I have seen the argument over and over again on why cables matter and the that wire is just wire and how scientifically it’s impossible for them to make a difference. The thing that surprises me the most is that different materials are used. Different shielding is used. Different connectors are used. Different braiding methods of the cables are used. Materials are sourced from different manufacturers and put through different creative processes but I always get some guy who comes on and says. WIRE IS WIRE AND YOU ARE NOT HEARING WHAT YOU ARE HEARING? To me it’s pure arrogance to think you know more than everybody else to the point where you tell me what we are hearing through my ears and we are not smart enough to know when are minds are playing trick on us. But using all these different materials, process and shielding and creative processes don’t make a difference. I spent the last 15 years trying all the cables I could try. Thoughts anyone?
The problem with naysayers is that they ask for proof, aka too lazy to look and research for themselves. They want us to do the work for them. They sit on their knowledge of “limited facts” claiming “prove me wrong”. However, for the rest on this thread, I’ll post some info:
”…Respectfully, it's not a "digital signal"; that is only how the data is encoded. The actual signal is an analog voltage "square wave", and as such is susceptible to number of "noise factors", all of which have, and do, exert an audible impact on what is heard. The other important point for folks to understand, is that a lot of folks (most, probably), think that the "noise" rides "down low", at the bottom of the "signal + noise" component of the source "information" being amplified. This is not true: the noise actually rides "on top" of the signal...as such, its deteriorates and degrades the integrity of signal itself As shown here with a digital signal source.”
”The reason that optical fiber provides a benefit is that it does not pass low- and high-source impedance leakage current, and this leakage current results in threshold jitter. Not to get too deep into the weeds here, but even the cores for the isolation transformers in the R45 jacks in an Ethernet switch can have an audible effect.
”Remember, the signal is an electromagnetic wave that propogates down the cable (it is not electrons flowing through the cable like water in a hose or marbles in a tube). The Vp(propogation velocity) of the signal is frequency-dependent, and an electromagnetic "signal" wave can reach the end of the cable and "reflect back", just like water in a tub or pool. This means different frequencies propagate down and reach the end of the cable at different times. And, because the Vp is different for different frequencies, there will be a number of "back reflections" occuring at...different times†.
This is just some foundational info to understand, that particularly with respect to digital sources, our brains are very, very sensitive to the impact of timing. For digital audio, for example, we can actually hear the influence of timing errors in the picosecond range, which is why we use femtoclocks for components like DACs, streamers, network switches, network bridges, etc. The Sonore EtherREGEN uses a Crystek CCHD-575 clock, and this crystal oscillator was chosen specifically for it's audio quality. This is why components like the Cybershaft master clocks, etc., have such a positive impact, and why EtherREGEN also has an external 50 Ohm clock input*.
The 1.5 M minimal length that Shunyata uses for Ethernet cables and USB cables, for example, was empirically determined as the shortest length that can be used to minimize the impact of signal wave "reflections" on audio quality.
It's physics, so yeah, it's a real thing”
Masterbuilt Cables were designed by the same government scientists involved in superconductors. When a heated debate on WBF including scientists and engineers over some marketing material, they were all silenced when the supercomputer scientists answered/explained their claims which went way over my head. Even scientists, engineers, etc are trumped by experts in a particular field.
If you want measurements in your cables, perhaps Iconoclast Cables. They have excellent white papers here and here that can educate on the problems and chosen solutions. Excellent read to learn about audio cables.
While a very few want proof aka understanding on how/why cables are better before purchasing, cable manufacturers rarely tell us the secret sauce so others can copy. Most of us are simply interested in price/performance, seeking better sonics.
We need to separate discussion of speaker and interconnects, which if crap can and do sound different degrading the signal, with things like Ethernet cables and power cords which you may HEAR a difference, but it is impossible by the laws of physics that the actual SOUND is different. Remember, sound is a real physical property. Hearing is what your brain tells you and it lies like a dog. Excluding defective cables and there are some out there.
