Why don't amplifier Companies use high end fuses?

An observation.  Paul's video experience with hearing a difference when fuses were changed in a component he designed when he had no idea what adjustments were being made to the component directly goes against the oft referenced phrase used here as "Confirmation Bias".  When it was revealed that the change made was the substitution of fuses, he was astonished!

+1 hifiman5 .   he seemed clear that he loved the sound of the more expensive fuses, but as a manufacturer preferred to leave the fuse decision to the owner, though he does not use standard fuses.  I do not own/use aftermarket fuses, have never heard them...

What is even more astonishing is that he did not immediately start using those German HiFi Tuning fuses in his own amps. I mean, what do you have to do, hit someone over the head? The name of which, HiFi Tuning, he could not even remember in the video. Give me a break! Note: HiFi Tuning fuses are not (rpt not) particularly expensive, you know, as far as aftermarket fuses go. What are they going for these days, 20 bucks? Whatever.

@geoffkait  If I remember correctly, I believe Paul indicated that no matter what fuse he incorporates into his designs, there will be audiophiles who will replace them with their own more exotic parts. He already pays attention to the impact that fuses/circuit breakers have in his various designs.  

One thing that Paul does that I admire is, whenever possible, Not promoting PS products in his videos.  He Does include interesting anecdotes in answering questions from his long-time involvement in audio design.  A good guy.

 @mapman ,
He said the audiophile fuse made a noticeable improvement but he uses only the better made than standard ceramic fuses. 

And yes, it has been asserted that not all fuses are the same but I don't recall any naysayer saying that, but rather the ones who've tried them. 

All the best,
Nonoise

No good engineer would use a fuse or any component that does not provide enough certified information to help assure its proper application since the main purpose of a fuse is not to make things sound better but rather to reliably save devices from damage.

Again people who are focused solely on how fuses "sound" miss the main points.

Its also possible in the case where the PS audio guy heard a difference that replacing and freshly seating a new fuse alone is what made the difference. That was not addressed. Almarg and others have repeatedly pointed out the things that might make a fuse change sound better other than the fuses used themselves.

And yes, it has been asserted that not all fuses are the same but I don’t recall any naysayer saying that, but rather the ones who’ve tried them.

Not to toot my own horn but I recall saying exactly that early on in the red fuse thread prior to actually trying the red fuse that OregonPapa sent me.

That was based mainly on my experience working in hifi and electronics stores years back and having assisted many customers with fuse related issues on many different pieces of equipment much of which was not even "high end" by today’s standards.

Well, the audiophile fuses I use are ISO certified to be used in any country. And they are not uber expensive like some other brands. 

In fact, I'm getting a parcel with some new ones hopefully by this weekend. They're made in Germany, sold in China, are gold plated silver fuses with 72 hrs of cryo treatment and 48 hrs of Quantum treatment and they go for a whopping $35 apiece. And they are ISO certified as well.

I'll let everyone know how I feel after trying them out.

All the best,
Nonoise

Please note I didn’t say he wasn’t a good guy. But he said he has no idea how these fancy fuses work. I’m not the one saying it, he is. So, how can he design a fuse? Doesn’t make sense. As I said previously, he should have just sprung for the HiFi Tuning fuses and be done with it. They were the ones that set him back on his heels, for crying out loud. They were the ones that he described as astonishing. He won’t do better than that. Hel-loo! By his own admisssion, unless he was keeping it under his vest, he doesn’t know why aftermarket fuses sound so good.

It’s not clear that circuit breakers are superior to the new wave of audiophile fuses, either. Although they are probably better than ordinary stock fuses.

Anybody who thought my post was "bullying" needs to go to their safe spot and nap for a while. I could post a "trigger warning" before writing things, but then I’d just feel like I’m pandering to the uber sensitive among us, and really, I’m just here to help people. (Not really, but saying I DON’T care seems harsh). Also, I'd like to see a discussion/debate between Paul McGowan and another amp manufacturer who disagrees with his position on Special Fuses.

I hope your post didn't make the snowflakes blow a fuse

I did have a conversation about fuses with another well known amplifier designer, Steve McCormack, when I need to replace fuses in my modified DNA-1 Deluxe. The fuses blew because of a stupid mistake on my part not on any deficiency with the amp. Steve had a clear preference for HiFi Tuning Silver Star fuses which at the time of the conversation were being sold at a discount due to being replaced in the HiFi Tuning line by the Supreme fuse. Steve mentioned that he tried the Supremes in his gear but preferred the Silver Stars.

So now we have evidence that was routinely decried as lacking that some engineers know that fuses make a difference and now it's turning into a meme that we need engineer naysayers to battle it out. 

