Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

In my experience cables can only ruin the sound. OFC with decent insulation is all you need. The more money you throw at them, the more marginal and skewed the results become. What you might hear with expensive cables is their filter effect. I like the effect produced by silver braid.

Internal cabling is where any gains can possibly be made. However that should be down to the manufacturer of the equipment.

From op

SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?

Some are, some are definitely not. It really is a matter of discovering what brands out there (and there a lot) offer the best performance for your money. Some are really worth the money and clearly they offer a big increase in sound quality. It seems the dealers you used were not very discriminating about what brands they carry. This does not surprise me since I have found many are not well informed. You really need to seek out somebody who has compared different makes of cable and really believes in what they are selling.

I dont think anybody needs to get worked up and riled by a subject that at best is subjective to say the least. You could put ten people in the same room with the same equipment and music and get ten different opinions, we all hear differently from state of your hearing ,to your depth and spatial perception and ,of course even though it is denied by some, a form of expectation no matter what.
I used to be one of the largest sceptics on cabling there ever was but I realised it was mostly my lowfi equipment that was not resolving enough to hear any difference rather than a fault of the cabling itself.
Now as older age has allowed a little more "play money" i would say my level is now midfi and yes i can hear changes in cables for sure.
Not always better but just changes, some actually have been profoundly worse, as when I tried a set of Anticables solid copper core speaker cables, Lordy did that really mess up the bass big time, they lasted about a week before being returned and replaced with some VanDenHul cables.
Have I dipped into the market for 4 figure plus cables yet? No, will I, maybe, I am certainly not adverse to trying but you can bet it will be on a minimum 30 day return trial basis....just in case!

Personally, I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions about any cables one hears at shows or dealers mainly because they are usually new and not broken in *at all* or perhaps overnight, if your lucky. That goes for cables, speakers and electronics - none of them are broken in at shows. The sound you described is that of many high end cables, speakers and electronics that have not been broken in.

I have heard various Nordost cables in various systems whether at shows or at dealers, and of all the cables out there - they really do have a cool slightly bodiless tonality that has a treble lift. Nordost do a great marketing job in persuading us that they are the benchmark in terms of neutrality - but I am not so convinced.

@parrotbee , I agree with your assessment. Many folks misinterpret emphasized high frequency tones for neutrality.

In my opinion, neutrality means neither the bass, midrange, nor treble regions are emphasized.
Of course Nordost could sound 'neutral' with gear that has rolled off high frequencies.

Parrot, when did I ever say your system is defective?  I'd never use that term.  We all hear differently.  Systems, rooms and hearing are all subjective.  I PERSONALLY feel that cables have a signature sound.  Maybe I'm not typing things properly, but as you said, the Nordost cables to most I know are somehow a bit hot.  Great cables and I've liked them in many systems I've heard them in.  I wouldn't own them, but I fully get why folks love them (or don't).  To ME, that's tonally adjusting a system with cables. That's something that I personally don't like to do for MY system. Nothing wrong there.  Doesn't mean I don't understand why some do use cables to 'tune' their systems.  Maybe I'm 'tuning' using AQ cables that I use.  I have never heard my tonal balance change when upgrading or downgrading within the AQ line.  What I hear is a larger stage, more detail things like that.  If you want to call that tuning, then that's cool and I agree that is what I do.  

Parrot, I have no idea how your system sounds in your room and to your ears (or anyone else's).  Not sure how you turned what I posted into me saying your system is defective?    

I have a Tyr tonearm cable, and some heimdall speaker cables in a system that has a Transfiguration Temper Cartridge, LAvardin IT amp, Yamaha NS1000m speakers - @ctsooner please tell me where my system is defective???
I have heard various Nordost cables in various systems whether at shows or at dealers, and of all the cables out there - they really do have a cool slightly bodiless tonality that has a treble lift. Nordost do a great marketing job in persuading us that they are the benchmark in terms of neutrality - but I am not so convinced. If anything they have confirmed my belief that cables are a tone control

@ctsooner  I'm a fan of Audioquest cables as well.  For me, the AQ line of cables' sound is totally predictable.  As you move up the higher end of the line each step up reveals a larger soundstage and more detail.  The big leap is when you jump up to the PSS (perfect surface silver) part of the line.

