Who to trust when buying vintage ss ?
A co worker wants to start getting into audio. I suggested an harmon kardonn 670 as a starter. Any suggestions for trustworthy online sellers of this sort?
Thanks
T
I would not start out in “vintage”. In audio. That’s just a misplaced synonym for “old” and high risk of kaChing of pending repairs , if even possible . ( hint: parts can be scarce ) without prejudice to the former, most budget current offering options will generally easily best the “vintage” options in audio performance, The latter is primarily just a playground for nostalgia fans willing to compromise on the warts of old gear, and not a preferred starting point for newbs. |
OK, can you suggest something selling under $500 SS that will sound as nice as the HK670? Thats the piece I started with and it really impressed me at the time. I don't know if I would have continued without that HK. I am not intending to sound snarky, but I understand it can be difficult to interpret texts. I just dont want him to go to Bestbuy and end up with something that has never sounded good. I want him to experience a taste.
Thanks
TD |
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Myriad of options out there for a suitable integrated amp that will easily best the HK include inter alia, my budget fave …the REGA BRIO integrated amp. https://www.whathifi.com/rega/brio/review To save money, buy pre-owned …. Many other quality brands pre-owned out there that include ROTEL, NAD, ARCAM, CREEK, CYRUS, ROKSAN , MUSIC FIDELITY, LINN, etc. All components have their own bespoke sonic signature , so formulate a proper plan FIRST that also includes a preferred source, speakers, and cables. System synergy matters … full stop. for the REGA BRIO, think preowned REGA R1/ RS1/ RX1 model bookshelf speakers (all preowned) for a dynamite system. For example. the NAD amps typically have a darker presentation with a rolled off top end. Not all speakers work well with it. (One that does is PSB speakers) The MUSIC FIDELITY can sound bright with certain brand speakers etc. Roll up your sleeves , read some reviews, do some auditions , and engage your plan. A lazy man’s default to Best Buy is a banishment to mostly low-fi, maybe lucky to a low-end mid-fi, and regrettably not hi-fi. Choose wisely.
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No Modern amplifier are able to give me the many functionalities and flexibility and quality i was buying with an old Sansui AU 7700...NONE.... At almost any price...Look at the manual owner to verify... I like it so much i bought a more refined Sansui alpha but with less functionalities because more modern even if it is vintage today also ... I only payed for a technician to refresh the necessary old components of the AU 7700 ... But i keep the alpha as it is... Even with this added price for the AU 7700 it is a bargain...I used it 8 years till i needed the more refined alpha for my picky headphone.. I will not spoke about my old K340 from AKG... A treasure...nothing touch it i ever listened to... Anybody who plan to buy new costly stuff must think what he need for himself to begin with BEFORE buying ... You must know a knowleadgeable technician near by.... There is a need for up to date replacement of the internals...In many case... But i smile at every new amplifier offer at many thousand dollars and more... For 500 bucks i own two amplifiers i will never sold...I used the alpha Sansui with my K340 ... The alpha is so much good any upgrade is meaningless.. Before bashing vintage use your brain...😊 Is the top amplifier of 1978 or 1988 always a top product ? Yess.. More than that no headphone today under 1000 bucks and probably more can deliver the S.Q. of the K340...NONE...It would be too costly and too complex to design one that will work satisfyingly today and make profit... This is what a Russian big headphone company said to me CLEARLY...😁 Vintage myths of the past are not ALL trash , it is the opposite for some past products compared to the average costlier product on the market today...There is a reason why some products reach mythical status and we are then able to read tons of positive reviews about them today ... The only exception is not my amplifiers, there is no negative reviews about my two Sansui all over the net at all ; but the K340 received a few negative reviews because some of few reviewers never was able to figure out how work this complex designed headphone , which were AKG flagship for a good reason and the best headphone they ever designed ...I know because the negative they described i experienced it after i connected my K3490 after buying them BEFORE MY 6 MONTHS optimization process... No, this top of the world product is not easy to figure out... Sorry... but when all is done to embed it properly it surpass most existing headphones by far... Read about it to understand why ...