This is a fool's errand. It looks like anytime something valid is brought up, it's pushed to the side and new demands are made.

It wouldn't surprise me that there's a whole bunch of engineers who know that fuses make a difference but choose to stay mum on the topic.
With social media being what it is, what's to prevent trolls from following and slandering engineers on their products sites, personal forum sites, and the like? I can easily see some here doing just that, and they'd do with with glee. I, for one, wouldn't want them to follow me anywhere save for this site. It's bad enough as it is.

All the best,
Nonoise

Again, proof that once something valid is established, it's off on another laughable tangent we go. Where, in that video, did Paul McGowan pander to snake oil? Or Steve McCormack for that matter?

Exactly nonoise!  My experiences with Steve McCormack have always been based on what is heard not a belief, myth or fable. He engineers a solid design and chooses each capacitor, resistor, wire, etc. to maximize the sonic performance of his gear. I wouldn't want to own components from designers that would do otherwise.  

My guess is that a great number of equipment designers take wires, fuses, directionality etc. into account.  As Paul McGowan said on that video, He's an audiophile too!

Just to be clear, there was no "proof" of anything.

A fuse was changed and he heard a difference. Resetting the original fuse with better contact may have produced a difference as well.

Almarg and Atmasphere have both stated this I believe and that is consistent with my experience as well.

Again that’s not to say all fuses are created equal and some may in fact work better than others.

So the truth as in most cases is most likely right square in the middle and extreme views or blanket statements do not cut it.

Expensive products with nothing to back up extreme claims should be questioned. Those who object are helping nobody but the vendor. Personal attacks should always be right out. The usual high end audio story.

Mapman, sadly, the mildly interesting theory of the flakey fuse holder was debunked. Didn’t you get the memo? 😳 Your excellent use of name dropping notwithstanding. 

The same people who posit that removing a fuse and replacing it also say that rotating the fuse in it’s holder can achieve the same result.

Did anyone double blind that doosey of a claim?

Think about it. From head on, a fuse is officially round. The fuse holder arms are shaped one way only. How could rotating it extract a more significant hold on the fuse? If it could, it would be of such an insignificant amount as to amount to none at all. We’re talking many places to the right of .0 and I’m almost certain it would be a much greater difference than what is measured when fuse direction is changed.

And yet, we are told to believe that that is more believable than changing direction.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise  I could be mistaken but I believe the argument made by fuse skeptics has been that merely the process of removing one fuse and inserting another is, through the friction involved in that action, removing oxidation from the fuse holder giving the reinserted fuse a cleaner connection to the holder and thus a perceived improvement in sound.

@hifiman5 
Yes, I was aware of that but that argument (which has it's own fallacies) usually comes with it's partner: rotating the fuse.

As to the claim that some microscopic piece of junk will impact a change of sound in a place where they also claim it's impossible to have a change of sound gives me pause. It's a prefect example of "whataboutism".

If that is so, then why don't I hear the same level of improvement when taking out and reinserting speaker cables and interconnects? I do hear a very slight improvement when I clean them but it is in no way of the level of improvement heard when dealing with aftermarket fuses. 

I appreciate the clarification though. 👍

All the best,
Nonoise

Hifiman yes that is often the case and I can attest to the fact that it can make things sound better having encountered it many times working on customer gear. In fact. When a customer brought an amp in for service complaining about bad sound, we always first tried to reset the fuse before sending the unit out for repair. In many cases doing that resolved the issue and proved that it can happen.

We also experimented with replacing fast blow fuses with slo blo and found that could make a difference too. Of course we never actually left a slo blo in when a fast blo was required.


These were all standard issue fuses commonly used in hifi gear of the day.   Nothing fancy required. 

Do you think it was due to the cheap tin alloy of the end caps in the standard fuses you encountered? Also, what grade of fuse holder?

The ones in my Marantz Reference series gear are high quality silver plated and so are the aftermarket fuses I use and I've never encountered such a thing. I guess you get what you pay for.

All the best,
Nonoise

FWIW, with the three exceptions cited below, as far as I can recall not a single member who has reported audibly significant direction-related fuse effects has ever stated that he has done either one of the following:

1)Reversed and re-reversed the direction of the fuse multiple times, to verify that the perceived differences were repeatable.

2)Experimented with fuse rotation, to determine if rotation could achieve results comparable to the alleged directional effects.

The exceptions:

1)Ralph (Atmasphere), who has stated that he has experimentally verified that no. 2 above can be audibly significant, at least in the case of power amplifiers.

