why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable

I would never have agreed to go back on the ’spend more/pray for good results" merry go round if I had not heard truly remarkable differences when the cables in question in place and not been fooled in the double-blind testing when they were not.

We’ve been trying to break the price higher--better results paradigm in half. Problem is, people don’t really expect to get better for a lower price and dealers and so on, generally HATE that kind of scenario.

EG, what if one, as a dealer or a manufacturer....has a customer upgraded to $20-30-40-80k in the costs of a loom, and something comes along that invalidates that decision, a decision which might be only a few months to a few years old?

The dealers want the new company dead.
The manufacturers want that company dead.
The magazines with their ad revenue want that company dead.
The existing ’in situ’ high end group..wants that company dead.

But they would all gladly promote the new ideals, if they could take the company, ideas, and profits away from the new company. It’s ok, great in fact, if they could eat the new...and stay on top.

There is not acceptance by the market end of the pond, instead there is utter rejection on all fronts. Customers rarely expect better for less, as well. They are wired to expect that better always costs more. Even the customer base walks away from a potentially better deal, aided by the views and positions of the market they deal with.

All the standard human responses to the threat of change.

the next point is that we’ve reached a brick wall in ’wire’ cable design. We’re going in circles, when in the given system, $200-500 cables are barely different to some audiophiles than a $20k cable.

Even if we give people a break (but really a break to the cable business) and say "not all can hear these subtle differences depending on system components and the ear/brain of the individual doing the listening", and so on. Even when we take that into account...we are clearly now going in circles with ’wire’.

Which illustrates a system gone stale. Nothing fundamentally new, or possible. An end game. The elephant in the ’wire/cable’ room. The fight between detail and screech in high end cable design (including power cords and fancy power centers, etc). You’ve hit the development wall. Congratulations. What are they going to do, guild the Lilly on another $10k power bar? When in the end run, there is not much left other than that. Infinity costs and infinity pricing... into the last 2-5% of perfection of a finalized technology. Nothing new there.

Time for something different running on a different track?

I always look for better for less.  That often comes from, with the exception of clothes and groceries, buying a pre-owned (yes used) product. 

A couple precepts, among others, keep me out of trouble...one is that I typically have a price I will not exceed.  Second is that I always consider and understand the definition of value: "quality divided by price = value." 

In other words for products of like quality (durability, performance, appearance, etc), the one with the lowest cost represents the best value.  Everybody understands that but many don't care....or don't need to care...or don't want to care.  

Wanting something badly and being able to purchase it doesn't change it's value relative to other products.  Nor does it make it a wise purchase when overpriced and of questionable performance.

dynaquest4

.... for products of like quality (durability, performance, appearance, etc), the one with the lowest cost represents the best value. Everybody understands that ...

No, everybody doesn't understand that, and not everyone accepts your definition of "value." It's certainly fine for you to adopt this as your personal definition of value, but it's a subjective assessment, and others will differ. 

Right, cleeds, I forgot to mention that there are consumers who  blindly (or is that double-blindly) use a product's price as a measure of the product's quality.  In which case, my equation would be invalid for them.

dynaquest4

... I forgot to mention that there are consumers who  blindly (or is that double-blindly) use a product's price as a measure of the product's quality.

Your definition of value: "products of like quality (durability, performance, appearance, etc), the one with the lowest cost represents the best value" is subjective and, frankly, simplistic. It omits other elements of a purchase that could be included in assessing value.

As Oscar Wilde opined, the definition of a cynic is one who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

cleeds....seems like you are just in a mood to argue.  I don't have the interest or time.  For almost all purchases, my equation is accurate.  End of my participation in this issue.

dynaquest4m

For almost all purchases, my equation is accurate.

Your equation is subjective. ["products of like quality (durability, performance, appearance, etc), the one with the lowest cost represents the best value" ] 

So naturally, some will agree with your equation, and some will not.

dynaquest:"I always look for better for less...I always consider and understand the definition of value: "quality divided by price = value."...In other words for products of like quality (durability, performance, appearance, etc), the one with the lowest cost represents the best value. Everybody understands that but many don't care....or don't need to care...or don't want to care.  