If what you hear is better to you, then better is great for you as you enjoy your system more. Just please don't try to convince others who may be happy with their system that some magic thousands of dollars in snake oil is a must and their system is garbage without it. That is where the damage is. They could better use the money on better speakers ( the weak link in all systems). Analog cables can only damage the signal, they can't improve it. You may like that damage. Just recognize that is what is happening. I like my MOSFET amp, some like their tubes.
In the mean time, I am waiting for someone to demonstrate their exotic cable to beat a Belden 1800F for RCA's or 5000UP for speakers in a domestic system. for accuracy. Different does not mean better! Better, for real, may just mean the cable you had was garbage, not the magic-crystal, micro-diode, voltage-biased shield with colored braid is any better than a "good" $9 cable. Good: L and C balanced and reasonably low. Enough shielding for spurious RF, and correctly twisted pair to reduce any possible hum pickup. Cables less than a meter, Belden 1505F is pretty hard to beat. Good does not mean expensive as I have heard and measured for real, boutique cables that were crap. Length can make a difference. Some boutique cables may be fine at 1M with their high C, but 2M into a low Z input actually roll off the top. I have seen higher than 47p per foot! That adds up compared to 1800f or 1505f! In very long runs, geometry like "star quad" do work to the advantage over just a single pair or coax. Understood science. Not magic.
Carried away with shielding? Kimber, one of the companies with actual engineers, remains selling braided unshielded interconnects to balance their L and C. Never heard of any RF or hum problem from them. Proper science, not magic.
Wire itself being directional? Better look up what "AC" means. Shielding can be terminated to be directional, but not the wire. Just plain not possible.
Ethernet causing micro timing errors? "Air" "Weight" "Impact" Not possible. Your interface retransmits it into a buffer. That is the way it works. Look it up. Actually, Ethernet reflection issues are more like 75 feet minimum but by the design of the layer One, it is totally irrelevant. Level one of the IP stack, BITS ARE BITS. Look it up, don't believe me. I don't care what some advertising sheet says was "empirically tested" . BS. They make an extraordinary claim like that, OK, let's see the data! What your equipment does with those bits is a different matter. Not the cable. There is no minimum spec on cables, though in the 10G realm, some have additional termination within the cable to keep the BER below 10 ee-13 reducing the need for re-transmit of errors.
Still using synchronous mode over USB? Stop doing that and any noise and jitter caused by the cable is irrelevant. The DAC takes care of that. Newer ones, very well indeed.
Power cable adding "weight" or "air"? I am not saying you don't hear it, I am saying it is not real sound as it is impossible in this universe.
What you hear is up to you, it is when you cross over from the not well understood and maybe innovation, to the impossible, then I have an issue and will call it out. When you claim the impossible, the producer of such magic are making an extraordinary claim and need to make extraordinary proof. Not what you hear, as your brain is lying to you. They lie to all of us. Music reproduction is all about convincing you that lie is real.
Now I know, no one wants to hear they have been had. We are all humans and our lying brain does not like that and will jump though hoops denying that lie. So be it. Please just make the effort not to propagate the impossible and focus on the at least probable and more people can actually improve the real sound of their system.
Here’s the problem. When you can’t support an argument without using the term “Snake Oil” all credibility is gone. A lack of experience and knowledge is poor support for theories based on denial. Famous words from the lawyer that got O J Simpson acquitted:: “Deny, Deny, Deny”.
asctim It seems none of these manufacturers seem to know how to make a proper power cord for their electronics.
I’ve been saying "no cable company knows how to make audio and power cables properly except Wavetouch audio." The truth is in the performance of audio system. Wavetouch audio sounds closest to the original music in the world. Alex/Wavetouch
Your comments about stock Belden cables being hard to beat is interesting given all the theories, marketing hype, and exorbitant pricing for "audiophile" cables that either by measurement or listening tests have not been uniformly proven to provide significant (if even audible) sonic improvements. Belden cables (among other professional type cables) are mostly used to process the music we listen to and the equipment we use for playback includes many feet of mostly basic copper wire that is used in transformers, speaker voice coils, and other components.
