kosst_amojan
The reason you can’t measure feet and springs is the same reason you can’t measure the difference a fuse makes. It’s because it makes no difference. Those who claim it does bare the obligation to prove it and so far there’s no proof. It’s just your mind telling you that expensive must sound better so you hear it.
>>>>Wow! Hey! I don’t think I’ve seen anyone make such a uh, bold statement in years. Maybe you should consider changing hobbies. I don’t think this particular hobby suits your temperament or scientific inclination. Didn’t you get the memo? There is no obligation for anyone to prove anything. |
Chances are good you just experienced another DMT flashback. You’re up awfully late for a school night, young man.
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bigkidz
Why not just use a copper bar?
Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any funnier.
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Paul McGowan is also a proponent of aftermarket fuses, to bring this full circle, and supplies some sort of fancy fuse in some of his gear.
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Huh? Five times higher than $30,000? Wow!! I did not know that.
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There’s nothing quite so funny as a conflicted skeptic. 😀 I see the humor in that. By the way your posts fits the definition of a diatribe, not mine. |
If an amplifier manufacturer can’t explain em who can?
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12 Angry Men redux
Juror #10: Don’t give me that. I’m sick and tired of facts! You can twist ’em anyway you like, you know what I mean?
Juror #10: Six to six... I’m telling you, some of you people in here must be out of your minds.
Juror #10: [interrupting] You didn’t prove it at all. What’re you talking about?
What we we have here, folks, is an excellent example of what I like to call the Backfire Effect. Huh?, you ask. The Backfire Effect is a psychological phenomenon produced in the mind when one’s beliefs or long held ideas are challenged or contradicted. What frequently happens is that the more the person is challenged and the more evidence is presented the more tightly he holds on to his beliefs. The Backfire Effect is not exactly the same thing as stubbornness or refusal to admit defeat but is a little more subtle.
Rational wiki
“”What should be evident from the studies on the backfire effect is you can never win an argument online. When you start to pull out facts and figures, hyperlinks and quotes, you are actually making the opponent feel as though they are even more sure of their position than before you started the debate. As they match your fervor, the same thing happens in your skull. The backfire effect pushes both of you deeper into your original beliefs.”
That’s why you will never see a died in the wool naysayer say, “Well, folks, I finally tried such and such and it actually made quite a nice change to the sound. I admit I was wrong.” 😛 They’d rather fight than switch. It’s a scene right out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
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List of banned words and phrases:
Evidence
Directionality
Morphic field
Aftermarket fuse
Clock
Fact
Information field
Explosion
Unconnected to the audio signal
Pseudo skeptic
Quantum
Proof
Crystal
😬
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I like bait. Bait is tasty. Mmmmmm...🐟. By the way you got the story wrong. The Japanese amp was an ultra low THD amp and was compared to a much higher THD tube amp and the tube amp was judged to be much better sounding. But that test had nothing to do with Julian Hirsch, although it’s a good case for the anti measurement crowd. 😀 I am not here to debate either.
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Of course it should be pointed out Julian Hirsch is the poster boy for people who cannot hear and who rant about measurements. No offense to anyone living or dead. Or undead. 🧟♂️ The reason (of course) is because amps that measure the same actually do not (rpt not) sound the same. Maybe to the average Joe, they do. There are too many variables. You want proof? OK. Take any amp, replace it’s fuse with a high end fuse, and it will sound better than an identical amp but one with the original stock fuse. Unless the person is deaf, naturally. Yet both amps measure exactly the same. You could do the same thing with better capacitors. Or better speaker cables. Follow?
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Whoa! What? Did he just say that? Julian Hirsch famously said all amps that measure the same sound about the same. Not different. Hel-loo!
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Been there, done that! Well, not me personally - especially now that I’m free from the house AC altogether 🕺 - but cryod Hubble outlets, cryod Romex, and cryod circuit breakers, even entire audiophile grade panels, were sold 15 years ago. You could also have had your Romex broken in on the Cable Cooker. Of course, the enterprising audiophile can do all these things himself today. Hel-loo! Speaking of which, anybody cryo his high end fuses? I kinda doubt the manufacturers have the time or inclination.
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There are actually some completely legitimate reasons that could explain why you didn’t have luck with the new DAC. So I wouldn’t give up quite yet. It’s a lot like aftermarket fuses, or cables or anything, there are reasons why someone might not get the results he was looking for. Hey, look on the bright side. At least the new super duper DAC didn’t make the sound worse. 😛
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You have two ears and one mouth for a reason, Wolfie. It’s already been explained. You musta missed it when you were jibber jabbing. So, now the explanation has to be from a manufacturer? Not just any old explanation will do for you guys, anymore. You’re SO sophisticated! |
Measurable changes? Huh? Spare me! Nobody measures audio feet. Especially not you. But just for grins, how would you measure the difference between carbon fiber feet and ceramic feet? And between ordinary steel springs and cryogenically treated steel springs? The difference between cones points down and cones points up?