An example of the above was a comparison I did between AQ Columbia IC's and the next step up the line, the Colorado.  The only difference between the cables was a PE tube dielectric in the Columbia to a Teflon tube in the Colorado.  So what was the sonic difference?  Bass impact and depth.  The Colorados it was/is.

So in the end, all cables can be used as tone controls. The AQ line just has a predictability about the changes you'll hear throughout the line.

One more example.  I had used AQ speaker cables in my system for years.  They were in the Earth Series and thus were composed of a lot of copper.  When upgrading my speakers, the sound was too bass heavy and not allowing me to hear all that the advanced tweeters in the new speakers were capable of.  After much research and reading (especially here at A'gon) i went to all silver Clear Day Double Shotgun cables.  Voila!  Bass heaviness (mid-bass especially) was ameliorated and the treble maintained its smoothness but was more detailed and open than with the copper-heavy AQ's.  

So...yep, cables are tone controls and are an important aspect of voicing a system.

Well said John and I agree 10000% based on my experience. 

Parrot, not all are tone controls. That’s the reason I am using only the Audioquest cables. They have been the only ones I’ve had in my room that are just neutral.

Sorry, but I agree that all cables are tone controls. You like Audioquest because it sounds neutral to your ears, in your room, with your gear.
Some folks will prefer bright leaning cables on warmer gear, and conversely, warmer sounding cables with brighter gear.
Many different paths to "neutrality".

Probably a combination of all.

BINGO!!!!
Remember, you are not listening to the cable, as the cable emits no sound. You are listening to the system as a whole. You can tune the sound of the system by changing cables, speakers, amplifier, cartridge, CDP, etc.
In essence, everything is a tone control.

Parrot, not all are tone controls.  That's the reason I am using only the Audioquest cables. They have been the only ones I've had in my room that are just neutral. I've had the Odin and other top of the line cables.  If you need to use cables as tone controls, then something is wrong with your speakers, amps or source.  Probably a combination of all.  

As one spends more on cables they are far less likely to be one size fits all - so to speak. For instance Naim and LAvardin can't use goertz style cables due to high capacitance although they love DNM cables - so however much one spends and tries using a high capacitance cable it is not going to be an improvement on the cheaper DNM. So, as you spend more there may well be system matching issues - indeed the more you spend may result in worse sound. 
All said and done, despite some companies saying otherwise such as Nordost (I have some of their cables BTW) cables are 'tone controls' IMHO some allowing more details than others, with various other tonal differences as well.

As the reviewer for Stereophile reported in his 1997 article regarding "the geek meet in the desert" - CES 97, to the uninitiated - "most of the exhibitors have not yet figured out how to get up out of the noise floor." Here we are twenty years later and you still don’t have to look very far to find some professionals somewhere who cannot hear the difference between amplifiers or systems that are still stuck in the noise floor. 

The Wireless World publication of the underlying research is here: http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless-world-magazine/Wireless-World-1978/Valves%20versus%20Transistor...

I agree that that link was real fun. However, it reflects exactly what has been found in other double blind tests. Personally, I was once Peter Walker of Quad fame's guest at a blind demonstration of his three famous amplifier designs. At the time people were arguing that his tube design sounded better than his 303 and that the 303 sounded better than the 405. Against such nostalgia he argued that they all sounded the same, if used within their specification. So he had this rig where levels had been carefully matched (this is crucial, and has to be within 0.2 dB), and you could listen, blind. I thought I could hear differences, but he cheerfully demonstrated that I had not been better than random in my identifications. The norm for amplifiers is a straight wire with gain, and that target has been reached a long time ago.