Belden makes some compelling stock cables and I believe it would be interesting to listen to their bulk/stock cables compared to much more costly "audiophile" cables, assuming the Belden cables were similarly terminated.
For interconnects, the Belden 1800F you mentioned uses foamed Polyethylene insulation and braided copper shielding, and should perform well as an interconnect, either RCA or XLR. If this had been specifically designed for the audiophile market, it seems they might have used their High Conductivity Oxygen-Free Bare Copper (OFHC) wire instead of their Bare Copper (BC) wire, which I believe is tough pitch electrolytic copper (99.9+ percent pure copper at 100% IACS).
For speaker cables, instead of the 5000 series which uses PVC insulation, I would suggest the line of Belden speaker cables recommended by Galen Gareis for those who want a less expensive option to his Iconoclast cables. Those options all use OFHC copper and are insulated with foamed Polyethylene. The line includes the two conductor 1313A (10awg) and 1311A (12 awg), and the four conductor 1312A (12 awg) and 1310A (14 awg) cables, either of which can be constructed in a star-quad geometry resulting in aggregate gauges of 9 and 11 awg, respectively.
I find it interesting that Belden’s upscale Iconoclast line does not include power cables and instead they recommend cables from the Belden Audio/Video (BAV) line including Belden’s 19105, 19106 and 19107 stock cable (high-flex 10, 12 and 14 AWG BC conductors) with upgraded connectors.
I am too far down the road with cables to go back and buy/try the Belden cables discussed above but if I were starting over, knowing what I know now and having experienced what I have related to cables, I would definitely use the cables listed above and save my money for component and speaker upgrades where I have always heard much more significant differences and improvements than with cables.
... Hearing is what your brain tells you and it lies like a dog ...
The notion that everyone is under the influence of expectation bias and placebo effect and that subjective listening reports are essentially the result of delusion, is simply absurd. It’s just like a certain politician who instructed his followers to ignore what they read and saw and instead listen only to him. Smart people don’t dismiss observations and empirical evidence just because someone else tells them to.
Get this: Placebo effect and wishful thinking won’t cure cancer. Typically, biases are revealed over time. For most of us, our brains work fairly well, especially when we use the tool of logic. Potential vulnerability to bias does not mean our brains "lie like a dog." That's the logical fallacy of the excluded middle, an error @tvrgeekmakes frequently.
I think there is too much generalization in this thread. The quality of cabling and power cords must be commensurate with the quality of the speakers, amps and sources. Eg. $3000 speaker cables do not make sense for a $3000 pair of speakers and a $3000 amp. Someone may hear a difference but those speakers/amp will never realize the full potential of those cables. The converse, someone with $50k speakers and $20k amps running Belden wiring will never hear the true potential of their equipment. There has to be a balance. Lastly, people react differently when they hear a truly remarkable hi end hifi system. Some are blown away and then make it their life goal to achieve that sound in their home (me). Some think it’s nice but too over the top and just don’t care about it (my brothers). Some don’t see it as a big deal at all and are happy with a Sony boom box (my youngest brother).
Take my home theater system. I have a nice Marantz receiver, Monitor Audio Gold 200 speakers and a Sony OLED TV. It’s nothing like my stereo system. It’s a good mid fi set up and I’m fine with that. I can listen to music on it. It’s not holographic and the clarity is not breathtakingly good like my stereo but it is pleasant enough sound. Some things trickle down from my stereo system to my home theater system. For example, the HT system got my Furman Elite power conditioner when I upgraded the stereo to the Niagara 5000. The stereo sound improved quite noticeably. The HT system sound improvement I did not notice so much but the TV picture improvement blew me away. The picture got sharper and the colors brighter. An amazing change. I tried to convince friends and family that they need an $800 power conditioner on their $1000 TVs but no one listened to me. Yes, I have some upgrade power cords on my HT system- trickle down but not anything exotic expensive.