2)A member by the name of SGordon1, who reported in the Red Fuse thread on 5-3-2016 that rotational effects were audibly significant in his power amp, and consequently he "encourages everyone to experiment with fuse rotation!"

3)On that same date in the Red Fuse thread Oregonpapa stated as follows:

Warren Gehl is the chief listener at Audio Research. There isn’t a piece of equipment, repair or new, that leaves the factory until its signed off by Warren. He not only takes the time to orient the fuses’ direction, but also the proper rotational position to ensure that the equipment will sound its best when it arrives at the customer’s home.

Regards,
-- Al

As for:
1) I have tried it twice with my first set of aftermarket fuses and did not feel the need to do it multiple times. The first time I did it seemed to be enough for me but after the long and contentious posts, I tried it again.
Same results. I know what I hear. With my second set of aftermarket fuses, I quickly ascertained the correct direction by reversing them only once. No need to do anything further. I owe no one here a rigorous set of attempts to justify anything once I hear a clear and definite distinction.

2) I tried to rotate the fuses but they are held tightly in place and are difficult to do so. I've stated this in another thread. Once again, how does rotating a circle in a semi fixed holder change the amount of surface contact? I smell a red herring.

3) As for Warren Gehl, good for him. He knows that fuse direction is important but I question his reasons for rotating them.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise Totally agree with point #1 above! We are serious listeners who truly care about what we hear, not whether or not we can provide experimental data to validate what our own ears tell us.

As I have mentioned before...if someone doesn’t hear an effect that we perceive that’s fine. We recognize that as individuals we all will hear slightly differently due to anatomical differences and/or the interface between our ears and our brain.

Agree with #2 above with the caveat that I think the argument isn’t about the amount of surface contact, but that rotating the fuse will displace oxidation or dust/dirt to yield a better electrical contact. Oh, and yes, as you stated, rotating fuses in most holders is a B****.

Listen, how many hobbies involve "snake oil " ?. Certainly one of them is high end audio. Fuses, cables and cable lifters, green pens, isolation products, etc. Try them yourself. If you hear a difference, great. If you do not, that is fine also. But, the people who have not tried " it ", saying that scientifically it does not make sense, should be ignored ( they know who they are ). It seems they live for this. In fact on another thread, one of these individuals here, mentions, that, depending on how he "flicks " the power switch on his dyi power amp, he often blows fuses. Go figure.

If anyone would like to know who, I will be happy to post it. But, as far as I am concerned, this individual has no credibility with me, on pretty much, any subject he "trolls ".

@mrdecibel   Regarding the first of the above two consecutive posts, no noise and I have been expressing a similar sentiment here. ( I hope I am accurately portraying your sentiments here, nonoise) The point you rightly emphasize is about the naysayers who haven't even tried the very tweaks they disparage.  I'm not going to categorically state anything as absolute truth in my experience, if I haven't experienced it!

Nonoise I encountered pretty much every major brand of the day in the late 70s working at tech hifi Lafayette Radio and later Radio Shack.   Mcintosh would be one exception.  It can happen.  Believe me!  YMMV.   

Mapman, I believe you but without offending anyone, I feel it has to do with the nature and quality of products made in those times. Fuses were fuses and fuse holders were fuse holders. Not much variance required in something that, at the time, was considered not that important but in the end, was, as evidenced by your tweaking the fuses in their holders. 😀

All the best,
Nonoise

hifiman5 Absolutely

Why don't amplifier companies use high end fuses?
The next question would be: Why don't amplifier companies use high end power cords or vibration control devises?
Surely many of us have heard the differences in power cords or vibration control devises including amplifier companies that use them in their sound rooms and will recommend them to customers when pressed. 
I don't know whether high end fuses make a difference but I intend to experiment to find out. There may be no known scientific reason or  existing measurement that is capable of quantifying any difference. I'll trust my ears over anything.

I think most of the high end amp makers are in the pocket of Littelfuse lobbyists who are trying to take over the world. Hell, I’m relatively sophisticated (!) and even tested some "special" fuses…stayed with my Littelfuses as, clearly, I’ve become a victim of the "spend 2 bucks on a reliable fuse that works like it’s supposed to" hype. I could say I’ve spent a pile on Littelfuses (if I replaced all the fuses in the hifi rig it would cost over 20 bucks…maybe) but I haven’t because they just keep working…part of the scam man…I’m TRAPPED.

@kosst_amojan   We are not seeking proof.  We are not tweaking the sound of our systems so we have something to measure.  All we care about is maximizing the sonic satisfaction we receive from our systems.

It is not about facts.  If I change footers under my preamp and I enjoy the sound more, if a guitar sounds more like a real guitar is in the room, for example, then that's a change I will embrace.