@randy-11 thanks for your reply.  I think you are talking about this: http://www.analog.com/media/en/analog-dialogue/volume-41/number-1/articles/hgh-speed-time-domain-mea...

I am talking about the speed of audio signal rise and decay as experienced by our ears in our listening rooms. Perhaps better termed "attack", more like is described here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/timbre.html

While you could conceivably use sensitive instruments to measure this in your listening room, it would be interesting to see if such devices can be parameterized to show subtle differences in attack, decay and timbre across a full spectrum of instruments and sounds presented by a jazz or classical orchestra simultaneously. Taken to the extreme, can an automated system be set up to evaluate gear more productively for auditioning and decision making on a possible purchase than humans with trained and acute hearing?

And assuming you could measure some of these characteristics with electronics more effectively than our ears, most of us (except one of my in-laws) don't currently have highly portable acoustic measuring systems we can take to the brick and mortar or set up in the sweet spot on the couch at home to tell us what sounds best and what we should buy or pass up, and therefore most of us must rely on our ears to make these decisions.  I know that sounds like heresy to some, but there you have it, stuck with our ears to sort out all this controversy about what sounds good to us and what doesn't.  

And speaking of bad ears, the link from @willemj is a hoot.  Did most of the participants have crappy hearing.  Had they all been in the artilary division in the military?  Were there synergy problems with the higher end gear chosen, with the higher end amp-speaker-cable combination compared with the budget amp?  Did all the participants run out to dump their multi-thousand dollar rigs for a Beringer amp and an old Sony DVD player based on the results?  A hifi dealer's worst nightmare!

Instead of fancy measuring devices or old men's clubs, How about a double blind cable test where only one parameter is changed and done with all adolescent female acoustic musicians who have yet to attend a rock concert?  I might believe those results...

 you measure "speed" with a scope

- duh

@knownothing 

+2!!
One of best posts I have read so far and actually mirrors some of my thoughts and real world experiences with cable's.
Since moving up the food chain of equipment I have found I can definitely hear a diffence on a cable change. Not always "better", whatever your definition of better is, but definitely different.

randy-11, yes you can "measure" tone, but those measurements often fail to identify perceived differences in "tonality" at the listening end for pretty much every form of audio gear, including cables.  This is why two amplifiers that have impeccable measurements, at least according to John Atkinson, can sound distinctly different to the ear of a listener.

And as for "speed" how do you measure that?

I would generalize to say that the experience of many people involved in hifi is that our stereo ear-brain systems are measuring, analyzing and integrating sonic information in ways that are very difficult for even sophisticated combinations of bench equipment to model effectively or completely.

We are not talking about engineering challenges like, will a bridge hold up a particular load or will a particular battery design accept a certain rate of charging before overheating.  Those are simple case specific engineering challenges where nearly all the parameters are known.

Ignoring for the moment the very real influence of expectation and psychological condition of the individual listener, there are a tremendous number of physical variables that affect how any gear, including cables, will sound in a particular listening environment.  These variables include at least the room, the quality of power to the room, the source material and format, the combination of gear used, the physical layout of the gear adjacent to each other and to the room, the type, lengths and physical layout of cabling connecting the gear, vibration management, the seating position and finally the best-day capacity of the listener's ear brain system to detect differences.  That is a lot of variables to sort through, and probably why many audiophiles take subjective gear and cable reviews with a cup of salt.

Given all this, it is not surprising that some people hear no differences from different cable applications.  But it is also not surprising that many people do experience real differences in their listening environment. My own experience and the experience of others that report big and noticable changes due to changing speaker and other cabling in their systems tells me this is likely a real phenomenon.  And given the list of variables above would indicate that your mileage may vary considerably from others reported experience.

It also says to me that measurements of gear or wires on the test bench and in an idealized listening environment can be a starting place to identify "fatal flaws" in design, but might have very little relevance beyond that to how something will sound to your ear with your system in your room. You just have to try the bloody things out for yourself.