When I got the LHY SW-8 network switch, I ran a 75 foot long ethernet cable to my Apple TV box. The streaming picture improved dramatically. The TV picture today looks like a photograph in motion. I am so taken by the picture that I don’t think about the sound so much. And no, I’m not going to run a 75 foot long silver plated ethernet cable to my HT system. Also, I have $400 speaker cables on the HT speakers. When I upgraded my stereo speaker cables from expensive to very expensive I didn’t put the old cables on my HT system. It would not have made much of an improvement in the sound of the HT system. Sure, maybe something but not worth the cost of those cables.
Summary: Cables commensurate to the equipment in use. Buy good gear but go cheap on cables and sadly, the full potential will never be realized. Point two: Get a good power conditioner for your TV. In this case an $800 power conditioner for a $1000 TV will make a difference. Ok, my OLED TV cost a little more than that.
"$3000 speaker cables do not make sense for a $3000 pair of speakers and a $3000 amp. Someone may hear a difference but those speakers/amp will never realize the full potential of those cables."
Look, stereo gear comes in differing levels of performance. Some basic 100 w/ch amps can be had for a few hundred dollars these days. They use IC’s, low grade electrolytic capacitors, low grade resistors, inductors, low grade printed circuit boards and wiring. They make music but the distortion and noise levels wash out resolution and detail. Better gear still use op amps but will have better electrolytic caps and resistors, inductors and maybe better grade printed circuit boards. And today’s op amps perform much better than in the past. The best gear uses discrete components, high grade circuit boards, better grade of electrolytic capacitors and some film capacitors- better transistors, or tubes. and better grade of inductors. Now resolution and detail is sufficient to differentiate between the different grades of cables. The top end gear will have more sophisticated EMI and RFI rejection circuitry, silver or gold plated printed circuit boards and top grade wiring, resistors, inductors and film and electrolytic capacitors. Add in some nice metal work and metal boxes for this higher end gear and the prices do get rather high. You get what you pay for- very high resolution, clarity, low noise and detail. Now the best cables and power cords will work together with this gear to provide the ultimate in performance.
Take for example, my Marantz HT receiver. It is a nice 40 lb box that delivers 125 W/ch into 9 channels at 8 ohms. One of my Pass Labs mono amps delivers 280 watts into a single channel. That mono amp is almost twice the size of the Marantz receiver and weighs 110 lbs. I expect it to deliver a much higher level of performance and it does. I also know that the best power cords, speaker cables and interconnects will enhance its performance whereas those same cables would be overkill for the Marantz receiver. I know I would not hear much of a difference on my mid fi system with high end cables- it can’t hurt but it also will not help much.
I hope this answers your question and you are being sincere- not just yanking my chain.
It's the weakest link in the chain story. Buy a top grade amp, preamp and speakers but use a $200 CD player and the system will not inspire. Get a good quality source and the system sounds better. Now get some good cabling to round out the system and it will really sing.
It's like my brother back in high school. He bought a 1969 Gran Torino with a 4 speed transmission. He rebuilt the engine and put a 3/4 race cam in it. Double pumper four barrel carburetor and headers. First thing that broke were the valve push rods. The stock push rods could not handle the race cam. Then he broke the transmission. Got a Borg Warner T10- the rock crusher, it was called. Next, he burned up the stock clutch. Put in a racing clutch. Took all I had to push in the clutch pedal. Spun the drive shaft (or prop shaft). Got a stronger drive shaft. Lastly, broke the U bolts holding the rear springs. Finally sold the car. But it was fast.
YES, everyone is under the placebo effect. All the time, for all subjects. Isn't our brain a wonderous thing? We are never objective. Not humans at least. Understanding this will go a long way in life.
