Why do so many members seem afraid of making an audio decision?
I mean it's a hobby sort of. It should be fun. If you cannot hear the difference between two components, cables, or tweaks, then you can't. It's ok not to. Honestly, I sometimes think that some mass hysteria hits the audio community over a new product that later doesn't pan out or some (big)scandal, and people get bent out of shape over it.
Here in Chicago and the surrounding suburbs I'm fortunate to have a pretty good slice of audio dealers plus having very different opinions on the subject. That I think is great. I may not agree with some dealers' tastes or recommendations but that's also ok. After doing this for a while, you learn from your mistakes and also get a handle on what you, yourself like without having to have someone else always telling you. What I have learned over decades; if I like something, I like something, and if I don't like it or hear it, or think it's an improvement, well I pretty much trust my own decision making. I come to Audiogon hopefully to learn from the more experienced enthusiasts about recent developments and about my own stuff.
some develop their own mental listening reference for decisions, and their own decision process. some prefer to rely on other’s opinions and trust their references. for some the process of investigation is work, or maybe not something they have the time (or opportunity) to do.
both are legit approaches.
personally one of the most satisfying parts of the hobby is system building decision making. just love the personal listening investigations.....and posting about it.
i went a couple years of reading reviews and getting recommendations for gear purchases and eventually 20 some years ago, found my own ear for things. it’s something one can learn.
The stuff costs a lot of money. It can make a mess of a room. Putting it to full use can drive other family members...not to mention neighbors...nuts. The magazines and websites that cater to the trade possess writers who are talented and convincing enough to make you think that your opinions...or shall we say your ears...are less than stellar. In other words, the pursuit isn't exactly guilt-free.
Then again, it ain't like a motorcycle. The worst that can happen to you is a bit of tinnitus, and a hernia from lugging the components around the room in order to find their perfect locales.
Having gone from a city once rich in audio retail (NYC) to Austin (which is pretty thin on the ground), many people cannot get the opportunity to audition equipment before they buy- let alone in their own systems. That of course is the ideal before plunking down your hard-earned.
The direct to consumer models, where home trial is offered, with some adjustment on returns/shipping costs borne by the buyer, is OK- I guess for smaller items- say a DAC-- it may not be a big deal. But, for larger items, turntables that require set up, cartridges- which are usually not returnable unless defective, people simply don't have the opportunity to assess for themselves.
Thus, the agonizing. I think people are better served by user input from those who have actual hands-on experience than by the legacy audio press. Obviously, no two systems and rooms are the same either. But a broad cross section of users of a specific piece of gear should give the reader a fairly good gauge of what the unit in question can do, what its weaknesses are, where the synergies lie.
Nothing wrong with that in my estimation. That is one of the values of a forum such as this.
Very much associated with inability to hear vast majority of components one may be contemplating purchasing. And then, even if you can, really need an audition to hear in your system, and then that audition may need to be longer term to fully discern sound qualities.
Add to that so many choices today.
And then, as our systems evolve and become more transparent, resolving we can hear minutiae formerly unheard, makes for more exacting process to choose the component that has perfect synergy with rest of system.
Along with above evolution comes evolving cost factors, price to play continues to rise, more money on table may create more anxiety.
No doubt competitiveness comes into play for some, in order to be considered expert one has to have best. Humans do love their hierarchies, and most like to be at top.
I'm sure others will have much to say on the whole subject of insecurities in this so called hobby.
Learning to listen is many many layered, the information at every level is contradictory, the investments are substantial, overall sound quality depends on the whole system, many step are counter intuitive, the benefits are frequently not fully realized until hundreds of hours of use, and many folks are not good with complex decision making to start with, at least until they have heard concrete improvements in sound quality as a result of their choices.
It goes on. Decision making in highly uncertain environments takes skill (function of prefrontal cortex) and years of experience really help.
This morning I balked @ buying the spring loaded "on sale" footers ($13.45/set of 4/free delivery) noted in a new/recent thread, but this afternoon I purchased my wife a $900 Elsa Peretti necklace without a flinch.