I'm not going to measure it or even try.  What in the world would you measure such a sonic change with?

I appreciate science and solid engineering principles as much as the next audiophile but it is not a religion for me.  It is what allows well  designed gear to exist but it doesn't inform my entire listening experience.

If tweaking footers, tubes, wires, fuses etc. isn't an aspect of the audiophile experience that you want to participate in, that's okay.

Enjoy the music!

The ONLY way we have of observing reality, of perceiving the world around us, is through the senses. That’s why we have eyes and ears. To see the world and hear what is there. For Early Man hearing was absolutely critical for his survival, what with Sabre Tooth Tigers and other predators lurking about. 🐅 Mathematics would have been unable to save Early Man from tigers and bears. Fortunately, Early Man was endowed with a direction, distance and speed calculator in his head for calculus, integration - for survival. Squirrels, by contrast, are not so endowed. 🐿 That’s why they frequently become roadkill. We can thank evolution for our keen sense of hearing, which is critical for figuring out what works and what doesn’t, and which direction to pursue. Even the direction of fuses. Tee, hee

Music soothes the savage breast. When it’s not music, it’s just irritating.

An an ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - Old audiophile axiom

The emperor has no clothes. - Audiophile axiom

First, a point of information: Some of the responses which followed my previous post lead me to believe that references to "fuse rotation" are being interpreted differently by different people. To clarify, I believe that what was done by the three gentlemen I referred to in my previous post who have **actually tried** rotating fuses did NOT necessarily involve, or at least require, rotating the fuses while they were in their holders, which as has been said above would often be hard to do. As I understood it, removing the fuse from its holder and then reinserting it with differing rotational orientations would suffice, which of course would be no more difficult to do than reversing the fuse’s direction a corresponding number of times.

Also, the underlying cause of the rotational effects Ralph (Atmasphere) observed in his experiments was NOT stated to involve removal of oxidation or other impurities from the contact surfaces. I’ll quote his explanation of the phenomenon directly, as stated in this thread:

Atmasphere 5-23-2016 4:52pm EDT

It has to do with the fact that the connections on fuse holders are not perfect. The act of reversing the fuse sometimes gets you a better connection. However, directionality really isn’t the issue. Similar to a power switch, the contact area of the fuse holder that is actually doing the work is a fraction of the total contact area. As a result, if you simply rotate the fuse in its holder, you will find that there is a best position where more of the fuse holder contact area is touching the fuse contacts. When the fuse was reversed, on occasion you got better contact or worse contact, which appears initially to be a directional issue, but that is really an illusion.

Interestingly, this effect is measurable as a voltage drop across the fuse holder. As you might expect, the less voltage drop the better. So it is possible to adjust (rotate) the fuse in the holder for minimum voltage drop and thus the best performance. A side benefit is the fuse will last a little longer as the operating temperature is reduced.

Atmasphere 5-26-2016 12:31pm EDT

I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact. The improvement is measurable and audible; descriptions others have made on this thread of what happens when you get the direction right accurately describe what happens when the contact area is maximized.

Occam’s Razor has something to say here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself.

A simpler explanation is that the reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly.

Does all of that sound at least somewhat implausible, even though Ralph’s claims are based on actual experiments? It would not be unreasonable to think so, IMO. However, I feel safe in saying that to most of those having an extensive background in electronic design (such as myself) the notion that a fuse would have **inherent** directional characteristics to an audibly significant degree is substantially MORE implausible.

And as I have said in a number of past threads, in audio it is often extremely easy to attribute a perceived effect to the wrong variable.

Regards,
-- Al

kosst_amojan

...  what you think you're hearing IS pure belief and NOT proof in the slightest. Such a semantically obvious fact illustrates how deeply confused you people are about the difference between belief and facts ... I've never seen any hobby embrace snake oil like this one! Not even close! The faith people here place in various tweaks that do nothing can only be compared to the powers the superstitious attribute to magic talismans ...

Thanks for sharing your deeply-held faith-based convictions. I think many of us had already figured them out, but this post makes them more clear than ever. The only part that I don't understand is why you're so angry with so many on this forum. Most of us are just here to have fun, it seems. What are your motivations? Is it just to proselytize? 