Bad cables may well be more obvious on great gear, but $30,000 speakers are still 1000 times worse than the the worst cables or the best electronics.
Mono-crystal OFC copper for interconnects is marketing BS. That's all. You can measure the difference in conductivity in the lab. Who freaking cares if one cable has 1m Ohm and another 1.02 when you are driving a 40K Ohm load. Speakers? OK even dipping to 3 Ohms, don't care. Perspective folks. Capacitance, inductance, and velocity matter and that comes from geometry. Well understood.
Sure I wish Belden 1500 had PTFE insulation, but in a 2 or 3 foot cable, irrelevant
As far as that silver, now at audio frequencies skin depth is about an 18 gauge wire, so full depth. Why do you want two different conductors? Marketing! Look inside that speaker and see what your boutique cable is actually driving in the loop. Unless you are in the Sabrina range, it is going into maybe 100 feet of 18 gauge cheap Chinese recycled wire. Even then, the VC is nothing special at any price. Caps? Aluminum foil. Oh yea, how about that steel wire resistor pad on the tweeter? Where do I wish we used silver? CONNECTORS. Silver oxide has the same conductivity as silver. Remember all those ugly brown tarnished type N 50 Ohm connectors? Best ever made.
Beef? Yea, I have seen big box salesmen selling $300 speaker wire to ladies buying $300 speakers. Utterly immoral in my book.
If your old Ethernet cable gave you dropouts, pixel flashes, jitter etc, it was a BAD cable. So replacing it with a cable that meets spec, i.e. CAT5e, certified, and the picture is now great just proves my point. Defective cables are bad. Good cables are good. Simple dividing line in the digital world. Analog world is touchier.
.Speaking picture quality, I have cut open a lot of HDMI cables. Cheap ones. I was having issues with POD and CEC. Several were not even constructed correctly. Drains not attached, foil backwards. Lots of problems. Replaced with Monoprice and Blue Jean. No more problems. HDMI cables are not easy to make or terminate so cheap ones tend to be, well cheap. We are still talking digital here, so any perception of resolution is placebo, not real provided you are using the correct spec cable and it does actually meet spec. An exotic Ethernet or HDMI cable can't make a sharper picture than one than only meets spec. Just the way it works. Not magic. Now, a really bad or sub-par cable may cause your Ethernet to re-negotiate to a lower speed and the TV may be smart enough to drop to a lower resolution. That you would see. My Sony LED I tested @ 96MB/s which is enough tor 4K. I am not sure what it takes for 3D- Atmos-whatever. It may be more than a Base CAT5 cable can deliver. 8K is. 5e should be good though. 6a has gotten really cheap. Science. Not magic.
Iconoclast speaker and interconnect cables are state of the art MEASURING from one of the top engineers in the wire world. No doubt. But is the sound actually different? Not what you hear, the actual sound. It is possible under the laws of physics, but at a level so far below the source material I seriously doubt it. I would call them excessive, but not snake oil as they are actually carefully designed products with a measurable difference at least in the LAB.
So, a $3000 amp is no good? $3000 speakers no good? The very smoothest amp I have ever heard is on my desk right now. Big beefy 2W Schiit Rekkr costs $150. Of course, this is only good for my desk nearfield and not pushed very hard.
I have had dozens of amps home. Much above $500 there is no correlation between price and sonic quality. Some expensive amps are wonderful " wire with gain". Some add delightful distortions we love. Some sound like crap. Some have well designed feedback and are very load invariant. Some will oscillate with a 4 Ohm load. You can't price categorize them. The cleanest tweeter I know of is the Vifa XT-25 if used at moderate levels above 4K. Costs $25. Play lower or play louder, well then it gets really hard and bucks pile up fast.
Do you know how many hundreds of feet of plain old XLR cables your fancy TITLE MQA file has gone through? Know how distorted the mic was? Love those old AKG tube jobs for vocals. Wonderful distortion. Old mixing board full of hundreds of NE5558 Op amps? Yup. Our brains lie to us all the time. The further down the rat hole we fall, the more they lie.
