All the laws of electronics? Georgie, didn’t you get the memo? Laws are meant to be broken. Like a broken record. 😀
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Uh, that can’t be right. No one has ever lost an amp or burned their house down due to an aftermarket fuse. Not in 20 years. Not to mention stock off the shelf fuses like Littelfuse fail as often as aftermarket fuses. Besides, some aftermarket fuses like Isoclean have always been UL approved. Didn’t you get the memo?
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The reason is actually pretty obvious. Amplifier manufacturers are either unaware and oblivious to the development of audiophile fuses or they ignore it, most likely the former. Even though audiophile fuses have been around like forever. Amp manufacturers just never got the memo. Case solved.🕵🏻
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Exactly! Besides from what I can tell audiophiles are very particular about which fuses they want. So it's a lose/lose situation for the manufacturer. Ditto audiophile power cords. Why should audiophiles trust the ears of the manufacturers? Now, if the manufacturer is smart, which he probably isn't, he would use an aftermarket fuse in his amps for the shows. You know, to get a leg up on the competition. |
Leave it to Jitter. Leave it to Jitter to try to put a positive spin on id-no-wance.
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In response to the previous post I would point out that the argument that Aftermarket Fuses are too high for manufacturers to use them is a little weak inasmuch as 80% of all Aftermarket Fuses actually cost $50 or less, according to the list of available Aftermarket Fuses on The Cable Company web site. And many Aftermarket Fuses can be bought at lower prices when they go on sale. For example the SR Black fuse, certainly not one of the less expensive fuses, was offered recently at the price of three for the price of two. So, in fact, amp manufacturers can’t really use the cost argument, assuming they even know about aftermarket fuses which, as I’ve already intimated, they probably don’t.
There are really only two possibilities. The high end amp manufacturers are totally in the dark and blissfully unaware, as it were, regarding the whole fuse thing, including directionality, or they can’t hear. I bet they don’t even put the inexpensive stock fuses in the correct direction. At least not on purpose.
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Huh? It’s basic economics. Obviously manufactures don’t want to keep product on the shelf. This is especially true in hard times like uh, now. Especially for esoteric and exotic products, like audiophile fuses, who knows what the lifetime is for many esoteric products? A year? A month? What every small manufacturer wants, hopes for, is a BIG ORDER. If Isoclean received a big order they would find a way to meet it, no doubt about it. It would be worked out in advance. If SR got a BIG ORDER they would find a way to meet it. It wouldn’t happen overnight, obviously. It’s called planning. Plan for the future! Taking the easy way out is not really the best course of action. That's so Mid Fi. Strategic planning is the only way to go for High End results.
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kosst_amojan
What do I use in my Pass F5 clone? Bussmann. They sell them in 6 packs at AutoZone. They work great. They blow very consistently if I fumble with the power switch wrong. $50 for a fuse? I don’t think so!
Good for you! What direction do you put them in? Just curious. Maybe one day you'll be able to afford a real Pass F5. Fingers krosst.
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You have my absolute guarantee I can make fancy fuses faster than a high end manufacturer can crank out amplifiers. |
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wolf_garcia
"Special" fuses have no actual design benefits or any logical explanation anywhere as to how they improve anything (thousands of comments…still no "how or why")...
I guess it’s not true what they say, that if you repeat something often enough eventually it’ll sink in. The advantages of aftermarket fuses over stock fuses have been described ad nauseum all over the place on the various fuse threads right here on Audiogon for the last ten years. It’s not rocket science. Nothing to get uptight about. Nothing to get your panties in a twist about. 👙
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bigkidz
HA HA HA. Why don’t they use better resistors, capacitors, chokes or transformers, chassis metal thickness, feet, etc. Cost to price ratio? I think those would make bigger improvements than some fuses IMO. Why not just use a copper bar?
Why don’t they? Because they the amp designers are so focused, hyper focused, on circuits they ignore everything else. Besides as I already intimated they can’t hear anyway so what’s the difference? If they could they certainly wouldn’t bolt transformers directly to the chassis or bolt the printed circuit boards directly to the chassis. I know what you're thinking - "But everybody does that!"
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brf
To answer the OP’s question, all one needs to do is read the responses. Over half of audiophiles do not believe that fuses and power cords make a sonic improvement. Since fuses and power cords do not require a modification to the existing equipment, manufactures choose not to include and charge for "upgraded" fuses and PC and lets the end user decide for themselves.
