers apart or two brands of cables for that matter.

My point is that if you are going to compare multi-thousand dollar streamers then you should use a CD as a control to judge their performance. I suspect that doing repeated listening tests, using a control, over several weeks, will greatly diminish the SQ differences between streamers.

@8th-note My experiences of Digital are from a limited time period, I was late to the Party.

My experiences of Digital used in my Home System are measured, I have taken my Bespoke Built Valve DAC to quite a few homes and arranged audio events organised by HiFi Clubs or Forums.

I have the measure of the Digital Source (CDT > DAC) and know how it compares to other Sources, some very carefully selected for the end sound that is to be achieved.

My own Digital Source stands up very very well in all comparisons it has been used in. 

I have heard streamed music from devices costing up to £6K in systems I am not familiar with, and can say without reservation the Streamed Source was not convincing in any demo' given.

More recently I have received Demo's of a Linn Device used to supply streamed and FLAC music as a Source on a system I am very familiar with and can state it the most impressed I have been. Not CD Source or Vinyl Source impressive, but enough on offer from streamed content to suggest there is room for Streamed Content to be used in my home System or as the Sole Source for a Second System, where music is not necessarily to be listen to when seated in front of the Speakers.   

It is these most recent experiences that have encouraged my ear to be on the ground to learn a little more.

Your descriptions enabled myself to see the Source as a multifunction device that can serve more than one role only.

For those interested in an authoritative technical explanation of noise in digital audio, here's a link.

https://audioxpress.com/article/audio-electronics-is-digital-jitter-really-a-problem#:~:text=Noise%20from%20the%20power%20supply,it%20can%20still%20be%20measured.

@mashif - the article is about DA conversion. Jitter is not an issue in networks like Internet.

@nigeltheflash - but then adding DDC synchronized with DAC clock should be eliminating differences between streamers since it fixes USB issues. Converting packets to stream is not proprietary software, it the same Linux network stack everywhere. I am pretty sure everything is heavily buffered (tens of seconds of music), RAM is cheap this days.

@8th-note - CD won't necessarily be better. CD transports also have jitter and CD reading may be unreliable. In fact, I think FLAC stream is way more bit-perfect, than a Red Book CD data retrieval.

Better comparison would be playback of the same track off USB thumb drive - excludes network issues.

@mikhailark exactly, a data stream doesn't have any other attributes and qualities, which is why I am still waiting for an explanation, what an expensive streamer does differently than one that "just works" 

@grislybutter - me too since people claim to hear difference. I am open minded. However, I am also a former software engineer and have masters in math, singnal processing....

I can imagine that low end streamer may have weak CPU (like low power ARM) and small RAM, so it may be losing packets and not sending bits over USB in a timely fashion.

Another thing that network traffic includes other people in the household watching movies, browsing, playing games. Having network switch isolating this traffic from streamer may be beneficial, if streamer itself is a low performance device. After all, high performance would need fans and most people would not want that.