I have read thousands of comments on upgraded fuses improving the performance of sound. I am very open minded but not sold either way. So, the question I have is....if fuses were so important, than why don't Amplifier companies all install them as OEM equipment? To me, if they are as good as people say, that would provide companies who use them a competitive advantage?
Every High End Audio store I go to in Phoenix have told me it does not make a difference and is a waste of money. For the record, I have fuses purchased at an automotive store for under $10 and I think my sound is awesome. The Company that built my amp tested the Synergistic Fuses and he emphatically said there was no difference.
If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try?
A modest proposal. I propose that hearing and perception are the same thing. There is no real reason to say they are something different. Hearing is a sensory perception just like vision. It's how we perceive realityThis is not to say there cannot be wide variations among even experienced audiophiles regarding hearing ability, experience in listening and so forth. But I think it's wrong to say perception of sound is something other than what we hear as if it's something undefinable or mysterious. Again this is not to say hearing is not complex or even sometimes mysterious. Heaven forbid! And I'm not discounting psychological effects from the whole listening equation, either, things like placebo effects, expectation bias, etc. Nor can we discount listeners' testimony regarding what they hear. It's unfortunate that naysayers frame positive results as some some of delusion.
Speaking of reality I also suggest that physics, strictly speaking, is not reality in the sense that physics as a science represents what we know, what we have discovered about physical reality. But physics as a science is incomplete, and continually growing. It would be rather presumptuous to assume something mysterious or puzzling MUST be inexplainable by physics. It's premuptuous to assume directionality of wire, disobeys some physical law or even theory. It may very well disagree with what many people assume is understood by science or physics.
From intro to Zen and the art of Debunkery:
Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics.
As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery.
Really??? 2-3db difference in absolute volume because of changing the direction of the mains fuse? I’m stunned and speechless.
Cheers George
All you need to do is to try it. That's all anyone who doubts this has to do. Until then, you're just knocking your head against the wall.
I get it. People who are deep into this hobby and "know it" inside out, have overlooked something very simple: the fuse. Imagine all the amp builders/designers out there, laboring away at their craft, scratching their heads as to why, despite reading all the manuals, following the schematics, they end up with something that doesn't sound quite right.
So they get inventive. More NFB here, less there. More shunts and chokes. Tinker here, tinker there. Change this, change that. And like a child of their own, no one can tell them it can be improved.
Then along comes this schome who has a hard time putting a battery in a remote, who swaps out a fuse and all of a sudden, maybe they didn't have to do this, or that, to get better sound. I get it.
I might argue, while agreeing with you in context, that hearing is a 'sensory function' , perception is what a particular individual experiences. Let's take the 'fuse' improvement hypothesis for argument's sake. Generalizing that those who do not change the fuse, or power cord, are 'missing out' is a huge assumption. When 'you' in fact may be the one missing out from what someone else hears using a 50c fuse. You can't get around perception. Without it, our brain would not be able to 'fill in' small details in a variety of stimuli. Obviously, the condition of our sensory organs is also a player. There are so many factors related to our acoustic environment, personal physical condition, like an individual's perception, that changing a fuse is a drop in the proverbial bucket when it comes to hearing an improvement that can be shared. Notice I said, an 'improvement'. I will not argue that there can be a 'difference', no matter how small, even measurable. I will go one step further, if the only variable is listening the next day, in the same exact physical environment one would perceive a difference just based on their personal condition, like brain chemistry at that time. IF you want to argue, leaving everything the same except either the fuse or power cord, etc., will also provide a noticeable difference of the same magnitude, then that's fine. I can argue about the physical world, but never about perception. If you hear it, and you like it, that's all that counts. All the rationale and explanation need not take that from you. I know I am not disagreeing with the Flat Earth Society here. Whether it's an opinion, or a perception, it is always our own.
To the "no one has ever lost an amp comment, my friends at Conrad-Johnson tell me that when an amp comes in for service, aftermarket fuses are the first thing they check. Inevitably, the AM Fuse not responding correctly is the cause of the problem. So... use at your own risk. That said, I have SR Blacks in my C-J amps and liked the difference. The old C-J supplied fuses had been in there for many years so just the contact cleaning process in replacement may have been the difference. And, I only use them for the mains, the other internal fuses, B+ supply, etc I would never change to aftermarket.
While an amusing anecdote that Conrad Johnson story doesn’t actually mean anything. The same thing can happen for regular stock fuses. It’s because either the amp is not conservatively rated or because the customer makes a mistake. it certainly can’t be true that the AM fuses is always the problem. Of it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. I'm a ten minute walk from Conrad Johnson as we speak. If you like I can over and straighten them out.
dalebeshansky "I might argue, while agreeing with you in context, that hearing is a ’sensory function’ , perception is what a particular individual experiences.
