Why don't amplifier Companies use high end fuses?

I didn’t realize the military had so many audiophiles. 😬 Are the highest level fuses directional? Do they have military grade fuse holders, too? I will say I have tried and like very much the MIL SPEC Silver on copper Teflon wire from US Navy surplus. I also used to have power cord from US aircraft communications section. Someone needs to reverse engineer the military fuses obviously. On a sour note, this fuse thing sounds suspiciously like the old Hospital grade wall outlet fiasco. And Hospital grade power cord plug. They’re good, but not as good as audiophile grade wall outlets and plugs. The plugs are designed primarily not to pull out of the socket easily. The audiophile grade outlets *sound* better, and they also have great mechanical contact. Having written specifications for military communications equipment I’d opine the chances are good the MIL SPEC for fuses specifies reliability and shock resistance, things of that nature, but not sound quality. But Mil Spec tubes sound great! Final answer.

@geoffkait , I agree with your assumptions regarding fuses and their intended uses, which originally didn't include audio. I think it was just a matter of time before some forward thinking audiophiles took a good, hard look at what's out there and capitalized on it. 

Good for them. I wish I'd done it. 😖

It will forever be argued that the markup is too high but some these fuses and are seeming to be purpose built for audio applications while some are just rebranding. They're not all alike and some perform better than others so it's threads like this that help to sort things out.

All the best,
Nonoise

From a quick scan of military fuses it appears anyone can buy them from at least two sources, our old friends Littelfuse and Bussmann. I think the problem for audiophiles - aside from the obvious one, what they sound like - is that they are apparently all super fast blow fuses. If I’m not mistaken almost all aftermarket audiophile fuses are slow blow.

Costco, I see no reason for you to refer to me as God. Explosion proof? Maybe, but audiophile outlets and power cord plugs are still better sounding than hospital ones anyway. Just like audiophile fuses are better sounding than military ones. So who cares?

Have a nice hair day

From a quick scan of military fuses it appears anyone can buy them from at least two sources, our old friends Littelfuse and Bussmann. I think the problem for audiophiles - aside from the obvious one, what they sound like - is that they are apparently all super fast blow fuses. If I’m not mistaken almost all aftermarket audiophile fuses are slow blow.

A good aftermarket fuse is slow blow or very long time lag, in basic design.

IIRC, it is SOC that came up with the best time lag element design?

To this day, Japanese audio gear comes equipped with SOC brand fuses, and I opened up a 1973-4 manufactured Yamaha CR-1000 receiver the other day, and inside of it were original...SOC fuses.

That's at least 43-45 years of Japanese audio companies using SOC fuses. There's a reason for that.

All that being as it may be, we know that we are probably invalidating our given house insurance when we put the wrong fuse type or value or both...in the given gear, just because it sounds better (to us). (I don't play that game, personally, I use my own fuse designs)

A test, for anyone who is interested. Take a 1 1/2 inch piece of painters tape ( I use the blue Scotch 3M 1 inch width size roll ), cut this piece the long way, to get yourself a 1/2 inch wide strip, and apply it on the glass of the fuse, leaving a bit of the glass showing on each end of the fuse, and put the fuse back. Of course, make sure the equipment is off, when you are doing this, clean the ends of the fuse of fingerprints, reinsert the fuse, and listen. Keep in mind, the equipment needs to warm up ( restabilize ). Do 1 fuse at a time. Can do this on any fuse. Let me know what you hear ? And yes, I am a tweaker. 

Maybe, just maybe, keep the fuse in the same direction as before removing it.

If ya don’t know I ain’t goin’ to tell ya. It’s for me to know and you to find out.

+1, geoffkait 😉

There is a relatively new product called Anti Vibration Magic, which works. The painters tape mimics the same effect. A buddy of mine uses black electrical tape ( which comes in many colors ). AVM is quite expensive ( imo ), and is used by a few high end audio manufacturers, and is very popular in the diy community. A long, long time ago, I was one of the 1st ( that I knew of ) that used mortite, under the platters of direct drive tts. At that time, I had a friend who was an engineer with Nakamichi, who told me about a simple and easy tweak, that I have been doing for years ( similar to AVM ). This tweak was to use a non glue, waterproof, silicon sealant, available at your Lowes or HD ( even Walmart ), and with a tooth pick ( or something like it ), apply to areas within a component. Wiring, capacitors, circuit boards and the chassis. Caveat : MUST LET IT DRY. It is all removable, and, can be quite messy. But, incredible improvement. This can be for the same purpose as adding a piece Dynamat ( or similar product ) to the underside of a component lid, to dampen vibrations. Anyone who feels I am looney ( kosst ), I do not care. Never knock it until you try it. MrD

If anyone wants to try it, I use Dynaflex 230, window and door sealant, by DAP. It is available in a squeeze tube, but I purchase it in the 10.1 ounce tubes. If you purchase it in these larger tubes, you need a caulk gun, and, need to puncture a seal at the bottom of the tip ( after cutting off the tip itself ). The color does not matter, but I use clear. It comes out white, but becomes clear after it dries. I finished up a Monster Cable power thingy, and, unbelievable ( not my first conditioner ). Another thing. i DO NOT DO THIS ON ANY EQUIPMENT UNDER A MANUFACTURES WARRANY, as it would likely void it. I only dabble in the used market anyway, and, I do it to products I intend to keep.