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I’m pretty sure it’s just a bad case of audio nervosa. You can get it from obsessive compulsive behaviors such as participation in the Blowtorch thread on DIY a little bit too much. 😡 Take two placebos and see me in the morning.
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Look, it’s really the same thing as the Dunking Chair. The Dunking Chair was used to find out if the suspected witch really was a witch. 🧙🏻♀️If she died in the Dunking Chair she couldn’t have been a real witch, since a real witch would have been able to save herself. Of course nobody survived the Dunking Chair. There was a hitch. Here we have naysayers and pseudo skeptics who either can’t hear differences between fuses or won’t try, claiming the whole thing’s a fraud. Basically claiming it’s witchcraft. This is why the naysayers’ argument comes down to superstition, just like the witch hunters of Salem, Mass.
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kosst_amogan
I’ve made this point before, but I’ll make it again. Anything that can be heard can be measured. I don’t understand why some of you think that there are some characteristics in audio that don’t have a measurement signature, but that isn’t the case. You people attribute qualities to a fuse that most definitely would reveal themselves through a spectrum analyzer. But they don’t. One can only conclude that’s because it makes no difference at all.
>>>>>Excellent example of a Strawman Argument. I.e., logical fallacy. Most who try them hear them. Capish? Actually, fuses DO reveal themselves through a spectrum analyzer. You yourself claim anything that can be heard can be measured. Hel-loo! Same for cables. Fuse and cable directionality shows up on a spectrum analyzer, too. You’re grasping at straws. |
pbnaudio
Perhaps because we want the protection a properly designed and manufactured fuse provides, you know the ones by Bussman or Littlefuse (sic) for an example.
>>>>>Wow! Another manufacturer checks in.
“We don’t need any of your stinking tweaks!”
“We want customers to hear the pure sound of our products.”
“We don’t fall for snake oil. Only solid engineering here.”
😛
Idle question: Why not simply improve a “properly designed and manufactured fuse?” Hel-loo!
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Wow! I think I see what the problem is. Some people are confusing real skepticism, you know the spirit of curiosity and investigation - the backbone of all scientific endeavor - with simply being overly suspicious or even superstitious. I suspect these same people are afraid that cameras can take their souls. 👻 just remember, the only thing you have to fear is fear itself. 😳 |
Almarg wrote,
”Does all of that sound at least somewhat implausible, even though Ralph’s claims are based on actual experiments? It would not be unreasonable to think so, IMO. However, I feel safe in saying that to most of those having an extensive background in electronic design (such as myself) the notion that a fuse would have **inherent** directional characteristics to an audibly significant degree is substantially MORE implausible.”
>>>>>I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears that having a background in electronic design like Ralph and Al actually does not allow them to make informed judgements regarding fuse directionality. You know, in light of the fact that they ARE directional. It appears they are in denial. Oh, well. Whereas my background in physics and materials science does allow ME to make such judgments. We’ve already debunked the infamous fuse holder pseudo argument, gents. Let’s move this thing along, shall we?
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Mapman
They are also not complicated devices and as difficult to understand as some vendors make them. Its reasonable to expect that some portion of the discussion about them is just noise but hey only one way to find out if one actually cares. Personally, I’d focus on making sure my fuse is good quality and in good working order and look pretty much anywhere else (except Machina Dynamica for example) for things that will make clear significant differences in sound quality.
>>>>>I’m giving serious consideration to promoting you to associate shill as you demonstrate that very special skill I’m looking for - pretending to loathe and mock Machina Dynamica yet giving it a shout out at every opportunity. But not too much, otherwise folks will catch onto the scam. 😛 Keep up the good work.
“It’s too late for old folks like me to change.” - Mapman
Vendors don’t make fuses difficult to understand. You do, grasshopper. Look within.
geoff kait
audio insider
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Mapman wrote,
”People will think and do what they will and are not likely to change, especially the older folks like me.”
Can I quote you on that? 😀 Next to, “Only quote facts,” yours is my favorite.