Let’s take the ’fuse’ improvement hypothesis for argument’s sake. Generalizing that those who do not change the fuse, or power cord, are ’missing out’ is a huge assumption. When ’you’ in fact may be the one missing out from what someone else hears using a 50c fuse."
>>>>You might convince yourself or some people with that argument but not me. Once you experience it yourself and experience cable directionality yourself there’s no going back. I mean, unless you wish to be in denial.
"You can’t get around perception. Without it, our brain would not be able to ’fill in’ small details in a variety of stimuli. Obviously, the condition of our sensory organs is also a player."
>>>>>I agree. That’s why I say perception of sound is the same thing as hearing. They are not two different things. And of course the brain is involved with the perception. That’s not exactly news.
"There are so many factors related to our acoustic environment, personal physical condition, like an individual’s perception, that changing a fuse is a drop in the proverbial bucket when it comes to hearing an improvement that can be shared. Notice I said, an ’improvement’. I will not argue that there can be a ’difference’, no matter how small, even measurable."
>>>>>Once you experience it yourself you will/should change your expectation to account for your new perception, no? Unless you experience it yourself you’re just guessing.
"I will go one step further, if the only variable is listening the next day, in the same exact physical environment one would perceive a difference just based on their personal condition, like brain chemistry at that time."
>>>>I disagree. The weather, time of day, and things you might have done to your system either on purpose or accidentally as well as other variables must be accounted for. There is also break in and warm up to consider. It is certainly not black and white as you suggest.
"IF you want to argue, leaving everything the same except either the fuse or power cord, etc., will also provide a noticeable difference of the same magnitude, then that’s fine."
>>>>I’m not saying any such thing. You are.
"I can argue about the physical world, but never about perception. If you hear it, and you like it, that’s all that counts. All the rationale and explanation need not take that from you. I know I am not disagreeing with the Flat Earth Society here. Whether it’s an opinion, or a perception, it is always our own."
>>>>I’m not talking about personal preference or some vague thing that can be interpreted any old way. I’m taking about something that is physical and that is very noticeable. I’m talking about physical reality, not some philosophical argument about reality or perception. That doesn’t mean some people will not hear it. But most people do hear it. Thousands of people have heard it. That’s the preponderance of the evidence in this case. You can throw away the negative results. They're outliers. Case closed.
>>>>I disagree. The weather, time of day, and things you might have done to your system either on purpose or accidentally as well as other variables must be accounted for. There is also break in and warm up to consider. It is certainly not black and white as you suggest.
What I meant is if you could hold or control all the variables except the human one, there could be a noticeable change from one day to the next. Sorry, if I was not more clear.
But If you know in your own mind it really works, then there is nothing to argue about.
But generalizations like ’most’ and ’thousands of people’ means nothing to me without empirical evidence. If highly regarded artists as well as audio and recording engineers were also to support it, I would certainly consider it more seriously.
There are scientific studies done that prove differences between reality and perception. It is not philosophical.
BINGO! 🎉 But not from guessing, from experience. See the difference? 😀
Of course. Did I ever deny you or anyone else experienced a difference? Never. As far as a universal improvement I am very skeptical.
I’ve played with power cords, heard differences, rarely, and never what I would call significant.
What I have ’seen’ was in the pre-HDMI days, between 2 different component cables and the resultant picture on a display. Significant, close, noticeable to me. But there are enough variables like different components which is why I did NOT see a difference on another display. But it was always repeatable on the first display. That’s why one has to be careful about generalizing their own experience.
That’s weird. I didn’t even mention quantum mechanics. Yet kroost_emoji has some ridiculous argument involving quantum mechanics. My arguments, today at least, involve physical reality, physics and human perception. Audio forums can be so unpredictable! Please don’t put words in my mouth. Your name dropping is duly noted.
confucius say man who argue with himself has captive audience.
@geoffkait - I totally understand and agree. I have read other posts in other threads from this particular user and I am constantly asking myself "what the @#$#$ is he talking about?!?!". Hence my assumption that this is just a troll looking to incite argument - trying to find any sort of technical hole in someone’s comments to dig into and expand. I invite all others just to politely ignore these and not chase down a rabbit hole after any sort of convoluted and confusing theory -- without personally attacking any character of any user.
Since the history of mankind, starting with the pictures on the walls of the caves, the hieroglyphics of the ancient Egyptians, only 10 people have been concerned with the directionality of wire. This would be geoff and two other people. Most won't see the humor of me working in that Geoff has a penchant for calling others schizophrenic. C'est la vie. In any case, I have admired Geoff for being the Johnny Appleseed of directionality, actually, kind of a Davey Crocket when you think about it. Let's just say it, going where no man has gone before.