Vintage rule the ratio S.Q. /price scale... Thats is for sure... My 700 bucks system beat all i ever listened to and rival the rest not too far behind ... end of my story.... I listen music now not my system defects... 😊
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@tonydennison Without getting into the nitty-gritty, you need twice the power to get a 3dB increase in perceived sound volume. The corollary is that at 30w, you'd take a -3dB hit. To get twice as loud (+10dB), you need ten times the power. Anyhow, unless he's blasting it, it's 30watts of clean power versus 60 watts of grainy old components grinding away through old potentiometers and dusty caps.
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I sold and old McIntosh C28 and MC2125 because every time I hooked it up I asked myself why I was listening to this gear with a lack of focus and clarity. I loved the tone, so that saved it for a few rotations. When I do have that nostalgia, and I almost pulled the trigger here once, I look at my priorities and budget, and just think back the late 70's and early 80's instead. I would to pick up something old as a soldering project but then I'd need speakers I didn't want to test it on. lol Not the best answer but it's free. |
"Vintage myths of the past are not ALL trash , it is the opposite for some past products compared to the average costlier product on the market today...There is a reason why some products reach mythical status and we are then able to read tons of positive reviews about them today .." True, but I think the naysayers here are simply pointing out that because of age, they may 1-need work and 2-parts may be an issue. I may have missed in in the thread, but I don't people were saying old is bad quality because of when it was made. |
"30watts of clean power versus 60 watts of grainy old components grinding away through old potentiometers and dusty caps. " I agree, my monoblocks are pushing maybe 40 watts but I don't think my coworker will jump in with a class A clean power pusher. I was asking if the amps suggested were class A and therefore giving a constant push. |
@tonydennison No. AB. Pure Class A runs HOT. You don't need or want that. Especially at this low price point.
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@tonydennison Wrote:
Yes! Look at Ragnarok Integrated Amp $1499 Power Output, Speaker Outputs: Mike |
@ditusa If he would go that high, I would tell him to buy Quicksilver.
https://audiophilestyle.com/classifieds/item/2022-quicksilver-integrated-tube-amplifier/ |
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No way i could have reach Hi-Fi at low cost ( 700 bucks with reparations and dac included few years ago ) with new products on the market... Then i would have bought in all probabilities under 10,000 dollars of the wrong stuff...Especially the headphones... What headphone can outshine my K340 and which Amplifier will outshine the Sansui alpha and at what price? The same reasonnings go with my 50 bucks more than average Mission Cyrus 781...So low in price because the owner did not know if they even worked... 😊 The bonus is before buying you must read and study the vintage products among the other choices... Most people dont do this with new offerings... They succumb to the marketing ... my grain of salt... The worst products i bought were all new one...After reading reviews speaking of the new offerings... With vintage you have tons of USERS reviews... Very different reviews than reviewers reviews ...😊 New never means better in my book... Save if you pay a huge amount of money corresponding to TOP product of today which will rival or beat TOP product of yesterday...(it will be true for my amplifiers and for my speakers if you pay a lot of money but good luck to replace the K340 with anything even the costlier headphone ) Ok my grain of salt is already too big for most ...😊 Anyway most people here seems to swim in money sea,and reviewers, sellers and consumers dont like my claim : "audiophile high-End experience for those who lack money "...my claim is a devaluation of their experience or worst : a lie... But the gear can lie , acoustic never lie ... 😁 I must be an audiophile "provocateur"....
