Nice piece of work Al. I agree on all points.
Happy Listening through better wire!
Happy Listening through better wire!
why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
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This is a great statement from an earlier post; When I was able to purchase cables that are considerably more costly, the benefits were immediate. The experience isn't just heard, but felt. The musicians have arrived in my room. We have tested over 300 different cable models, not brands but models and we found that the cable manufactures that implemented technology into their construction of the actual core cable, made a difference. This means the manufacture is not buying a roll of copper or silver but rather extruding their own core cable and starting with a raw material. At that point the manufacture will implement their own technology to each strand of cable. This also means that every strand is the same diameter. When a cable manufacture puts this much effort into designing a cable, it is audible. We found that when companies focused on improving the core cable, this helped significantly. The main problem with cable manufactures is that there are only a handful of companies that have any real technology and this can mean that the retail buyer might not find a true improvement from an expensive cable and a cheaper cable until they find a cable company with real technology. Improving the core cable takes time and this can cost more money in materials and labor because the manufacture is not buying some cheap roll of cable. I do not believe you need to spend huge money on a cable but if you think that upgrading your cables to the level of your components is a waste of money, than you are in the wrong hobby/passion. We have also found you really need to change all your cables to get the true effect of cables. Your system is only as good as your weakest link. Cheers, |
I read an article some few years ago that it blind A/B testing of mainstream (cheap) interconnects versus very expensive interconnects, no listener could tell the difference. My belief is that you can build anything to a basic standard and if you package it right and price it over the top, not only will people buy it, they will actually hear a (better) difference. This is called the "audio placebo effect." If you pay more for aomething, you will expect a better performance...and your brain will tell you it is, in fact, better. Happens all the time. The majority of the responders to this post are testimony to that concept. |
"audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me..” -Gordon Holt Stereophile |
Stringreen said: "...or expensive watches..." That reminded me of when my brother-in-law bought a Rolex and was touting how great it was. I think it was a one of the cheaper models and about couple grand. Bottom line is that a watch is for timekeeping and my Seiko kept time just as well as his. What he really got for his money, I guess, was a hunk of gold jewelry that said he was successful. I'm thinking that people who, for example, buy a used pair of "Tara Labs Omega Gold" speaker cables for $7000.00 (http://www.tmraudio.com/product/xx-55) are like my brother-in-law. They are more concerned about what "having" those cables says about them than any real improvement in speaker performance. I have a set of pristine B&W Nautilus 803's. I have to chuckle because this used pair of cables cost twice what my used speakers cost. |
I like red wine but I tend to buy more moderately priced bottles because I can’t taste that much of a difference between mid-priced bottles ($10-$20) and higher priced bottles (+$25). There are bad low priced wines and bad high priced wines. But I would never say all high end wine is a rip off or call wine connoisseurs misguided as that would show my ignorance. I am slowly upgrading my audio cables and like wine I do so based on MY senses, not others. |
When it comes to taste, we humans use a fraction of our genes available and it's NEVER the same ones used from one person to the next, nor the amount. That accounts for why some have phenomenal tasting abilities and some, like me, don't. There's a lot of overlap but it's never the same. That accounts for the widely varying abilities of some to be able to nail it each and every time. The same goes for visual acuity, tactile acuity and hearing acuity. We're not all wired the same. I've seen blind tastings with wine and it all boils down to what suits your tastes. It's an immediate and undeniable process: either you like it or you don't. There's no penalty to it unless it's your job to be able to identify and quantify (those jobs can pay very well). Visual acuity can be rigorously tested and affirmed due to it's nature. There are standards that cannot be denied. I've yet to see any A/B testing of visual acuity let's say from one brand of TV to another as a means to deny the obvious advantages of having a better picture to watch. Hearing acuity is a different animal but, again, we're not all wired the same and no amount of parlor tricks can refute what we can or can't hear. This has been debated ad nauseam here and elsewhere. Granted, there are snake oil salesmen out there but there's some honest manufacturers as well. Enjoy what you like and ignore the naysayers. It's possible they can't hear the difference. All the best, Nonoise |
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jmcgrogan wrote "This thread makes me wonder if car enthusiasts on automobile websites bash Mercedes and Porsche, because obviously any Ford or Kia will do." If you look at the bodies of a Kia and Porsche or under the hoods of a Kia and a Porsche the differences will be obvious to any human with a brain . If you dress two cables of the same gauge and construction with the same fancy jackets and cut them open to look at you will not see the difference . So this luxury car comparison is strange . |