Frankly, and I certainly have no animosity towards anyone, nor intend any disrespect, but I disregard with prejudice what ANY pseudo skeptic, naysayer or Crusader Rabbit presents as evidence or proof for any controversial tweak, including fuses, fuse directionality, wire directionality, etc. Who cares? Anybody can dream up some bizarre case they think will turn the tide. It’s actually not (rpt not) up for debate. Case closed. Like the mind of Crusader Rabbit. 🐇

The whole idea that rotating the fuse improves the sound, and is therefore the real reason audiophiles hear improvements when flipping fuses, is preposterous on its face, anyway. Because the odds are 50-50 that the sound would be *degraded* by rotating the fuse. Besides, if someone can’t hear the difference in fuses or in fuse direction, I certainly don’t believe they can hear fuse rotation. It doesn’t make sense. Judge Judy says if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. Furthermore, we already know that fuses measure according with the direction they are oriented in. Case closed. If you can’t hear that’s your problem. Better get it checked out. 

• It is not about facts.

Yep. That’s it in a nutshell. Cheers! Too much time spent talking about fuses. People will think and do what they will and are not likely to change, especially the older folks like me.

Mapman wrote,

”People will think and do what they will and are not likely to change, especially the older folks like me.”

Can I quote you on that? 😀 Next to, “Only quote facts,” yours is my favorite.

On a speaker thread, someone recently spent $1300. on a pair of speaker isolation products, claiming it took his system to an extremely higher level of musical satisfaction. I can believe it. It is still amazing to me, that people like kosst ( a troll imo ), requires scientific facts to back anything up. A long time ago, Julian Hirsch, compared, by electrical measurements, an inexpensive japanese receiver to a relatively expensive amplifier, at that time, showing how close the two products were. I do not recall if he " listened " to these two products, but I do believe he made the comment, that if they measure the same, they must sound the same. Some people need to wake up, give things a try ( a little fuse test ), and trust their ears. If they are NOT WILLING TO TRY AND LISTEN, how can they make a comment at all ?

My main criticisms of Magic Fuse performance are the claims of what the fuse can accomplish. Measurable directionality only means that possibly current flows a TINY BIT better in one of the directions and that phenomena is rendered meaningless in an alternating current. I get that better contact between the fuse and holder is a good thing, but it's when the current gets to the rest of the electronic bits, rectified, modified, deep fried and otherwise,  the benefits of whatever inexplicable and imagined bees wax/voltage bombardment/psuedo quantum whammy/graphene coating/ or any other sales based baloney is hard to swallow, although swallow it Fusers do…all day…I tested the bejeezus out of a pile of SR fuses (embarrassingly, but had to in order to ethically allow myself to continue questioning this crap) and "proved" if only to myself that I can't swallow this particular stream of fuse goo. Others enjoy it, feel it makes cellos sound better, but until somebody explains what's what with the design goals of Special fuses I'm not swallowing any of it.

Al,

Geoff is 100% correct!

I have 100% verifiable proof that fuses are directional and need to be installed in matched pairs. Simply stick one fuse in one ear and listen and then place another matching fuse in the other ear! I guarantee you that it will sound different even with just one fuse and that ONLY two matched fuses will produced a balanced even soundfield. I guarantee it!

Geoff and his acolytes will be delighted with the scientific demonstration of the FACT that fuses make an audible difference. Furthermore, the fact that fuses need to be installed in MATCHED pairs means more sales and more profit.

Do you think that that tiny bit of difference remains the same once it's been rectified, modified, deep fried and otherwise? Seems to me that that small and insignificant difference cited plays a larger role once it goes through all the various permutations before it comes out. 

Jitter, no matter how small, distorts more and more as it goes along as does any kind of distortion. It's funny how some are now admitting that there is a difference but it just simply can't explain why the sound changes yet that very same criteria most certainly applies to everything else. You can't have it both ways.

All the best,
Nonoise

One last comment I will repeat that I think I made eons ago early on in teh red fuse thread is taht I ahve also seen cases where fuses only blow partially ie the filament is partially but not totally melted. More prevalent with slo blo fuses. Obviously this is just another case where all fuses are not created equal however replacement with any good quality new fuse is all that is needed to rectify.

So yes fuses can be delicate little beasts and do matter but like most of high end audio the returns on more expensive products are diminishing at best and nill in some cases at worst.

They are also not complicated devices and as difficult to understand as some vendors make them. Its reasonable to expect that some portion of the discussion about them is just noise but hey only one way to find out if one actually cares. Personally, I’d focus on making sure my fuse is good quality and in good working order and look pretty much anywhere else (except Machina Dynamica for example) for things that will make clear significant differences in sound quality.

But hey some people like to go where no man has gone before. The question then becomes how much of their tales is fact versus fiction.

I think it's utterly worth it to invest in extremely high quality and safely designed products with companies with an unimpeachable reputation as leaders in their field. That's why I'll spend the 2 bucks on Littelfuse products…I can hear the difference as without them in my gear, there's just no sound at all.