>>>>Nope that can’t be right. Think of the amp as a black box. The primary concern is or should be the sound. The designers are free to get then best sound they are capable of anyway they can. Don’t worry, no one is going to open up the amp and look inside, to check on the fuse, the capacitors, the circuit. It does not (rpt not) matter one iota if audiophiles believe in fuses or power cords, or capacitors or wire directionality or some fancy circuit or another. High end electronics is competitive so once you get past the cosmetics the real issue is the sound. If they don’t try to win best of show 👑 they aren’t really high end, if you know what I mean. As I said before at least twice, the reason most high end amp designers don’t use high end fuses is simply because they’re unware of them. Sadly. 😪 Even the ones who *are* aware of them, you know, like the ones who hang out here, don’t believe in them. You can lead a mule to water but you can't make him drink.🐪
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Just as I predicted. Oh, joy! Quack, quack! 🐤 🐤 🐤 🐤 |
Why is the sky blue, daddy? It just is, son.
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Full disclosure: my previous system’s World’s Most Modded Oppo 103 employed a copper bypass in lieu of fuse. The Modded Woo Audio Headphone amp with ’42 Tung Sol rectifier tube and two '52 Sylvania Bad Boys (2 Herbies tube dampers each!) employed the Audio Magic Nano fuse, the correct direction determined by listening, no biggie.
These days I eschew fuses altogether. I do not use house AC power and there’s no place for a fuse even if I wanted to use one. No more power cords, no speaker cables and no interconnects and no digital cable. No more big capacitors, no more big honking transformers. No room acoustics issues to suffer. No more teacher’s dirty looks. If thy eye offend three pluck it out! 👁
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It’s possible someone somewhere prefers the stock off the shelf fuse to some aftermarket fuse, though unlikely. It could happen if the aftermarket fuse was a relatively ineffective one. Not all aftermarket fuses are created equal. I could also happen if the stock fuse was accidentally in the correct direction and the aftermarket fuse was inserted in the wrong direction. Even that is rather unlikely. I suspect it’s possible the reverse expectation bias could explain why some audiophiles get bad results. You know, they psych themselves out. 😳 I mean, how would they be able to explain it to the other naysayers? Hel-loo!
There could possibly be a tie if the system used for the test was sub-standard or had errors in it, e.g, out of phase or out of absolute polarity) such that the differences were not audible. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking - but my system is fabulous! Yeah, right. Finally, the hearing of the tester might not be all that he thinks it is. A lot of folks can’t hear anything above 8 kHz, for example, or are not able to pick up on subtle differences. Almost everyone who reported on the various fuse threads over the years has good results. A few reported they couldn’t hear it. C’est la vie as they say in Miami.
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That’s weird. Did he try them both ways? Just curious.
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I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
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costco_emoji
@geoffkait
Just as I expected. Smartass remarks. Absolutely zero wit or substance.
>>>>>Aw, shaddup! |
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Just when things were starting to get a little dull they put up new duckies on the shooting gallery. 🐤 🐤 🐤 🐤 🐤 |
Lots of things in this hobby are "impossible." Lots of things in this hobby defy explanation. Lots of things in this hobby appear to disobey the laws of physics. So what else is new? 😛
Just wait’ll you guys get a load of some stuff that’s really controversial. Tempers will flare.😡
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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Well, to be fair, I'm not sure I would characterize most of the naysayers' comments as intellectually sincere or even honest. Nothing like that. They just enjoy giving audiophiles a hard time. Nothing so lofty as any kind of intellectual argument, nothing like that. |
Well, as much as I hate to toot my own horn 🎺 I have been saying all along that because all (rpt all) wire is directional, not only are fuses directional but also resistors, capacitors, transformers, and obviously cables and power cords. Also, internal electronics wiring, internal speaker wiring, crossovers including wiring and you guessed it inductors and capacitors. Gee, what about house wiring? Mr. Bedini might have stumbled onto something. 😳 A major discovery in physics, indeed!
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crosst_emoji
@geoffkait
There you go again spouting meaningless platitudes. Nothing in this hobby defies the laws of physics. Plenty of people are skeptical of things that don’t actually exist. I like those people. I get worried when I’m around people hearing things that can’t possibly exist.