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I dont have a dog in this fight and I could care less what others use for cables but these empty arguments are ofetn hard to ignore and laughable to say the least. jmcgrogan are you really trying to say that the performance between the two wires you mentioned are as dramatic as those between a kia and a porche? Surely you do not mean to infer this. The differences between those two automobiles as well as the boats you cited can easily be distinguished through a series of basic performance tests. Unlike cables this is pretty cut and dry. However iif we were to measure these cars from a purely subjective standpoint such as asthetics or pride of ownership....well now we are wading into murky water...you know like cables. |
Sure, some folks think that boats are important and watches aren't, just as some folks feel that speakers are important and cables aren't. And some folks feel that cables are important and speakers aren't. The world is becoming more full of extremists everyday.Calling me names again? LOL!!! chrshanl37, The differences between those two automobiles as well as the boats you cited can easily be distinguished through a series of basic performance tests. Unlike cables this is pretty cut and dry. Why can't you do the same with cables? Does different cables sound the same in your system? However iif we were to measure these cars from a purely subjective standpoint such as asthetics or pride of ownership....well now we are wading into murky water...you know like cables.Are you saying nobody buy cables for SQ but only as aesthetics or pride of ownership? I build my sound system base on SOUND quality. Nothing else matters ... pride of ownership, specifications, cost .... dynaquest42 posts03-19-2016 8:24amStringreen said: "...or expensive watches..."Your bottom line for a timepiece is different than others. To some, a Rolex is sense of style or accomplishment. I'm proud owner of 4 Rolexes in different styles. In an unexpected consequence, 2 have appreciated 3X and the other 2, 2X. How much has your Seiko appreciated? I would not chuckle with B&W Nautilus 803. I'll take the Tara Labs any day. |
knghifi wrote Your bottom line for a timepiece is different than others. To some, a Rolex is sense of style or accomplishment. I'm proud owner of 4 Rolexes in different styles. In an unexpected consequence, 2 have appreciated 3X and the other 2, 2X. How much has your Seiko appreciated? Any chance in your wires appreciating ? |
maplegrovemusicWhat part of purchasing decisions are made from various reasons you just can't seem to grasp?? |
I think there are three problems with this debate. 1. No one here is going to change anyone's mind 2. Anyone who spent hundreds or thousands of $$$ on cables/interconnects is NEVER going to admit he may have overspent or made a mistake or suggest that maybe what differences do occur with expensive cables were clearly not worth the money. 3. The "placebo effect" is real yet completely ignored...i.e.. "if it is supposed to sound better, it will." Frankly...I like the quote from this tester who himself uses "upgraded" cables: " I use Analysis Plus, AudioQuest, XLO, and Zu Audio cables in my home system," he writes. "Does this mean you should spend more on speaker cables? Not really. Which cables offer the "best" sound for your system (and to your ears) is impossible to predict and has nothing to do with price. An expensive cable might sound worse on your system than cheap cable. Or it might sound better. "The important thing to remember is that even if it does sound better, it's such a minuscule improvement that pretty much anything else you can do will have a greater effect on the sound. Moving the speakers, for example, or getting a different DAC, or a different receiver. Heck, even getting a bookcase and some curtains will do more to affect the sound than new speaker cable." Above quote from: Steve Guttenberg who has worked as a high-end audio salesman, and as a record producer. Steve currently reviews audio products for CNET and works as a freelance writer for Home Theater, Inner Fidelity, Tone Audio, and Stereophile. |
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I think no one here can disagree with your first point. As for the second, substitute low and mid priced cables with expensive and the same can be said. It's kind of a straw man argument. As for the placebo effect, please. Once we have our systems optimized in our rooms and are very familiar with them, changes can be easily detected. I believe the placebo effect is only relevant when testing is being done, not evaluating in the long run. As for Mr. Guttenberg, he's entitled to his own opinion and he's not the only reviewer out there with audio cred who believes otherwise, and is more convincing to boot. The second thing he's quoted about re: cables having a minuscule improvement compared to moving speakers, room changes, etc. can also be said about amps, sources, and the speakers themselves. In other words, a poorly set up room will impart a poorly perceived result no matter the quality of the component. Swapping things out won't net you an improvement. Also, the cables he has are in the price range of what I now believe to be necessary for a more than decent return on the money provided you can get them for less than retail. The Zu Event speaker cables I got were discounted from the nearly $1K price to just over half that and are outstanding in what they do. I'd never pay that much for cables but realize that at the price I got them for, they unquestionably better the ones I've use that retail in the $200-$400 range, including the Zu Missions, which I got the same way: on sale. With the lessor cables, it was a toss up as the differences were not major, just different, and I could and did go one way and then another. Passing that lower hanging fruit got me into the realm of what's possible. All the best, Nonoise |