Dynaquest4
Actually I can hear a silver fuse added to the power of my tube amps for about 4 evenings of 5 hours listening, and then the effect just disappears. That's a 1" piece of silver rated at 120V 5 amps. So with interconnects running a low voltage and amperage, burn in is a LONG time. How long? Two years is a possibility.

I was just trying to break out the argument in this thread as it is beyond stupid to argue that the entire high end cable industry is somehow just an expectation bias. Audiophiles with real systems and decent ears hear and pay for the real sonic advantages of modern, well designed and engineered cables.

So I would ask, does the common inexpensive beer in the 24 can case taste the same as a good craft beer on tap?  Yep, by the 20th they do. And this is based upon my own double blind testing.

200-400 hours is realistic to hear improvement in new cable as the dielectric breaks in.

wgutz: hope you last post was tongue-in-cheek.  Assuming you actually believe that the composition of metal is going to change and therefore be "broken in," do you really believe that it takes 2 and a quarter years of non-stop playing to then sound better?  Guess those cables would be out of warranty by then.

Heck, play for another two years, they might sound better than better.  If I bought them, silver cables, and I listened to my main system for two hours a day every day....well, it would take over 27 years for them to "break in."  Little too long for me.

Silver is not bright after it is fully broken in which I over-estimate at about 20,000 hours.

Bruce, the thing is that all you need to do is borrow some cables and play.  That's what I do when I can and when I hear something that I feel sound THAT much better and the price is within what I feel is fair, I'll go for it.  

I feel very strongly that many cables do change the sound, but not always for the best and price isn't always the differentiator.  I've learned that many little changes can make differences in sound quality both good or bad.

Thank you for the welcome and very kind words Dave.

I also appreciate how you took the time to explain a few points, as one who wants to help others share his joy with this hobby.

This is rather effective at making me want to try it, in spite of my convictions.

Thanks Dave.
Bruce.

Hi Bruce. Welcome to Audiogon!

Kudos for your attitude. No one can doubt your intelligence and cognitive skills after reading that post.

However, there are three "tells" in your post. "hi-end audio vs technology", "psychological", "double-blind test". These words are the sword and shield of the ardent deniers OF THE POSSIBILITY for different technologies, design choices, materials, and quality construction of cables to actually audibly affect sound quality.

That’s fine as long as it does not become a blindfold (pun intended) to trying such products with an open mind and making your own informed decision before allowing natural and healthy skepticism (re: seemingly price-disproportionate products that, unfortunately, often espouse unrealistic claims of scale and impact) rob you of the opportunity to actually try and then decide through experience. With the 30day+ unconditional money back guarantees from cable manufacturers these days, there is simply no reason to be satisfied with driving from the back seat in the dark.

If you find after earnestly completing the above steps that better cables do not provide sufficient value for your situation, then Godspeed to you my friend.

Again, welcome to Audiogon and thanks for your post. :)

Dave

When it comes to high-end audio, I am a newb. But not so with technology.

I'm old enough to have been proven wrong more times than I can remember, when I was sure that I was right. It reminds me not to think too highly of myself, as it'll just be a longer fall...

Yet, it is my passionate belief that most of what's written about very expensive cables, interconnects, etc. is B.S.

I find it very hard to believe that we could tell the difference between the gold-standard of these, and what most of us could construct ourselves - at very reasonable cost.

I strongly suspect that it's far more psychological, that the listener wants to believe that the money spent was not wasted. And falling victim to crowd-think.

If a terrorist gave me three options to determine if I live or die; walk across an unmarked minefield, Russian-roulette, or I can live if a group of audiophiles cannot prove in a double-blind test that fuses have polarity (and they can hear it!), I'd take the latter every time.

But, because so many of you swear by it, I'll keep an open enough mind to try for myself someday - just in case.  :)
Bruce.

