Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

" Nothing more to be said Period !! "
If only ... 🤐

I have been in Audio for over 35 years, have owned a Audio store 
And listened to many things.  Money doesnot All ways guarantee you better sound, but system synergy does.   To even think a $10 cable can  match even a $100  cable  is way off. There is diminishing returns with $$ power cords 
But, cheap Zinc  connectors  vs Solid Copper  ,no comparison,  
Now cables proper dielectric, and design high purity Copper vs  home depot copper , for one much lower resistance alone which brings better detail, depth and 
Balance with good quality cables. Cheap  cables gritty,bright aggressive 
Not cohesive. I have done msny tests  after proper 75-100 hours or so runin..
This too applies to speaker cables, interconnects, if you can't tell the difference 
Between a well designed $1000 cable vs one of $100.  Then  you should just buy a $200 radio and call it a day for your ears are shot. Nothing more to be said      Period !!

Like they teach you in boot camp, when you negotiate the live fire course on your belly through the mud and barb wire with your rifle tucked in your arms remember to keep your butt down. Otherwise...you know 😩

roberjerman

Thomas Edison would have had a good laugh at the remarks of the "golden ears" crowd ...

Nonsense. Edison believed in hands-on experimentation - that was instrumental to his success. It's highly unlikely that he'd sit idly by, proselytizing theory from the comfort of an easy chair while others actually reported first-hand results. You might want to visit one of his museums sometime. It will give you some practical insight into the scientific process. Mind you, it can be a tortuous process. That's why so many of the measurementalists here avoid it like the plague. It's much easier to just preach.

Thomas Edison would have had a good laugh at the remarks of the "golden ears" crowd - AND HE WAS DEAF!

Misread :)

I trust your hearing is better than your reading comprehension. 🤡

Not true geoffkait....I’m awful close to the sound I hear in the PSO!  In some respects, I have a better seat :)

iaeles
“The best solution is to attend live, unamplified music and use similar recorded music to calibrate your system. Any system that can accurately replicate the dynamics and air of live music is going to breeze with compressed, over eq’d pop.”

>>>>>Sorry, that makes no sense. An excellent system ( wide frequency respone, high dynamic range) will still sound like dog doo 💩 with overly compressed music of any type. It will still be overly compressed dynamic range wise. You can’t be more dynamic than the source. Hel-loo!

There are definitely instruments that can measure.

I posted this earlier for @shadorne 

An appropriate plain cable or wire is not going to change amplitude or phase in any meaningful way.

This link shows Phase and Impedance for 3 speaker wires:
Bob Carver's Music Ribbon, Rega Duet and a development prototype.
http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/TriWireZ.jpg

If the phase and amplitude change, the sound changes. Full Stop.

Remember what Disraeli said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics"
It's possible to contrive a set of measurement that look perfect. Unless one knows the setup and questions to ask, it would just be more bad information.

The best solution is to attend live, unamplified music and use similar recorded music to calibrate your system. Any system that can accurately replicate the dynamics and air of live music is going to breeze with compressed, over eq'd pop.

Uh, what would you like them to measure? In your heart of hearts.

Yes Dave, but why is there never data showing any differences at all between cabling? Why wouldn’t they "Cabling companies, especially one’s having high cost cabling", show us something? A graph showing induction comparisons, Conduction compared to generic lamp cord etcetera? About the only thing I have ever seen are pics of some of the "Perfect Surface" wire. There are quite a few measurable, quantifiable statistics that could be used.
Typically you’ll see an add or a review, saying say; "This cable is warm" And from what I have read a general concensus seems to be "Gold" as a plating is the warmest sound overall. Maybe it is still in it’s infancy, but we do have available instrumentation that will sow some type of difference. Something besides simple resistance. There is, "has to be " empirical evidence. But no one ever seems to show us much of anything in this realm.
     Not to beat it to death, but the old saying, "Music is the only real magic that I know of",  comes to mind.

Only over time, with familiar material that exploits the musical spectrum to its fullest, can a decision be made properly.  That decision is personal.  Everyone also hears differently and has unique auditory biases.  Perhaps counterintuitive to those claiming “snake oil” is being sold to the eager masses, I rely purposefully on the cable companies who have invested decades in design and experimentation to develop real world solutions to improve the listening experience to those who savor music as if it were a panacea to the everyday grist mill that wears at our psyches.  Great music is a tonic for our souls.  For me, some expensive cables offer an entirely elevated plain of auditory bliss when used properly.  As for the universe of wires that simply try to re-package wires with questionable innovation, there in lies the fools pursuit.  

I agree with you Uber. The "trick", of course is to find what works with your current equipment. As well as with your current sound "palate", which I think is always evolving. And the room appointments and so on. So many variables makes it the challenge that it is and also at times so, so very frustrating..
One saving grace though are the companies and people whom make cables that actually attempt to get audio enthusiasts to try cabling, "For free" And not just "This one or that one with the platinum because it’s the cats’ meow"" But many different types of cabling using different materials and methods of manufacture.
I have never used them, "I make up my own cabling usually" but I have heard several references to Cable "libraries", that apparently some companies/people have stocked with a plethora of different cabling. Maybe "Audiogon" should start one such, "Library". I for one, would be happy to donate a few pair.
But then of course we will need a librarian and a few hall monitors.
Volunteers for the "Bake Sale".................