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Vintage is not the place to start. Lots of old sexy looking stuff out there that perhaps has been redone pretty well but you never know and vendors in that business are asking over inflated prices these days for what originally cannot compare to modern gear plus is old and who knows what? It should at least look pretty before one pays inflated prices for complex old gear that was just OK for the most part compared to modern gear even when new. Technology has advanced greatly since the 1980s and before. I know because I’ve been there all the time and even used to sell much of that vintage gear back when it was fresh and new. Having been warned, check out “Just Audio” website. They specialize in vintage and also sell some good new gear. I’ve used them to repair vintage with mixed results and also have bought new with much better results. |
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Cambridge Audio is another option. I wouldn’t outrule Fosi or Topping if features match your needs on Amazon. Easily returned if does not work out or cheap enough to keep around as a spare. Active speakers to replace both speakers and amp another easy option. Vanatoo Transparent One actives are pretty close to your budget range and are hard to beat for their size. Read up on these online. |
jasonburne71+ magister+ I recommend Echo Audio, Portland Or, and Hawthorne, Seattle. Both sell used and new and repair as well. Echo has upgraded power caps and signal path caps in a Pioneer SA9500II (a part of one of three systems I use regularly). Echo has also recapped an Accuphase E202 and a Macintosh 6100. All integrated amps 40-50 years old and all extremely reliable and sound-worthy. I currently run the three systems through ADS 910's, purchased from Hawthorne as well as ADS 710's and Klispch Forte II's. The ADS models are 40-45 years old, the Klipsch Fortes slightly younger. So vintage gear has been good to me and I highly recommend that path. These are all my "keepers" after auditioning many of the other noteworthy Amos of the era. They were reconditioned when I decided to keep them and have given me only pleasure and no expense since. I also agree with the NAD recommendation, particularly the PE Power Envelope models. Nostalgic? Yes. Quality sound that meets my expectations at a relatively low cost.
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jasonburne71+ magister+ I recommend Echo Audio, Portland Or, and Hawthorne, Seattle. Both sell used and new and repair as well. Echo has upgraded power caps and signal path caps in a Pioneer SA9500II (a part of one of three systems I use regularly). Echo has also recapped an Accuphase E202 and a Macintosh 6100. All integrated amps 40-50 years old and all extremely reliable and sound-worthy. I currently run the three systems through ADS 910's, purchased from Hawthorne as well as ADS 710's and Klispch Forte II's. The ADS models are 40-45 years old, the Klipsch Fortes slightly younger. So vintage gear has been good to me and I highly recommend that path. These are all my "keepers" after auditioning many of the other noteworthy amps of the era. They were reconditioned when I decided to keep them and have given me only pleasure and no expense since. I also agree with the NAD recommendation, particularly the PE Power Envelope models. Nostalgic? Yes. Quality sound that meets my expectations at a relatively low cost.
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I agree with others who say that "vintage" is high risk. Also, technology has progressed so far and so fast in the last decade (dacs, class d, computer designed speakers) I would not recommend a newby start 10-20 years behind the curve.
For budget try a raspberry streamer with an smsl su1 dac, an AIYIMA A07 amp, and any "bookshelf" size speaker that is easy to drive but not harsh or honky horn. For simplified budget a NAD 3020 new version class d amp with any of the top 10 bookshelf size speakers. For simple streamer one of the decent chinese streamers like wiim mini or audioengine. For high end and simplicity from the get-go get one of the top powered monitors with any high end streamer.