Iam also close to Chicago area, true OP we are bless to have many audio store here, Music Direct is also here.In my situation it took many years to learn this hobby,Many valid reasons why many audiophile don’t want to make decisions . In my case many yrs ago, I did not have funds , plus I need more experience before I can make those expensive decisions?Once I felt I have accumulated enough experience that’s when I started making big decisions in this hobby.Good thing about this hobby you can buy used and resell if you don’t like it.
One of the blessings of living in a large metropolis is having enough dedicated high-end audio outlets to actually be able to listen to components and systems -- to gain a sense of what is truly excellent, what you truly prefer among those excellent choices, and how much lucre you must be willing to part with to make you happy.
Then again, if you don't have reasonable access to several stores, it's perfectly okay to read the audiophile magazines, hang out on this website, and search out enough live music to be able to get a finger on your particular tastes. Go to a bar with a live act. Go to a C&W venue or the local symphony/chamber music society (if one exists). When you're at the bar, listen to the clink of glassware and people's voices. In other words, develop an ear.
Peer pressure can be an onerous thing to deal with. Learn to trust your ears. Seek out advice on what you’re unfamiliar with as to system/gear matching to avoid failure but not, ultimately, for listening pleasure. Keep separate the wheat from the chaff.
And even when auditioning, bear in mind that it will not end up sounding the same in your system when you get it home. By now you should be familiar with your system so be aware of that.
And finally, welcome advice but steer clear of someone else’s approval. Those that seek to impose themselves as the final arbiters of what is best for you are to be avoided. There’s something wrong with them.
I started as consumer. Played a musical instrument in the marching band and wanted to be up on the music scene. Would stack up a bunch of records and blast away. At one point I even moved the stereo into a walk in closet in my dorm room and would see how loud I could stand it while studying.
After college I became a salesman for a large electronics chain. As a salesman the goal is to sell what makes you the most money. A spiff is a cash bonus for selling one piece of gear over another. I was also an enthusiast and would constantly be evaluating for my own listening pleasure but also looking for ways to upsell to the more profitable products. I eventually moved to selling computers and finally got out of sales and joined the IT world.
What the heck does this have to do with the topic? I suspect everything. When a piece of wire costs more than my whole system, when people discuss measurements as the end all decision maker, when freezing something to near zero, springs, power conditioners that simply plug into some socket, digital converters, $1000s of dollars worth of network updates etc. I remember working at a shop that I could barely make rent and the lengths I would god to just to be able to eat.
Every manufacture, stereo shop, or advertiser wants to be able to pay the rent and eat. Every salesperson you meet makes something off the sale either directly or indirectly. Unless your mom owns the store you are a source of revenue so everything being said should be looked upon thru that lens. I do fear being bamboozled with every purchase. I personally look to minimize risk by exploring the budget end of the market instead of the boutique and probably am missing out on some options that could increase my enjoyment but then again one of my greatest pleasures in this hobby is is finding the hidden gem that actually makes a difference.
I think the hobby as a whole would be a lot better if we could start a co-op that would allow you to try gear out. Have it be run as a non profit supported by members who are enthusiasts. Everyone could just donate all that gear and accessories that’s stacked to side and if it ended up actually being claimed compensation would be awarded.
In my opinion not enough fear is being generated in this hobby and we the enthusiasts suffer.
I understand where you are coming from. But remember that is low fi to mid-fi.
Companies like Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Cardas… virtually all high end companies were not started as primarily money making enterprises… quite on the contrary, they were started by engineers absolutely passionate about sound reproduction. They hoped to make a living some day. Most nearly did not survive. I recommend reading about the history of ARC. The founder and his wife working from their house nearly lost everything when a vendor provided capacitors that exploded… he informed every single owner and fixed them (paying for shipping… everything) out of his own pocket. Mealy bankruping them… it was more important that his reputation remained untarnished and his customers trusted him than making money.
I worked with very closely the founder of a high tech company, Tom Brown… from Burr-Brown corporation for nearly 20 years. Literally working from his garage in the ‘50s created one of the most respected companies manufacturing Digital to Analog converters for the high end audio industry. A more humble and genial human you will never meet. The company always struggled with profitability… because he cared first about the products and his customers and employees.