One last thing. There are many parts within a component that are temperature sensitive, in other words, get hot ( transistors, resistors, transformers, tubes ), that I encourage caution. I do not apply on these, but if given room and with proper heat dissipation, certainly around them.  For tubes, I recommend dampers, and not caulk ( or AVM ).

Last thing. Certain parts within a component chassis are very heat sensitive, and require dissipation of that heat ( transistors, resistors, transformers, and some others ). Proceed with caution. I leave these components alone, but will apply around them if given the room for proper heat dissipation. Tubes, I recommend dampers, nothing more.

Uh, are you SURE you’re in the right thread? 

Great posts mr d. You should post this stuff on the recent "Best tweaks EVER" thread. Good stuff.

I tried AVM once, even on some Hi FI tuning fuses’ glass. Can’t say I noticed a sound improvement, but would certainly agree that it is expensive and messy.

Dave

George and Dave, I am sure you two are correct, as this is where these posts should be.

George and Dave. Thanks. I will try to copy and paste.

George and Dave. Thanks, I will try to copy and paste. Always, MrD

OK, let’s get this thread back on track, people. Which is why high end amp manufacturers don’t employ audiophile grade fuses in their amps. The obvious reason is they aren’t aware of aftermarket fuses or ANY issues with fuses, including wire directionality, so why would they? It’s an audiophile thang. And even many audiophiles don’t subscribe to high end fuses, so why would amp manufacturers? Hel-loo? As I’ve opined before, amp manufactures are, generally speaking, obsessively “circuit oriented” and very conservative when it comes to audiophile concepts like fuses, or power cords or vibration control. Another possible reason high end amp manufacturers don’t use high end fuses is they don’t have the inclination or time to keep up with all the developments in audiophile fuses, even if they were aware of them - which they’re not. There is a new development in fuse technology about what, once a year? Plus the manufacturers would have to ascertain the correct fuse direction. That would be the minimum, and they don’t even do that for whatever stock fuse they use. So, most likely they are blissfully unaware.

Furthermore, if an amp manufacturer IS cognizant of aftermarket fuses, which he’s probably NOT, he SHOULD be aware of WHY the fuse is IMPORTANT, even CRITICAL, to the sound. Consequently, the minimum effort for an amp manufacturer should be to implement vibration control, RFI/EMI control, magnetic field control to the fuses as a matter of course.

“We don’t need tweaks.” - German high end amp manufacturer at CES circa 2000.

Which is why high end amp manufacturers don’t employ audiophile grade fuses in their amps.

Of course they would if it made the amp sound better. Better sound = more sales!!  But sadly Geoff it doesn't.



Cheers George 

What’s sad is they, like you, are ignorant of fuses. Obviously. Obsessively circuit oriented. It doesn’t take a weather man to know which way the wind blows. Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️

What’s sad is they, like you, are ignorant of fuses. Obviously. Obsessively circuit oriented. It doesn’t take a weather man to know which way the wind blows. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Ooo, getting testy there Geoff, your calling the most influential designers in audio "Ignorant", I don't think it's them, but I'm sure they'd have something to say about you.

Cheers George 

@kosst_amojan 
I didn't usually like to get involved in your and Geoff's love fests, but your statement about hospital grade outlets is incorrect.

From UL:  In addition to complying with the general use requirements, hospital grade receptacles are specially designed and are subject to additional requirements of the standards. These include additional grounding reliability, assembly integrity, strength and durability. 

As you can see, nothing about being explosion proof. All the literature indicates that hospital grade outlets are mostly differentiated from general use outlets by more robust construction and greater clamping force.

Carry on. And maybe don't be so quick to accuse Geoff of making stuff up when it seems you are not completely innocent yourself..

I've recently changed my mind about Special Fuses…I used to think they were useless and silly "faith based" tweaks, but now I think purchasing those things could be a sign of some sort of insanity so my compassion tendency kicks in (or maybe it's just "Holiday Spirit")…they're still useless and overpriced nonsense, but the purchase and utilization of them could simply be an uncontrollable act for some, and that's OK…if Ted Denney would donate the million bucks or whatever he's making from these things to Faith Based Tweak Compulsion Syndrome (FBTCS or "fubtucks") deprogrammer therapists, it would be a win-win.