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There are some reputable online dealers that do very good refurbishing of vintage units- but at a very steep cost IMHO that is not as competitive as buying new. I went the vintage route and every piece I bought needed work. Buy from a local craigslist dealer and audition before you buy if vintage is a must- or buy from a local dealer that sells them with a return policy. |
The question is who do you trust, not should you buy vintage audio gear. For the East Coast crowd Audio Classics in Ct jas sold vintage gear for many years. The McIntosh MR78 is still considered one of the best tuners if people still listen to local FM radio. Interestingly, the current prices (high) show substantial demand for refreshed vintage gear. |
This falls into the "good problem to have" catagory. A friend wants your advice on how to begin his/her hifi journey. Sure beats someone seeking advice on prostate surgery. I can follow your logic here. You want to recommend something that brought a great deal of musical enjoyment in your life and you want to share that experience with a friend. It is a valid refererence to sound quality, functionality, and build quality. What’s not to like about this piece? It’s hard for others to get inside your head and figure out what’s driving your motivations. Your intentions are honorable, and rational. Or, is bang for the buck sound quality and reliability a stronger motiviator? A short conversation with your coworker will reveal the answer. That being said, my tech of 25+ years and I still spend one day a week trying to keep good older equipment from going into the dumpster. We recently serviced what I fondly refer to as the "Marlboro Man Turntable." A Pioneer belt-drive unit with nicotine stains embedded on everything on, around, and under the platter. It, literally, took Turtle Wax Bug and Tar Remover to get it all off. Needless to say, we’ve seen alot of vintage gear come across our bench(es). Dormant 40+ year-old gear can be a bit of a crap shoot. I’ve seen examples where dirty controls and switches triggered the death sentence for the original owner of a good classic pieces that were delegated to a garage sale and sold for the price of a set of used Tupperware. The pieces were, fortunately, rescued by someone who saw some potential in the pieces, and got them to us. $55 later, the units are up and running. And sounding as good as 40-year-old parts can sound. And, yes, we do performance upgrades to get them sounding better than new! As these vintage units are "exercised", stuff starts happening. Sometimes good. Sometimes not so good. Pushing high voltage heats things up that haven’t seen anything warmer than a hot attic in years. So, you might have 20+ years, or 20+ minutes before failure. The only way to find our for sure is to power it up, hook it up to a load a put it to work. As @lhasaguy states. WHO you buy from matters. In the hands of competant techs who apply their knowledgeable hands (and brains) and put the unit through it’s paces, the risk of (short term) failure approaches pretty close to zero. And you, and your coworker, can still be friends. A valid question for your coworker would be to determine if they listen to off-air broadcasts. If not, then the presence of a tuner is not a priority. The cost and real estate committed to a tuner section can be used for bigger/better parts in an integrated amplifier. There have been many good recommendations on this thread. Vintage and otherwise. Best of luck.
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There is risk to buy a new set of audio components...Total value must be under 1000 bucks for the audio system ...Because my vintage system cost me 700 bucks and is a TOP AUDIOPHILE system... Not a cheap makeship... What are the risk to buy an under 1000 bucks system with a guarrentie versus to buy something like my vintage pieces with the necessary update clean cost ? Simple : with a system costing under 1000 bucks for the dac the amplifier and the speakers or the headphone you can be rest assured that the sound quality will be mediocre... With my under 1000 bucks system i own a TOP audiophile system which deliver the best sound there is ... How in the world one of the best amplifier in 1988 can be rival by a cheap one today ? how the Mission Cyrus speakers the best speakers Mission designed in 1990 , payed peanuts , because old now, can be replaced by cheap box of today ? The most evident case is my TOP of the wo4rld flagship AKG K340 paid 100 bucks... They rival almost anything today...
What are the risks you will advise someone to take ? Buying an under 1000 bucks audio system with a mediocre sound quality , or buying at low price some of the best of the past , if you are able to inform yourself to begin with ?
I dont advise people able to pay for a 25,000 bucks system today to buy a vintage one at low price here, i advise people with not much money to INFORM themselves before buying as i did before informing myself when i bought HYPED NEW PRODUCTS AT LOW COST that were almost trash in sound quality.. If your budget is very limited , inform yourself, dont read reviews by reviewers but reviews by OWNERS... Read about acoustic .... Buy KINGS of the past... Not unknown vintage trash...Dont buy nowadays lost cost gear save if the technology is new as for dac , i bought a low cost very good contemporary dac not a vintage one guess why ? ... But amplifiers , speakers and headphones , this is an other story...Vintage gave the best S.Q. /price ratio... But you must know what you will buy and inform yourself...
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