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Frankly, and I certainly have no animosity towards anyone, nor intend any disrespect, but I disregard with prejudice what ANY pseudo skeptic, naysayer or Crusader Rabbit presents as evidence or proof for any controversial tweak, including fuses, fuse directionality, wire directionality, etc. Who cares? Anybody can dream up some bizarre case they think will turn the tide. It’s actually not (rpt not) up for debate. Case closed. Like the mind of Crusader Rabbit. 🐇
The whole idea that rotating the fuse improves the sound, and is therefore the real reason audiophiles hear improvements when flipping fuses, is preposterous on its face, anyway. Because the odds are 50-50 that the sound would be *degraded* by rotating the fuse. Besides, if someone can’t hear the difference in fuses or in fuse direction, I certainly don’t believe they can hear fuse rotation. It doesn’t make sense. Judge Judy says if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. Furthermore, we already know that fuses measure according with the direction they are oriented in. Case closed. If you can’t hear that’s your problem. Better get it checked out.
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The ONLY way we have of observing reality, of perceiving the world around us, is through the senses. That’s why we have eyes and ears. To see the world and hear what is there. For Early Man hearing was absolutely critical for his survival, what with Sabre Tooth Tigers and other predators lurking about. 🐅 Mathematics would have been unable to save Early Man from tigers and bears. Fortunately, Early Man was endowed with a direction, distance and speed calculator in his head for calculus, integration - for survival. Squirrels, by contrast, are not so endowed. 🐿 That’s why they frequently become roadkill. We can thank evolution for our keen sense of hearing, which is critical for figuring out what works and what doesn’t, and which direction to pursue. Even the direction of fuses. Tee, hee
Music soothes the savage breast. When it’s not music, it’s just irritating.
An an ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - Old audiophile axiom
The emperor has no clothes. - Audiophile axiom
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Mapman, sadly, the mildly interesting theory of the flakey fuse holder was debunked. Didn’t you get the memo? 😳 Your excellent use of name dropping notwithstanding.
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Please note I didn’t say he wasn’t a good guy. But he said he has no idea how these fancy fuses work. I’m not the one saying it, he is. So, how can he design a fuse? Doesn’t make sense. As I said previously, he should have just sprung for the HiFi Tuning fuses and be done with it. They were the ones that set him back on his heels, for crying out loud. They were the ones that he described as astonishing. He won’t do better than that. Hel-loo! By his own admisssion, unless he was keeping it under his vest, he doesn’t know why aftermarket fuses sound so good.
It’s not clear that circuit breakers are superior to the new wave of audiophile fuses, either. Although they are probably better than ordinary stock fuses.
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What is even more astonishing is that he did not immediately start using those German HiFi Tuning fuses in his own amps. I mean, what do you have to do, hit someone over the head? The name of which, HiFi Tuning, he could not even remember in the video. Give me a break! Note: HiFi Tuning fuses are not (rpt not) particularly expensive, you know, as far as aftermarket fuses go. What are they going for these days, 20 bucks? Whatever.
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Exactly! No high end amplifier companies use high end fuses. That’s what this thread is all about. I hate to judge too harshly or too quickly but could it be because they’re too cheap to use aftermarket fuses?
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Ahem, sorry, there was no explanation. He said he didn’t know why they worked. If a manufacturer doesn’t know how they work how can he possibly design one for his product? Hel-loo! What he actually said was he uses circuit breakers, not fuses. He was very brave to make the video. 🙄
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Mapman
Maybe fuse lovers should try the same fuses that the experts choose to use when designing their gear?
>>>>>Huh? That’s kind of the whole point of this thread. Most high end amp manufacturers do not (rpt not) use aftermarket fuses. Nor are they even aware of them. Nor are they even aware of wire directionality. Nor are most audiophiles. Hel-loo! On the other hand, it’s a free country. You are free to ignore it, you are free to use aftermarket fuses, you are free to use circuit breakers, you are even free to bypass the fuses. You are even free to change the fuse direction or to not change it. I bypassed the fuse on my Super Modded Oppo. Was that wrong? 🙄
definition of an Expert: Some guy in a cheap suit 50 miles from home.
another definition of Expert: Someone who use to be a drip under pressure.
I Bypassed the Fuse in my Hot Rod Oppo and Lived to tell About it.
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Maybe it’s just me but it’s a little alarming to watch an amp manufacturer try to explain high end fuses on camera. It’s probably a good thing the guy from NJ who asked him the question didn’t ask him to explain fuse directionality. 😀 Not to mention the guy from NJ probably didn’t install his fuse in the right direction, which would explain why he said his new fuse sounded a little too bright.