Another contributor recently called such snake oil gear a deserved tax on the stupidity of the rich. I can assure you that not all rich peope are stupid, but there are obviously quite a few suckers among them.

@wolf_garcia   Why?  Why the name calling and middle school responses?  Did you see the video of that poor middle school boy who was being relentlessly bullied at school?  Come on...you're better than that!

@kosst_amojan   Me neither.  That's the point!🤨

@kosst_amojan   ??? Re-read my posts?  Maybe I'm just being obtuse this evening.

Chances are good you just experienced another DMT flashback. You’re up awfully late for a school night, young man. 

Interesting: http://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/audiophile-fuses/

Maybe it’s just me but it’s a little alarming to watch an amp manufacturer try to explain high end fuses on camera. It’s probably a good thing the guy from NJ who asked him the question didn’t ask him to explain fuse directionality. 😀 Not to mention the guy from NJ probably didn’t install his fuse in the right direction, which would explain why he said his new fuse sounded a little too bright.

If there was a reason to I'm sure they would.  Says a lot.

Maybe fuse lovers should try the same fuses that the experts choose to use when designing their gear? Might save some $$$$s. Make sure the contacts are clean and the fuse is properly installed for best performance. Also of course always make sure the specifications are correct for use in your gear. You might not be able to afford top of the line VAC amps but you could probably squeeze the fuses they use.

Mapman
Maybe fuse lovers should try the same fuses that the experts choose to use when designing their gear?

>>>>>Huh? That’s kind of the whole point of this thread. Most high end amp manufacturers do not (rpt not) use aftermarket fuses. Nor are they even aware of them. Nor are they even aware of wire directionality. Nor are most audiophiles. Hel-loo! On the other hand, it’s a free country. You are free to ignore it, you are free to use aftermarket fuses, you are free to use circuit breakers, you are even free to bypass the fuses. You are even free to change the fuse direction or to not change it. I bypassed the fuse on my Super Modded Oppo. Was that wrong? 🙄

definition of an Expert: Some guy in a cheap suit 50 miles from home.

another definition of Expert: Someone who use to be a drip under pressure.

I Bypassed the Fuse in my Hot Rod Oppo and Lived to tell About it.

Thanks for the link @lak 

Kinda says it all, doesn't it?

Newsflash. I can hear the difference fuses make. However, I made an extremely interesting discovery. What I discovered is that you must use them in matched pairs. Yes! I know some of you will be skeptical but it is the truth! Only matched pairs of fuses work. It maybe something to do with the positive and negative swings of the AC power. AC stands for Alternating Current. So it is made up of two directional movements. I have discovered like many that fuse direction makes a big difference. So I theorized that if fuse direction makes a difference then the best solution is to use TWO fuses in a matched pair. This discovery is probably the biggest discovery in audio since the tube was invented. A single fuse always sounds unbalanced - like the sound is louder from one speaker than the other - ONLY two balanced and carefully matched fuses will produce an even stereo soundfield and soundstage. Try it yourself. I totally guarentee you will hear a difference. Stick a fuse in one ear and listen then try matched fuses in both ears. Voila! No need to conduct blind listening tests - the difference is staggering - it is almost unbelievable but MATCHED pairs of fuses is the solution to achieving incredible soundstage and stereo image!

I didn't know Steven Colbert was here!😝

that PS Audio piece is a great explanation...so it seems there are high end companies that use high end fuses

Ahem, sorry, there was no explanation. He said he didn’t know why they worked. If a manufacturer doesn’t know how they work how can he possibly design one for his product? Hel-loo! What he actually said was he uses circuit breakers, not fuses. He was very brave to make the video. 🙄

The PS audio guy said they use good quality fuses not high end or the most expensive. Big difference! Its been asserted since the start of teh Red fuse thread that not all fuses are created equal but good quality ones can be had for much less than "audiophile" fuses.

His explanation is a good one. Nobody know why audiophiles hear or prefer what they do so no reason to put in a more expensive fuse that has no clear advantage over another other than the fact that some people may hear a difference and like it better.

Similar to most high end/audiophile products in general except more so. Except fancy fuses only cost 3 digits not 5 or six so easier to dabble with if one is so inclined.

His explanation is consistent with the viewpoints offered by myself, Almarg, Atmasphere and some others I believe. Not with Geoffkait’s who seems to be mostly interested in muddying the waters and providing some comic relief along the way to make it more digestible.

The problem is still with the people who insist a fancy fuse ALWAYS makes a difference and if you don’t hear it you are defective which is simply not the case. They are providing very misleading information that benefits only the sellers and not educated buyers.

He said in some products he used ceramic fuses, in some circuit breakers. 

And also stated why he doesn’t use very expensive fuses 

Exactly! No high end amplifier companies use high end fuses. That’s what this thread is all about. I hate to judge too harshly or too quickly but could it be because they’re too cheap to use aftermarket fuses?