This is an unfortunate observation and equally unfortunate is cleeds retort to this mistaken and myopic view of the meaning of value and how it intersects with the marketplace and forms the basis for actual purchasing decisions by actual consumers in the real world marketplace of existing products. You're reasoning here is one formed by someone thinking about how they will pay their rent and food bill for the month and maybe how they can fund in some small way their retirement accounts but these are the simple evaluations made by those who are at the subsistence level of income or just above it recent surveys show that a huge percentage of you Americans cannot afford to pay an emergency $1000 USD expense such as a car repair that number your CNN reports is 69% cannot afford the repair and in todays' world a $1000 USD car repair is not especially unusual! For these consumers the definition of value offered by dynaquest is actually not far from what such a consumer should apply when making purchasing decisions because of what they can afford although I would say it is still an incomplete "equation" which is what I would expect from someone in this economic situation especially in your US. But if we are talking about the actual highend of audio which certainly would be considered by reasonable people to be a luxury product such an equation has no place because the cost to some people as calculated in reference to their actual income and net worth would be trivial or inconsequential so another calculation of value is applied completely. It is a mistake to firmly insist that all economic decisions made by everyone every day apply the same rigid and forcefully defined "equation" because it does not take in to account the variables described above and that drive the purchasing decisions made by those who's "equation" is not so strictly influenced by more routine factors such as rent, food etc.

Here now is clearthink using this forum to flaunt his economic status (as he sees it) and making assumptions about mine which, besides being none of his business, are wrong.  

The value concept applies regardless of the consumer....it is not about the consumer about the product.  It is a simple concept and need not be debated.  Unless debate is your only pastime.

"Here now is clearthink using this forum to flaunt his economic status (as he sees it) and making assumptions about mine which, besides being none of his business, are wrong.The value concept applies regardless of the consumer....it is not about the consumer about the product. It is a simple concept and need not be debated. Unless debate is your only pastime"
Dynaquest you are the master of debate in this forum you are always debating and then you try to end the conversation with an insult such as this if you read what I wrote I said NOTHING repeat NOTHING about my economic status and only explained the flaws in your reasoning about how to arrive at a meaningful "equation" to calculate the value of a consumer product which you naively insist is a equation that you can apply equally all of the time to all consumers in the actual marketplace of all real consumer items which of course ignores a large body of knowledge of established and researched economic and consumer theory and science of course you are free to believe that you have this apparently "universal rules" for your "universal equations" but you are simply wrong but I can understand your frustration in trying to justify your opinion and had you claimed it was only your opinion we would not have this discussion but instead you insist science and reason are on your side and it should be patently obvious to most that you are mistaken again remember that 69% of you Americans cannot afford a $1000USD car repair!

Establishing value is a subjective exercise. The only exception to this is when you're valuing a true commodity such as oil, natural gas, or gold. That's part of what makes those items a commodity.

Consider that many people think spending $2,000 on a disc player is absurd. Some people think spending $200 on a disc player is absurd. Some people think spending any amount on a disc player is absurd when streaming is an option. None of them are mistaken.

I’m slowly coming to another opinion on what forums are. It was obvious before but never so plainly as it is in some instances like this.

It appears to be about trying to get people to understand how informed logic works.

I’m enjoying a system has virtually no cables or power cords, not so much for the cost issue but the distortion and noise issue. Once you eliminate all the power cords, interconnects, speaker cables and fuses you realize how much distortion and noise all those things bring to the table. Of course, the cost savings of such a set-up is not something to be taken lightly. 😛

dynaquest4, just can't understand world doesn't revolve around you and any one individual???

If two products have like quality, durability, appearance and performance but one is more expensive than the other why is the cheaper one not the better value? This does not seem difficult to understand. 

What other parameters would one use to assess a products value compared to others? Again if as dynaquest4 stated they are of like quality, durability, appearance and performance.

@jmcmgrogan...thanks for the laughs!

If two products have like quality, durability, appearance and performance but one is more expensive than the other why is the cheaper one not the better value? This does not seem difficult to understand.

Because quality, durability, appearance and performance is SUBJECTIVE. 

If YOU found two products have like quality, durability, appearance and performance but one is more expensive than the other, then the cheaper one is  better value.

This does not seem difficult to understand.

If I audition two components in my system and like the sound of both equally, I like how they look, both have a reputation for being of high quality and durability. But component A is $300 more than Component B. Which one represents the better value? For what reason(other than potential re-sale value further down the road if I decide to sell) would I choose to spend the extra $300?

Thats basic money management 101. We all do it in our normal lives whether it’s shopping for automobiles, groceries, audio, whatever. 

chrshanl37:  I suspect part of my apparent inability to gain acceptance from some to my very simplistic (but logical and correct) price/quality/value relationship is that these guys know me from other forum threads and will (likely) disagree strongly with me regardless of what I present or opine.