Your stories are certainly true, but generally confined of low to mid-level stuff. I am sure a bunch of folks have tried to enter the cable market because low material cost to price. But, most get weeded out because in the long run companies like Transparent, Cardas, Audio Quest put so much money into Research and development they provide real value and more sophisticated sound.
As others have said here, we are hesitant because of the money involved and the cost of mistakes. This is supposed to be enjoyable, not a worry. You're supposed to love what you're doing, not agonize over the reality that perfection is unattainable.
What I suggest is that you go DIY as much as you can. You'll learn a lot more, and being "hands on" gives a vastly deeper sense of involvement. Instead of taking opinions of others, you get to make your own choices. You get to make it exactly the way you want it. You get to learn from your failures.
DIY is so much more fun I can't begin to tell you. And it's a ****LOT**** cheaper! How much do you lust after the Big Ticket loudspeakers at $50k or more? I see people agonize thinking that they HAVE to spend at least $30k, but are wincing every time they put gas in their car.
The Linkwitz LX521 is one of the very finest loudspeaker systems on the planet. And it's a system, not just a loudspeaker. That's because it has an active crossover. You can either go with analog or digital crossovers. It's a multi-amplified system, so you can build your own from class D modules, or choose from many multi-channel amps out there. The cabinet is not hard to build. And one of the most rewarding aspects is that it is something we mere mortals can afford! The most expensive element is the amplifier choice. For less than the cost of a used 2013 Nissan Leaf, you could have a truly hi-end loudspeaker system equal to or better than loudspeakers costing more than a new, top-end Tesla Model S. And the satisfaction you get with DIY cannot be matched by any purchase in a dealer showroom.
Even building a Bob Latino amp kit brings endless satisfaction.
Go DIY as much as you can and you will know happiness.
maybe this is why I buy 3 to 5 dollar vinyl records every week and I tell myself every 14 days that I would be better off with fewer 30 dollar records.
Take a 95 year old person to a diner and watch them peruse the 300-item menu. Then you will have the answer.
@chayroI haven't made it to 95, and I am thinking that I won't, but for those that have, I would think that being as how every meal may be the last, they want to make prudent choices.
@immatthewj- and like a person choosing their last meal, many audiophiles are trying to choose components as if it’s their last chance. The internet has allowed the audiophile to sift through literally hundreds of choices in every component category and price range and many people are paralyzed with fear of making the wrong choice as if it will be their last. I started a thread on this very subject a few months ago, pointing out how too many choices cause many to experience high stress levels. Just my opinion.
There’s an emphasis in this thread on ’learning,’ while I would as well stress the importance of unlearning. Depending on the breadth of information gathered through years a lot of what’s accumulated can set one on a course that may be more reflective of a paradigm or school of thought than an explorative approach. DIY in a range of areas can be helpful in this regard with an element of trial and error or "Alice down the rabbit hole" that’s very rewarding.
At the core of things it may be an anarchistic tendency to challenge the established and ask the ’why’ in addition to ’how;’ about perspective and a different vantage point and daring to turn your back on things that may have previously held meaning and importance. Sometimes, or even more often than not it’s a feeling of reverence to something or someone that in effect makes secondary your own thoughts on a matter, and yet at some point the realization may surface that it’s time to look elsewhere. Not necessarily because of thorough deduction on a specific matter coming to an opposing view, but simply because following the current has you asking too many questions on the why of it that one can’t not pause and step back for a moment.
For a while I found myself heading in a direction in PC audio very much lead on or affected by a general tendency in this field, but at a certain juncture I began to question that direction, through chance almost, that it started a process of me devolving in a sense in the opposite way and back to an outset of years earlier. Not because I needed to be in opposition per se, but because I challenged a stance trusting my very own abilities to analyze it with an open mind. There was no presupposed right or wrong, price or principle didn’t matter, and suddenly I found myself reading through threads almost a decade old. Where I revived them I was told to basically "get into the loop" of the new. Why, because it’s new?