Calm down, it’s only an expression. But judging from your reaction 😡, an expression that actually has some meaning, you know, inasmuch as naysayers like yourself keep repeating the same mantra: this directionality phenomenon can’t possibly be real, it’s not possible and it disobeys all known laws of physics and electronics. You like people like yourself. 😡 😡 😡 12 Angry Men. 😀 |
While an amusing anecdote that Conrad Johnson story doesn’t actually mean anything. The same thing can happen for regular stock fuses. It’s because either the amp is not conservatively rated or because the customer makes a mistake. it certainly can’t be true that the AM fuses is always the problem. Of it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. I'm a ten minute walk from Conrad Johnson as we speak. If you like I can over and straighten them out.
Have a nice weekend 🌞 |
A modest proposal. I propose that hearing and perception are the same thing. There is no real reason to say they are something different. Hearing is a sensory perception just like vision. It's how we perceive realityThis is not to say there cannot be wide variations among even experienced audiophiles regarding hearing ability, experience in listening and so forth. But I think it's wrong to say perception of sound is something other than what we hear as if it's something undefinable or mysterious. Again this is not to say hearing is not complex or even sometimes mysterious. Heaven forbid! And I'm not discounting psychological effects from the whole listening equation, either, things like placebo effects, expectation bias, etc. Nor can we discount listeners' testimony regarding what they hear. It's unfortunate that naysayers frame positive results as some some of delusion.
Speaking of reality I also suggest that physics, strictly speaking, is not reality in the sense that physics as a science represents what we know, what we have discovered about physical reality. But physics as a science is incomplete, and continually growing. It would be rather presumptuous to assume something mysterious or puzzling MUST be inexplainable by physics. It's premuptuous to assume directionality of wire, disobeys some physical law or even theory. It may very well disagree with what many people assume is understood by science or physics.
From intro to Zen and the art of Debunkery:
Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics.
As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery.
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dalebeshansky
"I might argue, while agreeing with you in context, that hearing is a ’sensory function’ , perception is what a particular individual experiences.
Let’s take the ’fuse’ improvement hypothesis for argument’s sake.
Generalizing that those who do not change the fuse, or power cord, are ’missing out’ is a huge assumption. When ’you’ in fact may be the one missing out from what someone else hears using a 50c fuse."
>>>>You might convince yourself or some people with that argument but not me. Once you experience it yourself and experience cable directionality yourself there’s no going back. I mean, unless you wish to be in denial.
"You can’t get around perception. Without it, our brain would not be able to ’fill in’ small details in a variety of stimuli. Obviously, the condition of our sensory organs is also a player."
>>>>>I agree. That’s why I say perception of sound is the same thing as hearing. They are not two different things. And of course the brain is involved with the perception. That’s not exactly news.
"There are so many factors related to our acoustic environment, personal physical condition, like an individual’s perception, that changing a fuse is a drop in the proverbial bucket when it comes to hearing an improvement that can be shared. Notice I said, an ’improvement’. I will not argue that there can be a ’difference’, no matter how small, even measurable."
>>>>>Once you experience it yourself you will/should change your expectation to account for your new perception, no? Unless you experience it yourself you’re just guessing.
"I will go one step further, if the only variable is listening the next day, in the same exact physical environment one would perceive a difference just based on their personal condition, like brain chemistry at that time."
>>>>I disagree. The weather, time of day, and things you might have done to your system either on purpose or accidentally as well as other variables must be accounted for. There is also break in and warm up to consider. It is certainly not black and white as you suggest.
"IF you want to argue, leaving everything the same except either the fuse or power cord, etc., will also provide a noticeable difference of the same magnitude, then that’s fine."
>>>>I’m not saying any such thing. You are.
"I can argue about the physical world, but never about perception. If you hear it, and you like it, that’s all that counts. All the rationale and explanation need not take that from you. I know I am not disagreeing with the Flat Earth Society here. Whether it’s an opinion, or a perception, it is always our own."
>>>>I’m not talking about personal preference or some vague thing that can be interpreted any old way. I’m taking about something that is physical and that is very noticeable. I’m talking about physical reality, not some philosophical argument about reality or perception. That doesn’t mean some people will not hear it. But most people do hear it. Thousands of people have heard it. That’s the preponderance of the evidence in this case. You can throw away the negative results. They're outliers. Case closed.
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"But If you know in your own mind it really works, then there is nothing to argue about."