Or it might be that if they accept there is a value relationship between quality and price, they might, then, have to accept that they have made some pretty questionable choices in audio accessories.

chrshanl37

If I audition two components in my system and like the sound of both equally, I like how they look, both have a reputation for being of high quality and durability. But component A is $300 more than Component B. Which one represents the better value? For what reason(other than potential re-sale value further down the road if I decide to sell) would I choose to spend the extra $300?

There could be any one of a number of reasons. For example, service before and after the sale may be important. Did the dealer offer guidance before the sale that might prevent "buyer’s remorse" or the churning of equipment? Does the dealer of one product offer onsite service that might speed response time and save shipping costs? Does one dealer offer free loaners, will he buy me lunch when I visit, do I pay for parking at his store or is it free? To attempt to reduce a value judgment to a rigid formula, e.g."products of like quality (durability, performance, appearance, etc), the one with the lowest cost represents the best value" is simplistic. Or conversely, were it as simplistic as this poster absolutely insists, more of us would be drinking the same beer, using the same amplifiers and buying the same dishwashers. Attempts to reduce human behavior to rigid formulas are sure to disappoint. A formula is no better than a guideline, a "rule of thumb."

In this instance, we have an argumentative participant. Note that he wrote earlier:

for almost all purchases, my equation is accurate. End of my participation in this issue.

Now he’s saying:

I suspect part of my apparent inability to gain acceptance from some ... is that these guys know me from other forum threads

This thread is: " why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable?" The answer is: because they have decided that it is a good value for them. And of course, "expensive," as with "value," is subjective.

Again....muddled point.  Service after the sale, lunch, warranty, free loaner, etc. are all part of the "quality" component of the equation.  Just like discount, kickback, freebies, etc. would all be part of the price component.

A 2018 Audi without warranty is not the same quality product as an identical car with one. 

I'm telling you, the reason they are making it so complex (when it isn't) is because they must find a reason to disagree.

Since dynaquest4 mentioned in his post “pre-owned” let’s just suppose one of the components was being offered from a local dealer and it comes with a 90 day return or a one year warranty or some other service. Within that scenario the components would no longer be considered of “like” quality and reliability that dynaquest4 mentioned in his basic formula.

I do agree with your statement that “they have decided that it is a good value to them” in which case the basic formula of appearance/performance/quality/reliability still applies regardless of cost to that individual. What does it matter what someone else thinks? 

In other words I have found a cable that costs 10x my current cable and feel it exceeds it in every regard based on the formula. I buy it because for me it is a good value whereas my fellow audiophile friend uses the exact same formula and declares that I am crazy for buying it because he cannot hear the difference. Now do I care about his subjective opinion? Of course not I am building my system not his. But he will still utilize the same formula I used to base his purchasing decision on regardless of what I think a good value is or should be to him.

Sorry posted this right after yours dynaquest4 

My power cable (Schnerzinger 8000t) is $10,000 brand new.  Made such a difference with my system:  eargasm. I'm in a much better mood after each and every listening session.  Was it worth it? Hell yes!  Now the former owner tells me he sold only because he upgraded within the Schnerzinger family which now has me curious ...

Skylinedo. I can appreciate your first post, but I have to tell you this. I could never spend $10k on a power cable. Even if I had the cash, I could not do it.

dynaquest4"Build it and they will believe...cost seems never to be an issue for those with more bucks than smarts."
Once again here we see from dynaquest his seething irrepressable intolerance of those who make financial choices regarding their Music Reproduction Systems that do not comply with his rigid unflexible clearly defined and stated equation of "value." Rather than simply accept without complaint that there are those of some apparent significant financial means that can make purchases that he chooses to either not afford or that he simply cannot afford he must post here remarks meant only to demean, disrespect and embarass one can only wonder what his unending motivation for such hate is driven by probably some deep inner frustration which is regrettable for all but especially for him there is little doubt he will return with another insulting retort to my simple observation of his behavior but in truth such remarks from him have little "value" even if I apply his defintion of value to his response!  Here is his definition I wonder how he would apply it to these most recent hateful remarks of his:"the definition of value: "quality divided by price = value."

dynaquest:"Hateful remarks? Really, if I hurt your feelings, I’m sorry" 
You have not hurt my feelings you are a winkly-dinkler.You do spew hate and ignorance as is obvious from the demonstrated fact that the knowledgeable and experienced moderators on the site here have repeatedly deleted your comments so you're effort to now portray yourself as some friendly and reasonable contributor are pretty silly!