No complaints about a decent power RF filter, surge suppressor ,and even a DC filter. The power company supplies quality for incandescent light bulbs and motors. So if we need cleaner power, it is up to us as most even boutique makers do a terrible job internally. JDS and Schiit do a pretty decent job BTW. Clean power is NOT going to add weight, air, space, texture, depth, or any adjective a subjective You-Tuber or ad jockey can make up. It just lets your equipment work as intended. Added the Emotivia DC filter when line issues were making my amp toroid buzz. They make pretty decent power line stuff. So does Trip-Lite, Iso-Max, Panamax, Furman and even some Monster.
Again:
Our brains lie
Bad cables are bad
In the digital world we only need a good cable
In the analog world, it is harder but understood and not difficult
@facten. Thanks. I’m keeping busy in my retirement. The hardware came from Grangier. I polished the brass pieces to a high sheen with some metal polish. The only down side is those threads on the rods are sharp. I was positioning a preamp one time and my Apple Watch scraped against those threads. Put a deep scratch in the crystal face. Trade in value instantly dropped to zero. Doh!
Hang in there tvrgeek. I think OJ’s lawyers would be proud.
So what did you do to protect those ladies from unscrupulous salesmen? I wouldn’t hesitate to go up and advise them that they are wasting their money. Just like I would advise you based on the gear you have but you already know that.
I believe I understand your thinking that cables should match pedigree with source components, amps and speakers but have you witnessed that? First hand?
As for the Torino..... Solid lifters? Only time I witnessed pushrod failure was Incorrect lash or cam timing being wrong and valves hit pistons on TDC and bending the pushrods. Either case whom ever worked on the engine F-ed up..
The notion that everyone is under the influence of expectation bias and placebo effect and that subjective listening reports are essentially the result of delusion, is simply absurd. It’s just like a certain politician who instructed his followers to ignore what they read and saw and instead listen only to him. Smart people don’t dismiss observations and empirical evidence just because someone else tells them to.
Although there’s a possibility of a placebo effect, it’s offset by the multitudes of voices saying otherwise. Common sense, which maybe not as common as we hope, would rule out that all these people including professional reviewers are being duped, by the manufacturers. It’s quite common for as one moves up a product line like Audioquest that there are usually noticeable are sonic improvements. There is also a chorus of people who say Belden is a quality cable, but moving up to a better cable makes an obvious audible differences.
YES, everyone is under the placebo effect
This speaks volumes of your ignorance, I doubt you’ve even met 0.1% of the population.
Thank you kind sir. I ended up installing the hardwood floor myself. I have installed hardwood flooring before which is why I didn’t really want to do it again but it was the pandemic. Had a hard time even getting the flooring. But it worked out in the end and I saved some money doing it myself. Just rent the big staple gun and my wife who likes puzzles, laid out each row of wood and kept scrap to a minimum.
I like the hardwood flooring vs carpeting because, 1) the 7/8” thick wood stiffens the floor which is good for room acoustics and 2) I can control reflections using wool rugs over the hardwood. And I probably no longer need my self made cable risers with the wood flooring but I kept them in place since I put the work into them.
Thanks for the info. After reading about the cables that Nordost sells I found a section about how the cables are better after "burn in" because the cable outgasses, and they claim the insulation charges up. Most things out gas but I don’t understand how that would affect the quality of sound. The article goes on to say "The diode effect of the conductor will be more pronounced after a minimum of 150 hours.. They also claim that small impurities in the conductor act as diodes, allowing the signal to flow better in one direction making the cable directional." That in particular was my reason for asking about purity of the copper. At 4-9s purity it is difficult for me to see how those could contribute.
I presented this article to a colleague who has a PHD, is a Professor and researcher for the local University. After reading the article he just smiled and said it seems like some fluff to support their view. I cannot speak to that but I am skeptical of some of the claims.