If people tell you something is generally accepted as "the shit" in opposition to something else, test it out for yourself. Maybe you feel the variations are miniscule and mostly about ’different’ rather than ’better,’ and then why shell out thousands of $$ if you can avoid it and be just as happy, and maybe even more? What’s interesting is seeing how a particular field in audio reproduction (like accessories or diaphragm materials, and also computer audio) can be obsessed about to a degree where it’s seemingly about a segment of a leaf on a tree that keeps you from seeing the damn forest. Or a least that’s my assessment on the priority shown in some cases that completely throws me off and has me wondering where audio in any way fairly authentic to a live reference, on the whole, enters the picture.
I digress. Be a warrior, throw things up in the air, challenge the established - not least try to see the forest for the trees. At the end of the day have the guts to go you own way, all the while sucking up all the information you care to. I don’t mean to be disrespectful of the "experts" in a particular field in audio reproduction, on the contrary, but their expertise may not speak to where this or that individual is heading.
It depends on your objective. Is this a process for learning and experimentation where the process is your goal or do you want a high-end sound system soon… and spend most of your life listening to great systems and music.
The complexities involved with coming up a great system at a given investment level are huge and very time consuming to unravel. If you like bouncing around in solution space (like a ball in a pinball machine) rediscovering things already known and relishing it… go for it. But there are very well understood principles and guidelines to assess your own values, evaluate and match equipment to achieve the highest sound quality for the money. Most folks are not interested in making a challenging pursuit more difficult, but if it makes you happy, go for it.
Most folks learn about the principles of algebra, Newtonian physics and quantum physics instead of ignoring them and deriving them from first principles. But one can do it either way.
There are a couple of ways to go DIY. It's great fun to do your own engineering. You learn a great deal. But you can always let someone else do the engineering and you just build their design. You suggest that a DIY guy isn't going to have great sound and great music. Many experimenters do take time to get there, but you can build someone else's design and have true hi-end sound at a price we mere mortals can afford.
Perhaps you're one of those guys who buys his audio the same way he buys his luxury cars. Bully for you. Glad you can afford it. I've met plenty of guys who dropped $30k and more on a pair of speakers that 5 years later, they're trying to find a buyer for at 75% less.
But if you had built the Linkwitz LX521 system, you'd have your "forever" loudspeaker system at $6k or less, depending on the amp choice you made. You'd have a far superior system and money left over to put down on that next Tesla.
I am definitely not into throwing money at getting great sound… but great sound is what I am after… end of story. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours evaluating interconnects and cables. More evaluating components. I have also built some of my own speakers and speaker cables. But I found that carefully chosen components of all types, having professionals competing in the market place can exceed my meager attempts to reproduce their work.
I am not saying this can’t be fun.. an a great way to assemble a great sounding cost effective budget system. But for those wanting the best high end system they can afford are best served by learning by those that have gone before them. I have fifty years of pursuing the high end… always cost constrained, but with an increasing budget, and there are some known routes to get there.
It depends on your objective. Is this a process for learning and experimentation where the process is your goal or do you want a high-end sound system soon… and spend most of your life listening to great systems and music.
No, you presuppose there's a division, except one doesn't exclude the other. Moreover you're implying to know my/our objective, which, speaking for myself, you don't.
The complexities involved with coming up a great system at a given investment level are huge and very time consuming to unravel. If you like bouncing around in solution space (like a ball in a pinball machine) rediscovering things already known and relishing it… go for it.
I guess to someone pedantic about a normative approach the above sentiment is to be expected.
But there are very well understood principles and guidelines to assess your own values, evaluate and match equipment to achieve the highest sound quality for the money. Most folks are not interested in making a challenging pursuit more difficult, but if it makes you happy, go for it.
To you it seems cultivating audio reproduction is a daunting task to be thoroughly schooled by a more or less singular line of thought dictated by the "masters." To me it's more about the encouragement of embarking on an audio adventure and getting to navigate in it by yourself - both inspired, open-minded and discovering. I don't see how it's ever going to be wasted knowing how best to accommodate your own heading, but you would of course need to know of its possibility to begin with.