I swore I wasn’t going to go down the rabbit hole-
I have a main system with what are probably regarded as expensive cables.
But I am still in the process of assembling a vintage system in another room, based on a pair of the original Quad ESLs that I bought in in 1973 and recently had restored. I decided to try and stay within the period- when I used them beginning in 1973, it was zip cord. So, I bought some 12 gauge all copper stranded wire in bulk. The system sounded fine--I hadn’t heard these speakers in years, and had never used them with the Quad II amps, which were also recently restored and re-glassed with GEC KT 66s, among other recherché tubes.
I asked a friend on another forum who had far more recent experience with the speaker than me what he used. It was Canare 4S11, another DIY cheapie that I bought online. The Canare sounded "less rough" to my ears. I suppose I could try the Duelund that everyone has been raving about lately, or a few other low cost cables, but the point is, even among the bargain DIY stuff, there are differences. The terminations make differences too--I used to use bare wire. I’m now terminating with a relatively inexpensive Cardas banana, which I’m sure changes the sound in some way.
To say that cables make no difference is no different than saying "X" brand cable is "the best." There are so many variables that make up a system, and so many differences in what people hear (or want to hear) that it is impossible to make any broad generalizations. I suspect a lot of cable makers have theories about why their cables sound the way they do, but the literature is pretty empty- the hyperbole is far stronger, which makes people predictably skeptical, particularly because a lot of this stuff has reached crazy pricing.
This debate will not be resolved: I think you try what works in your system, and explore within the limits of your interest and pocketbook. The folks who have replaced their fancy audiophile cable with things like the WE or Duelund seem to have gone counter-market and should probably be applauded for doing so. (The longer I do this, the more I respect the capable DIY’er.)
A shout out to @nonoise for some very sensible comments in the audiophile fuse thread- something to which I never really paid attention, but nonoise and others on that thread had some rational explanations about the metallurgy involved; while I’m not going to rush out and buy a box full of fancy fuses, there was value in that thread to me.

One thing that has changed is knowledge about the effects of noise injection.  Some cables in some places will affect that more than others, tho the real solution is to use better isolation techniques.

The effects of speaker cables on complex loads has indeed not changed in the last 20 years, tho many don't understand it.

In either case there is no reason at all to throw $5k at it - which was the point made by the OP.

So, are you saying nobody is right? That’s an interesting thought. You make it sound like a theological argument, that these points of view are nothing more than beliefs. I suspect most of the differences can be settled by experience. Maybe like an epiphany. 😀

We are all simply dogs chasing our own tails here on this thread.

Nothing ever changes, believers will believe,non-believers will continue to non-believe.

Wire threads today are no different than 18 years ago.
Skeptics and believers, no one ever changes anyone's mind.....we just keep chasing out tails. Meh....

Whatever do you mean? It was a generalization re: the futility of arguing an obvious point.

The image of a quacking duck just entered my mind. Don’t know why.

Dave

jmcgrogan2 & dlcockrum:

We disagree on this issue; therefore according to you two, I am an idiot and a pig.  Really?

@dlcockrum , you missed one more:

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time, and annoys the pig. - Robert Heinlein   ;^)

@dynaquest4

I get you don’t believe that cables can make a difference. You don’t have to. I didn’t really either until I tried it.

YMMV.

And no, I am not a dealer.

Wasting valuable energy, ctsooner. You know, I know, everyone who has experience with high resolution audio equipment knows that cables have a big impact on sound quality.

I am currently reading a biography of Mike Huckabee. The author actually writes about Paul Klipsch (he built the Klipsch factory in Huckabee's home town after WWII) very favorably and intelligently. As he states, Klipsch was a genius and could have easily pursued almost any endeavor, but chose audio.

The author also quotes Theodore Roosevelt: "It is not the critic that counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."

George Carlin once said, "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." Nuff said.