jl35 - wrote "wires might not appreciate in value, but if you buy used, usually you can use them few years and sell them for what you paid...so wires are often the best deal in audio..." So true . Once these have been purchased by someone from a retailer new and enter the used market is when we see their true market value and sensible people drive that market . Thanks to those who buy them at the grossly inflated retail prices . |
dynaquest43 posts03-20-2016 11:42am2. Anyone who spent hundreds or thousands of $$$ on cables/interconnects is NEVER going to admit he may have overspent or made a mistake or suggest that maybe what differences do occur with expensive cables were clearly not worth the money. So what's the point? People can't admit making a mistake only applies to cables? |
I would like to add to this discussion the president of audio manufacturer Bryston James Tanners post over on Audicircle if i may Here are my thoughts on cables - wrote this a number of years ago but as far as I know the physics have not changed. "GETTING WIRED There is not a day that goes by where I do not get asked what cable Bryston recommends with our amplifiers. Hopefully the following will assist you in weeding through some of these complex issues. Part of the problem is that there is an awful lot of marketing going on and not much science in some cases. The ‘elaborate packaging’ of these interconnects and speaker cables may make you feel warm and fussy but the electrical characteristics are still the primary issue of concern. Simply stated the geometry (where the plus is relative to the minus) of a cable determines the inter-relationship between the measured performance of a specific cable. These measured performance criteria are called the ‘Primary Constants’. They are R–resistance, L–inductance, C–shunt capacitance and G–shunt conductance. You can play around with all types of exotic packaging and add-on appendages you like but ultimately the measured performance (primary constants) tell the tale. Bryston does not think cables should be 'voiced' to sound a specific way. The best cable is NO cable at all so we contend that the best cable is the cable that changes the signal the least. COAX INTERCONNECT CABLES: An analogue Preamp/Amplifier connection is a ‘high impedance interface’ therefore; you are looking for low measured Capacitance. An interconnect cable acts like a capacitor in the signal path so the better that capacitor the better the interconnect. We use an interconnect wire with (very low capacitance) and the RCA connectors are made for us in Switzerland. The RCA cables ‘make and break ground’ first and last when connecting and disconnecting. This prevents ugly pops and bangs from going through your system with the possible negative results. XLR INTERCONNECT CABLES: The XLR cables we use are also very low in capacitance. Actually the XLR cable we are currently using is in fact low noise balanced microphone cable with 100% shield coverage against RF. The advantage of Balanced XLR cables is that they have a noise canceling effect know as ‘common mode noise reduction’. This helps prevent noise and hum from affecting your system. With today’s complexity of audio and video surround systems this is a big plus, so if you ‘got em-use em’. DIGITAL CABLES: With ‘Digital’ interconnects things are a lot different. The wavelengths of digital signals are ‘very short’ (same for FM) so the lengths and terminations are much more critical than with the analogue signals previously discussed. When the wavelength of the signal the cable is used for approaches 1/30th of the length of the cable then transmission line effects start to appear and much more attention has to be paid to the connection and termination. If not then reflections and cancellation of data is a real possibility. For instance the AES/EBU digital connection on the back of the Bryston SP3 should be used with a cable having an impedance of 110 ohms. VIDEO CABLES: Video cables also operate at very high frequencies – typically 5-6 MHz for Composite and S-Video and 8-30 MHz for Component Video depending on the scan rate and resolution. So again understanding the wavelengths of the signals and interfaces involved is important. SPEAKER CABLES: The Amplifier/Speaker interface is a ‘low impedance’ connection. Therefore, in a speaker cable you are looking for low ‘self inductance’ (because inductance rolls off the top end) as opposed to ‘low capacitance’ required in the RCA or XLR analogue interconnect. For speaker cables we use a stranded 9 gauge linear crystal copper with ‘Heavily Gold plated’ Spade lugs or Expandable Banana plugs specially made for Bryston. A/C POWER CABLES: When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get. There are 4 basic things to remember about these issues: 1. The connection should be of similar metals (preferably gold) and be airtight. If not airtight it will break down molecularly over time and begin to rectify or produce a diode effect on the signal. 2. With all the RF floating around today the better the ‘Shield’ on the interconnect the less intrusive the RF will be. 3. The connection between your analogue Source components (Preamplifier, CD Player, Tuner, DVD Player etc.) is a ‘High Impedance’ connection and the interface between your power amplifier and your speakers is a ‘Low Impedance’ connection. So, the requirements are totally different for optimizing these interfaces. 