Vinyl outgasses. Vinyl is actually a very brittle plastic. You know that film on the windshield of a new car? Yea the rather toxic oils used to "plasticize" the vinyl. PP or PE do not outgas much compared to vinyl and they are both far better dielectrics. PTFE even better and more stable. The process of outgassing is not hours in your system, but time and temperature from manufacturing. Vinyl starts immediately and lasts years. ( split dashboards!) PP takes decades to even measure any change. In a laboratory, I do expect plasticizer outgassing to change the dielectric. Audible? Well we try not to use vinyl anyway. GOOGLE about plasticizers ad you will find most of the research is involving exposure to solvents. Yea, why the fuel line on your chain saw keeps cracking! I did a lot of laboratory testing on this subject as it relates to "O-rings" in various solvents. Different use case, same chemistry.
Now, after 150 hours what is the difference? Your BRAIN has re-mapped to convince you it is better. Our brain lies. Always. Humans are never objective. If so, fine and money well sent because it is your perception and enjoyment even if there is no actual change. Electrolytic caps do "form". Tubes do age. Speaker suspensions change. Not much else changes in modern electronics.
Diodes making the cable directional? Guess this prestige company has never heard audio is AC. That alone should unmask the scam. Only shield termination can make a cable useful in one orientation. The conductors don't know the difference. In actuality, an oxide layer or discontinuity in the crystal structure acts more like a back to back diose, not directional anyway.
Maybe their cables sound fine. I hope so. Most do. It is actually not hard. Their claims are total made up to sham the non-technical to spend a lot of money for their ego. P.T. Barnum had a lot of wisdom.
"Fluff" is a politically correct way of saying BS. "Prestige" is the nice word for snake oil.
Not mentioned as a place where interconnects may play a larger roll is with passive preamps feeding long high capacitance cables into low-ish impedance inputs. You can do the math. With a max attenuation making output impedance as low as 5K, and some inputs as low as 10K, it does not take too many "puffs" to roll off the top end. My advice would be to drive cables much longer than a meter with an active stage rather than searching for magic cables. Hint: Pro audio used high current higher voltage balanced lines to overcome this limitation. ( xlr cables) Well understood. Science and engineering, not "fluff"
@ernstmach- I can’t speak to the provenance of their statements. That said, I think you also need to take into consideration that your colleague nor you have heard the cables over a time period. Are you really in a position to say/conclude that what they stated doesn’t occur? If you are skeptical maybe find a retailer that offers a trial period and listen and evaluate for yourself. Personally, I don’t get caught up in all of the "science" I’m more interested in the result of what I hear. BTW I have (Tchernov) or have had (e.g. Silnote) interconnect cables from manufacturers that have directional arrows and just connect accordingly could care less about the why.
appreciate what you are saying. " I realize the science end has fewer proponents.
"Are you really in a position to say/conclude that what they stated doesn’t occur?"
Not saying it doesn't happen. I do know that my work with pulling deep vacuum says anything will out gas just cannot say it means anything hence the ongoing questionnaire. As far as contaminates in 4-9s pure wire I find it hard to believe that contaminant size has enough mass to be of consequence.
I'm far more inclined to believe the words of someone that has the credentials earned towards this subject.
Has anyone considered that the wire might sound even more different due to cold working ot the wire?
@tonywinga my system actually sounds better in a carpeted room. I have hard woods. I will be at lone star audio fest in Dallas with my system minus the subs in June
Thanks for your detailed response. I'm usually skeptical about such claims as I listed.
I also realize I have much to learn. Working in a research environment has helped me to be skeptical but with a need/want to understand.
After reading through this thread, it is obvious that everyone has their insights and preference built on their experience and knowledge. That is what I was looking for.
@ernstmachThen you need to do more research and give this podcast a listen. Cables do matter no matter how much Science and knowledge The Geek espouses. He is not an engineer nor is he a designer/manufacturer. Pure conjecture on his part.