By the way, Jitter. When I used the word schizophrenia in a post recently it was after some very bad, ill tempered person who shall remain nameless called me a schizophrenic, not in jest. I (on the other hand) was joking, when I used the word, since my little ditty - that apparently went over your head, Jitter - was a twist of the famous Bill Murray line from the romantic comedy or whatever, What About Bob? "Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I." 😀😀
That that would be good for me because I can't keep up with all of your emails. I think earlier in the discussion someone mentioned all this discussion for a $25 fuse for my $ 9000 amp. Lol. When I receive the new fuse I will let you know my opinion on sound. Until then maybe we can go on a cease fire for this topic. Thx
It might seem harsh to say, but I am beginning to believe aftermarket fuses are not for everyone. The more feelings of angst and intrepidation that arise in the mind of the curious audiophile lower the probability that the whole enterprise will have a positive outcome. Or maybe it’s just a feeling I get on the back of my neck. 😳 All the expressions of regret and suspicion and skepticism don’t help change my premonition or precognition. 😀It's a little too much sometimes like a shaggy dog story. 🐩
The OP end up going with PADIS fuses, let’s give it a rest until he reports back ....no pressure right :-)
@nonoise ~ thank you for your recommendation in No. 3 response. I still can't believe it took additional 179 threads to put this discussion to rest..phew!
It just dawned on me that the OP's going to swap out a fuse in his amp and my mentioning of the 2-3db difference was after replacing the 4 fuses in my SACD player. It was just out of boredom that I reversed them and got the results.
It was in the heat of this "discussion" that @georgehifi stated his doubt about a difference in direction making that much difference with a mains fuse. Just wanted to clear that up lest another can 'o worms opens when the OP reports back. When I changed the fuse in my integrated, it went in in the correct direction. The sound improved so there was no need to reverse it.
Just for the record, it was krosst_emoji and Al who first commented that 2-3 dB was impossible, as I recall impossible was Al’s word. Whereas krosst indicated no phenomenon in the universe could account for such a change. Credit where credit is due. 😛
It has been pointed out by Atmasphere in a number of past threads that our hearing mechanisms use certain higher order odd harmonics as loudness cues. And also that our hearing mechanisms are extremely sensitive to even trace amounts of those harmonics. Therefore I suppose it is at least slightly conceivable that very small changes in distortion that might result in some unexplainable manner from changing the direction of fuses that are used in series with the DC voltages that power the active stages of an SACD player (as appears to have been the case in the situation Nonoise described) could be subjectively perceived as a change in loudness. Although even that possibility seems unlikely (to me, at least), especially in the case of a line-level component as opposed to a power amplifier.
However I will stake my reputation, such as it may be, on the absolute impossibility of a 2 or 3 db volume difference resulting from reversing the direction of any fuse in an audio component, assuming at least that the contacts are not severely corroded and that the fuse is not on the verge of failing. And assuming equal warmup states of the equipment.
As I have said and acknowledged in many past threads, science and engineering can neither predict nor explain a lot about what we hear or don’t hear from our systems. But it can certainly predict some things. If it couldn’t, the quality reproduction of music we all enjoy would not exist.
@almarg I see what you're getting at. Lest anyone else (other than Al, who knows) confuse the matter of in-room SPLs and volume setting, what I was referring to is volume settings. How that translates to in room SPLs, I can't say. What I can say is now there's too much pressure on my ears using the older volume setting.
It's not an in-your-face aggressive experience (i.e. brightness, glare, etc.), just too much ear pressure. I even feel it more with my body, like sitting too close at a concert (oh, the foggy memories). The images seem too large as well.
Am I hearing too much? That would be silly for me to say but my comfort level is now at the lower setting.
One final question....I still don't have the fuse but I have to ask before I do get it. I am not a true audiophile....I just enjoy great music. I have around $60k invested in my two channel system so I think it already sounds great. What is it that I will hear assuming that the Padis fuse works? i.e. will the cymbals on the drums be more pronounced? Will the bass be deeper? Will the artists voice be more clear? I just can't imagine given my system. etc.
@willgolf, How to sum it up.... Yes to what you just asked. That, and you can go back and read my other posts on it. From your question, I feel like all the air just went out of this thread.
Okay, I just ordered one of the PADIS fuses from ebay. I'm going to see how it compares to the out-of-the-box Futurech retail fuse. When looking at the PADIS, I could not specifically tell if it was the exact same thing as the Furutech fuse. There was a mention in one description that the PADIS has a silver element. The standard Furutech has a copper alloy element. Both have rhodium plated end-caps. I could not find anything that said the PADIS has the special damping filler (anti-resonance) that the Furutech has. The PADIS are so cheap, it's worth it just for an experiment. It may be 2-3 weeks until I can provide documented results, depending on how fast it gets from Germany to the USA west coast.
I just scoured the net and came across some older posts on other sites and the only difference I read was that one is cryo'd and the other is not. It wasn't clear which one is. There's no mention of silver used on the box the PADIS comes in. Just high purity copper, OFC, non-magnetic metals and rhodium. Time will tell.
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