"See your reply above...I think thou doth protest too much."
What you think really doesn't matter to me if you think I "doth protest too much" you might want to carefully examine you're own "contributions" to this topic and silly rigid rules that you alone feel appropriate to bind to all. 

^^^ Exactly it’s only audio....nobody here is saving lives.

dynaquest4:"Please try to get a grip on your emotions, this discussion is not significant enough to get your panties in a wad."

That is a funny remark that you make dyna what is it exactly that you are gripping as you fantasize that I am wearing moist womens' undergarments? You truly have some infantile imagination so I wish you good luck with that and by the way I did not alert the moderators to your post I would leave it up so as to reveal to all here just how childish you are.

@2psyop I had the same feelings as to the upper limit of my spending - in this case with respect to amp pricing.  I decided that $30k ish was my upper limit for any amp.  Then I heard the D'Agostino M400 and decided that it would increase my personal enjoyment of my system to such a degree, that although I still deemed the price ridiculous, it would be money well spent.  Here I am a couple of months later and I now feel that it was a "bargain" for what it has done to my system and my personal emotional satisfaction when I listen to my system now.   Sometimes you have to be flexible to get to where you want to be. 

and again, if you buy used, especially cables, you can often sell in a few years for no/little loss...

I don't know that anyone has a Need to buy expensive cables or other products, but when an expensive one sounds great, maybe you just have to if you can...I look at it as giving myself a loan, knowing I will get most/all of my money back when I sell in a few years...

bar81

... I decided that $30k ish was my upper limit for any amp. Then I heard the D’Agostino M400 and decided that it would increase my personal enjoyment of my system to such a degree, that although I still deemed the price ridiculous, it would be money well spent. Here I am a couple of months later and I now feel that it was a "bargain" ...

I understand completely and I think many audiophiles can relate to this. My introduction to the high end of audio was an ARC D76A amplifier that a friend of mine bought used for $600 back around 1980. I thought that was crazy-money for a 60 watt amp - until he let me try it in my system. Then I saw the light. Adjusted for inflation, that $600 would be about $1,900 today. That now seems to me a rather modest price for an audiophile amp.

Had expensive, had less expensive. 
Belden 1694a and lc-1 have been the very best quality, sound, price cable I have ever owned.  And you can use that extra money for more music, or another preamp, speakers if you want. 

Dont drink the oil 

System dependent.  If you have great components and sources. You should get quality cabling. It depends on what you like. I have a system that consists of that I have 35k in components and speakers retail.  I have about 7k retail in cabling and power cords.  I’m extremley happy with my system.  Cheap cabling didn’t work for me.  I’m extermley happy and I’m done. All I do is look for music now.  Do what works for you. If you have a system that’s not resolving and transparent then cabling is less of a factor. 

32k system here . $400 in cables . Do what you have to do . 

Anyone hear of a big name system audiophile that did a blind test with Monster cable and his $20k Transparent Audio Opus ? This was done on the AVS forum website . He picked his cables 3 times out of 7 tries . The other 4 he picked the Monster cable .

Well to each his own. I use clarity Cable interconnect and power cords  , atlas mavros speaker cables. One high fidelity power cord. Works fine for me to each his own. 

@calvinj whats the difference in the music when you compared the HFC to Clarity Cable interconnects and power cords?

High fidelity is more transparent quieter backgrounds and better prat. . Clarity has a more extended top end with a little bump in the upper midrange. Which my system needed a little of.  I like my cymbals to ride a little bit!

I have to say I am using Transparent Ultra Gen 5 cables with my new Focal Kanta No.2’s (Krell amplification and Yamaha CD S2100) ....just absolutely riveting!  So lifelike on all levels...shockingly realistic to the point of enveloping me in the acoustic and textures of the original event. Never have I heard audio reproduced so compelling and alive with every last ounce of low level details coupled with such a massive dynamic range and glorious harmonics.

and again, if you buy used, especially cables, you can often sell in a few years for no/little loss...

People almost never sell our cables. They keep them. Very rare on the used market. Everything else in the system goes, and repeatedly...but not the cables. There’s no where else to go...

Send me some Teo cables and I’ll give them a fair evaluation against my Transparent cables:). It’s the least I can do!