BINGO! 🎉 But not from guessing, from experience. See the difference? 😀 |
That’s weird. I didn’t even mention quantum mechanics. Yet kroost_emoji has some ridiculous argument involving quantum mechanics. My arguments, today at least, involve physical reality, physics and human perception. Audio forums can be so unpredictable! Please don’t put words in my mouth. Your name dropping is duly noted.
confucius say man who argue with himself has captive audience. |
Thanks. I’ve got my eyes on him. 👀 |
Davy, Davy Crockett, King of the Wild Frontier. Born on a mountaintop in Tennessee, killed him a bear when he was only three...yup, that's me!
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By the way, Jitter. When I used the word schizophrenia in a post recently it was after some very bad, ill tempered person who shall remain nameless called me a schizophrenic, not in jest. I (on the other hand) was joking, when I used the word, since my little ditty - that apparently went over your head, Jitter - was a twist of the famous Bill Murray line from the romantic comedy or whatever, What About Bob? "Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I." 😀😀
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Nope, it's losing entropy.
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It might seem harsh to say, but I am beginning to believe aftermarket fuses are not for everyone. The more feelings of angst and intrepidation that arise in the mind of the curious audiophile lower the probability that the whole enterprise will have a positive outcome. Or maybe it’s just a feeling I get on the back of my neck. 😳 All the expressions of regret and suspicion and skepticism don’t help change my premonition or precognition. 😀It's a little too much sometimes like a shaggy dog story. 🐩 |
Just for the record, it was krosst_emoji and Al who first commented that 2-3 dB was impossible, as I recall impossible was Al’s word. Whereas krosst indicated no phenomenon in the universe could account for such a change. Credit where credit is due. 😛
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krosst_emoji, I posted them already. Snooze you lose, cowboy. 💤
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Whoa! What? Hey, I was totally unaware you could have a $60K system and NOT be an audiophile. What’s up with that? Have I been living in a cave? 🙄 Well, now that I think about it, I have a $50 system and am definitely an audiophile. So I guess anything is possible. 😛
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nonoise
@almarg
I see what you’re getting at. Lest anyone else (other than Al, who knows) confuse the matter of in-room SPLs and volume setting, what I was referring to is volume settings. How that translates to in room SPLs, I can’t say. What I can say is now there’s too much pressure on my ears using the older volume setting.
Whewww! That was a close call. Thanks for the clarification. I’m pretty sure Al and krosst_emoji will find it in their hearts to sign up to that one. 🙄 |
Hey, look on the bright side. At least your motor didn't start running in reverse. Or did it? ⚙
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - old audiophile axiom 😀
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jetter
And lets not forget the little blind naysayer people following the little blind nonbeliever sheep. Geeze, and now there are little minds, little statesmen, and the philosophers and divines are, I’m guessing, kind of little too.
None so blind as those who will not see.
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.
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You obviously don’t understand testing, evidence or the fallibility of blind tests. Of course that’s nothing new. Pseudo skeptics have been threatening audiophiles with their silly blind tests for ages. |
Costco_emoji, let me know when they, whoever they are, can measure sweetness, air, glare, musicality, presence, music that gives you goosebumps, venue recognition. No need to reply, it's only a rhetorical statement. 😛 |
Uh, nobody ever said measurements are completely unrelated to the sound, silly. Geez, talk about a Strawman argument. Obviously some audio parameters are measureable - loudness, dynamic range, frequency response, channel separation, signal to noise ratio, total harmonic distortion are measurable. I'm just guessing, but this whole measurement obsession appears to be nothing more than a manifestation of the Mid Fi crowd.
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Whoa! What's wrong with you? Maybe time for a nice cold shower, eh? |
No offense auxinput but it appears to me you actually don’t understand the situation. If I have transgressed I’m sure the mods will let me know. It’s pretty pathetic when someone cannot make a declarative statement without someone repeatedly barging in with a barrage of insults. Which is in fact what is happening and what has been ongoing. I don’t believe I ever insulted what’s his name. In case you haven't noticed I tend to pick up a lot of uh, detractors, whatever on this forum and try to deal with them in the most humorous way possible. Of course anyone is free to not read these exchanges. No one is twisting anyone's arm. |
kosst_amojan
Not really. I’m just asking somebody to prove it and I get stuff like "Morphic fields" for answers.
>>>>A little heads up. If you’re going to stalk somebody you should figure out which thread you’re on first. I hate to be judgemental but it appears you have Morphic fields on the brain.
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Surely some more juice can be squeezed out of this lemon.:-) |