4. Digital and Video cables are much more susceptible to reflection/phase/cancellation problems because of their short wavelengths relative to cable length. As you can see from the above, no surprise that people hear differences in cables when connected to the variety of equipment in the market today. Given the differences in input and output impedance’s between transistor and tube gear, the lack of understanding of the high impedance and low impedance interfaces, the world of RF, and the digital/video connection issues no wonder we have these differences of opinion. RECOMMENDATIONS: I highly recommend keeping the speaker wires as short as possible and utilizing XLR balanced lines if available. Given the choice of long interconnects and short speaker leads or short interconnects and long speaker leads – choose long interconnects (preferably Balanced) and short speaker leads. With digital and video cables finding out the sending and termination requirements is very important due to the very short wavelengths relative to cable lengths involved. The cables Bryston recommends represent a scientific approach to these issues and are the cables we use in all our professional studio installations. All of these cables are available through Bryston’s Website (www.bryston.com) or our dealers if you wish. " |
Maybe when people get to a certain point the feeling is the only way to move forward is to spend more. Also so remember that no change in sound is better than a real one if the real one is for the worse. no doubt one cannot take the human factors out of the equation. If a hifi plays and there is no one to hear it what does it sound like? 🤔 |
...the best cable is the cable that changes the signal the least.I couldn't agree more. So it goes to say that despite protests to the contrary, all cables are not made the same and there are makes that get it right or better than most and it's all system dependent. Lots of variables here, so in the end, it's your ears that decide what sounds best in your system and to offer advice on what works in your system shouldn't come under fire from others who don't know or appreciate the particulars. All the best, Nonoise |
Has anyone ever done or know of any info on a part cost analysis of any major brand cable makers ? I have seen breakdown of other gear before in professional reviews. Manufacturing costs can be figured out for most consumer products made and sold . Why the mystery for audiophile cables i ask ? Please enlighten me . |
If it were to be decided what is expensive, then we'd all hear crickets. I mentioned what my cost considerations were and the cables involved so maybe others can chime in with theirs? Mine work out to be <10% of system costs and I couldn't be happier. What irks me is what I've already bought but then I've come to realize that as I changed components, I had to change speaker cables to get the right sound. As for manufacturing costs, all one needs to do is take a look at some of the off brands for sale here and then check out some Asian sites and you'll see the same cables with a 30-50% markup. There's always the middle man to consider. All the best, Nonoise |
What i do not get is some members want to just close the door on discussions they feel have been discussed too many times or they do not agree with. What you fail to realize is there are new members joining daily who have yet to state their opinions on topics . It is self centered that you feel since you have voiced your opinion that no others are needed . |
maplegrovemusic, after reading your quote of James Tanners explanation about power cords "insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to...blah, blah, blah" I’m confident I would never own a Bryston. Because apparently, he don’t listen to what happens in "real" world conditions with the last 3 feet. Mr. Tanners "scientific" theory sounds so logical and convincing if I didn’t know better but, it just doesn’t win out against what my ears have experienced for more than two decades. To bad Caelin Gabriel doesn’t make an amplifier... http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm Happy Listening! |
chrshanl37313 posts03-20-2016 4:34pmMany of us can agree that cables do indeed make a difference but the point of the thread was about expensive cables.Expensive is all relative. Has it ever cross your mind what's expensive to you inexpensive to another?? I took this as a shot on manufacturers that hyper inflate the cost/performance ratio.Ultimately consumers decide if the cost/performance ratio is justified. If too expensive or not enough value, company go out of business with lack of demand. Simple supply, demand and price! |
I see lots of comments about Rolexes. Prior to quartz crystal watches, Loran and GPS, an accurate watch was a necessity for navigation. That was what really made a Rolex a ROLEX. They were the choice of mariners due to their accuracy and reliability. The world has moved on from there, and now they are pieces of jewelry. I am not a believer in expensive cables, but admit that I have not A-B'd them. My extra nickels go into music and if/when there are enough, perhaps equipment. Of course every time I move up one piece of equipment, I know that I need to have saved enough for the next weak link in my system until it comes into balance again. |
rfsayles wrote "maplegrovemusic, after reading your quote of James Tanners explanation about power cords "insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to...blah, blah, blah" I’m confident I would never own a Bryston. Because apparently, he don’t listen to what happens in "real" world conditions with the last 3 feet. Mr. Tanners "scientific" theory sounds so logical and convincing if I didn’t know better but, it just doesn’t win out against what my ears have experienced for more than two decades. To bad Caelin Gabriel doesn’t make an amplifier..." I am happy for you . I am not posting to change your mind about hifi beliefs . Just stating mine is all . |