Dave 

I totally disagree with just subtle differences.  It depends on what your system is.  Mine is very highly resolving and when I put the Audioquest Horizon balanced interconnect in (it's the same cable as the WEL which is about 9k a meter I believe or something like that), I heard a HUGE difference.  So did my wife and daughter who aren't audiophiles and had NO CLUE that I was able to get a pair, lmao.

...and then the dark cloud of gloom descends...

Dave

Nordicnorm said: “I hooked up the Teo ICs between my preamp and amp. The improvement was dramatic and immediately noticeable. The decay of notes became much more distinct and individual. I was not prepared for such huge improvement. It was night & day.” 

 I’d opine that if the new IC’s made a “huge” and “dramatic” and “night and day” improvement, you must have been using very old, beat-up, falling apart RCA pairs that were smeared with butter and Cheetoes. 

An upgrade to expensive wire should make no difference as long as you were previously using Monoprice quality cables or better. Even those that believe that expensive wire can make differences mostly agree that the improvements are subtle. 

Are you by chance a dealer of these products?

I was curious about higher-end cables as well, so I auditioned a pair of Teo Audio ICs ("Game Changer"), their entry level IC ($500). Teo offers a money-back guarantee and are located in the same city as I live, so I figured if it didn’t produce any noticeable effect, I would only be out my time spent critically listening to my system (never a wasted past time).

I hooked up the Teo ICs between my preamp and amp.The improvement was dramatic and immediately noticeable. The decay of notes became much more distinct and individual. I was not prepared for such huge improvement. It was night & day.

I have since replaced all my ICs with Teo Audio Game Changer.

Likewise, I recently upgraded my speaker cables from Grant Fidelity SPC-2.5 5n ($95) to Pierre Gabriel PGS-L2 ($1,200). While the change wasn’t as dramatic as with the Teo Audio ICs, there was still a noticeable improvement.

Would $5,000 speaker cables provide that much more an improvement? I dunno? I have a modest mid-fi system (listed below), so the law of diminishing returns will probably start to kick in right away. I would like to try a pair of $5,000 speaker cables at some point, just to see if I could hear a difference.

My mid-fi system consists of:

Golden Tube Audio SE-40 Special Edition monoblocks (highly modded)
Esoteric DV-50S SACD
Roksan Xerxes turntable (rebuilt plinth and external power supply)
RB300 tonearm (with Incognito re-wire, Audio Origami SOFC external cable and Michell technoweight)
London Decca Super Gold cartridge
Croft RIAA phono stage
Gustard x20Pro DAC (modded)
Singxer SU-1 USB DDC (modded)
Asus VivoPC (running JRiver)
Martin Logan Spire (w/BC68 power cords)
12 ga. DIY power cords

and... if you are thinking about an expensive AC power cord, buy a power conditioner instead

tone and "speed" are not hard to measure - for speaker cables you need to consider the complex nature of most loads (drivers)

for interconnects, use balanced cables to avoid picking up any RFI and grounding issues

for USB cables the situation is more complex and a 'box' that addresses grounding, noise, and the ability to regenerate a properly clocked signal may have benefits

you really need some IEEEs who work on digital circuits in your family

AND... a double-blinded test with adequate statistical power is an issue for any putative differences "heard"

people who don't understand science are often spouting off on these forums, but worse is they are the lawful prey of consumer fraudists who sell them pseudo-technical sounding gibberish and expensive, but unproven, cables

Ha!  Ought to save some of that KY for all the folks who bought 4K TVs thinking that they could actually see a difference in resolution at their normal seating distances.

LMAO.... now that's funny stuff.

" 5k speaker cables should come with a tube of KY"

That doesn't sound like fun to me but if that's what you enjoy in the privacy of your own home then no one should criticize you.

5k speaker cables should come with a tube of KY!!!

KN, possibly the best post in any of these threads where folks come on and spout science and feel they are right and the rest are wrong.  Thanks for sharing.