I am not saying this can’t be fun.. an a great way to assemble a great sounding cost effective budget system. But for those wanting the best high end system they can afford are best served by learning by those that have gone before them. I have fifty years of pursuing the high end… always cost constrained, but with an increasing budget, and there are some known routes to get there.
Well, my 40 years of experience have taught me excellence in sound reproduction first and foremost comes from proper implementation (and configuration), adhering to physics, perspective and a bunch of common sense - also and not least learning from others and knowing your live sound references. Pro segment/domestic ditto, new/used, DIY/preassembled, cheap/expensive, active/(passive), acoustic transformers/direct radiating - most of this (except passive config.) is incorporated in my setup, and yet to some it may be difficult to comprehend all of it can be housed under the same roof and in the same setup..
A lot of people are window shopping and like the interest a recommendations thread generates.
Many also seem to have a certain product in mind and become conflicted when alternates are mentioned because they are looking for confirmation of their choice.
Cost and lack of trustworthy reviews also come into play. So many reviews fail to capture how something sounds. Sad but true. They will say it sounds great but fail to mention any down sides or overall tonal balance that affects system matching.
Also living in the Chicago area has given me great opportunity for dealer and audio show visits over the years. If one is serious about sound, exposure is the only way find out what you like.
it's definitely a journey whether one likes it or not
so given we are talking about a hobby/pass-time here it's best we view this reality as a positive
being honest with yourself about whether you enjoy the process, the journey, or dread it, is quite important and one should alter one's approach accordingly
that said, as others have pointed out, listening and auditioning can't be short circuited
I thought that I would chime in and respond, and clarify myself about audio for me in general. What made me think of this was a private audio event I went to. A very relaxed listening event at a loft in an almost industrial, not the greatest part of the city. But when you entered the space, well turned out to be one of the nicest city spaces I had ever been in. It really was more of a party atmosphere; food, drink, with a decent size crowd there and the place was filled with high end Japanese gear from Luxman, Yamaha, Esoteric, etc. Even a Spectral setup with there sdr-4000. Here is the point about this event, the men and the women’s reactions to the equipment for the most part are quite different. A lot of the guys listened intently and would have a harder time committing to which equipment they preferred as opposed to the women who seem to choose almost immediately what they preferred and when asked why they liked something didn’t get into long boring(I think) explanations. "It sounds better", "more like music", "I just like it more". Much less wishy washyness.
I have come to the conclusion that you cannot listen to every piece of audio equipment out there in a way that will help one form a solid opinion of what is better or best. It’s a" fools errand" to think that you can that you can choose the best audio equipment, by constantly refining your choices down to that last, this is the one I will definately purchase choice, only to hear, read about something else that you now must listen to. Not to mention that many of the components are not locally available and you’re shipping equipment back and forth from all over the country in the hope of some audio nirvana, moment of truth you are hoping for occurs.
As I see it, I try to listen to as much audio in a realistic amount of geographic space as is reasonably possible; considering also things like ease of repair, return to a dealer, the ability to listen to my purchases may be compared to something newer out there in the comfort of a dealer or easy enough to try at home. The idea of being in this sort of constant frenetic mindset of "did I make the right or best choice" simply kills the fun and enjoyment of music. I work with what’s available to me and work with that. I had most of my audio either crap out or blowup or something in a very short span and it was a learning curve replacing everything but I did and I am done for now truly enjoy it. Hell, one of my favorite dealers in town recently replaced their long-time ref turntable with something new, and yes it is better in most every aspect, not mind altering (maybe for others) better, but better and I don’t care. I’m happy with what I have and will stick with it for "time to come".
Oh and I have built audio equipment myself including speakers that I have had and refined over literally decades. I even took a course in college, a 300 level physics course that had to do with advanced audio design(I was just looking at material I kept from that class) where we used software like Thiel & Small parameters before any retail software existed that the prof. created, did our own tests on driver specs to double check the public data published by manufacturing companies was accurate, network theory, etc. so to those who suggest building your own equipment...... I’m sure I missed a few things, points but I have to get back to work.
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