Peter Comeau is a renowned engineer and designer and will debunk a lot that is said in these forums. Again, just the facts from a real engineer.
If cable does not matter you think MikeLavigne and Albertporter will spend money on cables? This two audiophile are highly respected here at Agon.Check their system see what you think?
It's pretty easy to tell the difference between speaker cables IF you have a high enough resolving system AND the speaker cables are dissimilar enough.
However, there are plenty of cables that you can't tell the difference between and price doesn't seem to be much of a factor.
I'd say it's more difficult to tell between interconnects, but I've always used fairly good ones. I should try some cheapies in the future.
@jeffrey125that is so true. Look I’m not being snobby but I have all the latest gear from INFIGO AUDIO who I now work with. Amp and dac literally have no noise floor. Music comes out of blackness. When you have that kind of gear cables matter. When you have gear and speakers capable of great resolution you hear the difference
@jeffrey125that is so true. Look I’m not being snobby but I have all the latest gear from INFIGO AUDIO who I now work with. Amp and dac literally have no noise floor. Music comes out of blackness. When you have that kind of gear cables matter. When you have gear and speakers capable of great resolution you hear the difference
Has anyone else ever heard of Vogue Audio, a small US based cable company? I use nothing else except for my USB cable's? Which unusually Vogue Audio doesn't manufacture strangely enough? I know some people are not really into solid silver cable's but I've found them very impressive which Vogue Audio manufacture nothing else.
Look I’m not being snobby but I have all the latest gear from INFIGO AUDIO who I now work with. Amp and dac literally have no noise floor. Music comes out of blackness. When you have that kind of gear cables matter. When you have gear and speakers capable of great resolution you hear the difference
Agree - as one moves up in better lowered noise floors, transparency, and resolution usually associated with better “likely significantly more expensive gear” (diminishing returns) then cables can be the sonic bottleneck unless addressed.
@kennycthat's the part where some people don’t get it. Low noise, transparency and detail matter. When you don’t have the right cables that can be a bottleneck to the music. It’s not what the cables are adding. It’s what they are not adding that’s important.
It’s usually pointless to debate with naysayers- it’s not a lack of understanding but an heavy bias envy/anger “emotional resentment” based on their perception of value and unaffordability.
Tactics often used:
Lie then ask us to prove different
Ask for proof- a smokescreen to ignore sonic gains, tries to place a precondition for it to work. If it works proof not needed
Create fake victims - someone is being duped. Audiophiles do not part with their money easily, the more it costs, the higher scrutiny we use.
Unrealistic Exaggerate examples
Ignore sonic gains
Look for a few examples, then apply findings as representing the whole
Present themselves as knowledgeable by presenting unrelated facts, then end with their unsupported claims
One cannot reason with unreasonable people. Few will ever admit their mistake aka being wrong- their self esteem is tied to them being right.
@kennyc you hit the mail on the head. There is a resentment tied to some of the opinions they have. Because some of us participate in this hobby at a different level there is bias. Look I’m willing to pay for music in its best form. My system makes me rush home to listen. Like having a concert in home!
Sorry, this is a bit of necromancy here, but I have been reading this thread (and others on this forum) with great interest and have some questions.
How do you know of your system is “high enough resolving”? Do you just know? Is it “high enough resolving” only if you can hear changes to the system when you swap out cables and power cords? Does equipment have to be expensive to be “high enough resolving”? Or can lesser priced equipment be “high enough resolving”? What is it about a particular piece of equipment, say something from Infigo……, that makes it “high enough resolving”? Is there something in the specifications of the equipment that will give me some clue as to whether or not it will be “high enough resolving”? Or do you just have to buy stuff and switch it out until you think you are there? If I measure the noise floor of my room and then turn my equipment on and it doesn’t change, does that mean my system is “high enough resolving”? Does cable burn in only matter of your system is “high enough resolving”?
Thanks in advance, as this seems to be a fairly confusing topic.
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