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What’s sad is they, like you, are ignorant of fuses. Obviously. Obsessively circuit oriented. It doesn’t take a weather man to know which way the wind blows. Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️
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OK, let’s get this thread back on track, people. Which is why high end amp manufacturers don’t employ audiophile grade fuses in their amps. The obvious reason is they aren’t aware of aftermarket fuses or ANY issues with fuses, including wire directionality, so why would they? It’s an audiophile thang. And even many audiophiles don’t subscribe to high end fuses, so why would amp manufacturers? Hel-loo? As I’ve opined before, amp manufactures are, generally speaking, obsessively “circuit oriented” and very conservative when it comes to audiophile concepts like fuses, or power cords or vibration control. Another possible reason high end amp manufacturers don’t use high end fuses is they don’t have the inclination or time to keep up with all the developments in audiophile fuses, even if they were aware of them - which they’re not. There is a new development in fuse technology about what, once a year? Plus the manufacturers would have to ascertain the correct fuse direction. That would be the minimum, and they don’t even do that for whatever stock fuse they use. So, most likely they are blissfully unaware.
Furthermore, if an amp manufacturer IS cognizant of aftermarket fuses, which he’s probably NOT, he SHOULD be aware of WHY the fuse is IMPORTANT, even CRITICAL, to the sound. Consequently, the minimum effort for an amp manufacturer should be to implement vibration control, RFI/EMI control, magnetic field control to the fuses as a matter of course.
“We don’t need tweaks.” - German high end amp manufacturer at CES circa 2000.
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Uh, are you SURE you’re in the right thread?
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If ya don’t know I ain’t goin’ to tell ya. It’s for me to know and you to find out.
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Costco, I see no reason for you to refer to me as God. Explosion proof? Maybe, but audiophile outlets and power cord plugs are still better sounding than hospital ones anyway. Just like audiophile fuses are better sounding than military ones. So who cares?
Have a nice hair day
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From a quick scan of military fuses it appears anyone can buy them from at least two sources, our old friends Littelfuse and Bussmann. I think the problem for audiophiles - aside from the obvious one, what they sound like - is that they are apparently all super fast blow fuses. If I’m not mistaken almost all aftermarket audiophile fuses are slow blow. |
I didn’t realize the military had so many audiophiles. 😬 Are the highest level fuses directional? Do they have military grade fuse holders, too? I will say I have tried and like very much the MIL SPEC Silver on copper Teflon wire from US Navy surplus. I also used to have power cord from US aircraft communications section. Someone needs to reverse engineer the military fuses obviously. On a sour note, this fuse thing sounds suspiciously like the old Hospital grade wall outlet fiasco. And Hospital grade power cord plug. They’re good, but not as good as audiophile grade wall outlets and plugs. The plugs are designed primarily not to pull out of the socket easily. The audiophile grade outlets *sound* better, and they also have great mechanical contact. Having written specifications for military communications equipment I’d opine the chances are good the MIL SPEC for fuses specifies reliability and shock resistance, things of that nature, but not sound quality. But Mil Spec tubes sound great! Final answer.
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Surely some more juice can be squeezed out of this lemon.:-) |
kosst_amojan
Not really. I’m just asking somebody to prove it and I get stuff like "Morphic fields" for answers.
>>>>A little heads up. If you’re going to stalk somebody you should figure out which thread you’re on first. I hate to be judgemental but it appears you have Morphic fields on the brain.
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No offense auxinput but it appears to me you actually don’t understand the situation. If I have transgressed I’m sure the mods will let me know. It’s pretty pathetic when someone cannot make a declarative statement without someone repeatedly barging in with a barrage of insults. Which is in fact what is happening and what has been ongoing. I don’t believe I ever insulted what’s his name. In case you haven't noticed I tend to pick up a lot of uh, detractors, whatever on this forum and try to deal with them in the most humorous way possible. Of course anyone is free to not read these exchanges. No one is twisting anyone's arm. |
Whoa! What's wrong with you? Maybe time for a nice cold shower, eh? |
Uh, nobody ever said measurements are completely unrelated to the sound, silly. Geez, talk about a Strawman argument. Obviously some audio parameters are measureable - loudness, dynamic range, frequency response, channel separation, signal to noise ratio, total harmonic distortion are measurable. I'm just guessing, but this whole measurement obsession appears to be nothing more than a manifestation of the Mid Fi crowd.
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Costco_emoji, let me know when they, whoever they are, can measure sweetness, air, glare, musicality, presence, music that gives you goosebumps, venue recognition. No need to reply, it's only a rhetorical statement. 😛 |
You obviously don’t understand testing, evidence or the fallibility of blind tests. Of course that’s nothing new. Pseudo skeptics have been threatening audiophiles with their silly blind tests for ages. |
jetter
And lets not forget the little blind naysayer people following the little blind nonbeliever sheep. Geeze, and now there are little minds, little statesmen, and the philosophers and divines are, I’m guessing, kind of little too.
None so blind as those who will not see.
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - old audiophile axiom 😀
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Hey, look on the bright side. At least your motor didn't start running in reverse. Or did it? ⚙
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