Would "trolls" be counted as CBLF I wonder though........

Spot on that cables are tone controls, as are components. See https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/it-s-simple

Given CBLFs that are capable of detecting changes within systems:

If you move systems from room to room along with the CBLFs and keep the program material the same, the changes probably will be detected in all rooms.

If you mix and match components, program material and cables in the same room with the same CBLFs, detected differences probably will change.

CBLF = carbon based life form ;-)

@jollygreenaudiophile2
While you can conduct a scientific blind test with the same room, equipment, source material and listeners and just swap out cables that STILL is only going to give you an idea what differences there may be in THAT room with THOSE listeners with THAT equipment and THAT source material...that's it.
Yes it can help debunk snake oil but it is not going to tell you what they may act like in your situation. However if product xyz123 consistently appears to promote deeper bass then yes that is a result that you at least could expect in your system but again no guarantees.
I have just come to regard ALL cables as tone controls and some are more effective than others in my system.
I found all copper gave way too much bass bloom but in another system to another set of ears it may be the holy grail of cable.
it is a really difficult and thorny subject, always has been and always will be.

Split camp on cables? I’m sure you must be mistaken, sir. Everyone has always agreed, ever since Polk and Fulton came out with those really cool cables, what was it, 40 years ago?

So, we have a split camp as always when it comes to cabling.
    But I have a question. How come I never hear anyone from either side of the argument say that they can indeed prove the fact that they are correct in their thoughts on the subject? 
   One side seems to always state that;
       "There is no difference from generic lamp cord to (any), high end cabling with the exception of price". That side "typically", almost always goes on in one form or another to say that we whom believe that there is a difference in cabling are basically, "delusional".
   I know that there are more than a few here on these forums that are not only professionals in the audio field but also hold advanced degree's in peripheral disciplines such as physics, math and chaos theory just to name a few. So again my question is; Why don't we hear from more people saying things such as; "Under MY electron microscope it's easy to see why I can hear so much more detail from cabling made with wire that is manufactured from an alloy bereft of oxidizing agents and scarification from escaping gases. And it's formation in an oxygen displacing noble gas environment had the effect of a much less porous construct. Which I could clearly see with my own eye's had left the surface of said conductive medium clear of debris, carbonized remnants and acidic pitting. Instead the surface indeed seemed like a liquid tube of high conduction.  Instead of an alien mountain range swept daily by the horribly screaming solar winds in that vacuous space we call the surface of that giant red planet?
     But instead all I ever see are responses that say, " All sound that you hear is always purely objective, dependent upon your personal perception.
       NO, it's NOT.
    While objectivity and perception do surely play a large role in our listening . The statement that I made above ALSO is true. And "I" cannot be the only one with this knowledge. But for some odd reason it does feel kind of odd throwing that info out here.
     But I do get tired of having the argument "Or reading it", when I know that there can be a monumental difference in not just the sound. but the entire experience that can be transformative. Which is why I listen and how this became my hobby, and passion, to begin with.
      And NO! Silver doesn't make your system bright, brittle nor harsh. It simply allows more transduced signal to reach your ears. What your hearing was always, "there", imbedded in the signal. It's simply that now you can hear it!  Whether you like that "sound" or not? Now THAT is subject "always", to your personal perception!
       Or so "I" believe.

@chrshanl37  PLUS ONE!

I didn't know Americans had a self-centered view of culture and the world.  My day is ruined!!

I think he is making a comment on the lack of brevity in your posts. 

dynaquest4"Clearthink: I think I am going to grab my folding currency holder, get in my personal motor transportation device and drive to my nearby retail sound and vision equipment dispensing outlet and see if they actually have something called a "music reproduction system." "

I think you are mocking  my language and if that makes you feel better it is fine with me English is not my first language or even my second I speak basically 7 languages they are all different and I don't pretend to be equally fluent in all of them. You are probably American and most of you just speak one language which is a substantial part of why you have a selfcentered view of culture and the world.

Flash said: "I bought 10 awg braided copper speaker wire for $1/ foot at Lowe’s on a 100 foot spool."

Not pure copper at that price, no doubt an aluminum & copper weave. Great for PA, workshop or outdoor applications, but has no place in high-end audio.

@ Clearthink: I think I am going to grab my folding currency holder, get in my personal motor transportation device and drive to my nearby retail sound and vision equipment dispensing outlet and see if they actually have something called a "music reproduction system."    😆

Have I got a flash for you, flashbazbo. High current is not (rpt not) going to the speakers. Problem solved. 🤠

" I did try a comparison with borrowed high price specialty speaker cables and found no difference."

What was the cable you tried?

Less talk the science a bit. If you are passing high current to your speakers you need the wire to have the capacity. This means lower gauge, braided. Yes if you try telephone wire, you will limit the current and is going to sound like crap, filtered. Current travels on the wire surface, that’s why you want to use branded, it has more surface area for the same gauge. Go with fatter wire ( lower gauge).  I bought 10 awg braided copper speaker wire for $1/ foot at Lowe’s on a 100 foot spool.  It will carry considerable more current than 14 gauge, thus less limiting than 14 gauge.  I did try a comparison with borrowed high price specialty speaker cables and found no difference.  You will find that the recording industry does not buy in to the boutique speaker cable fad.  The limiting point on your cables will be the connects, so the argument to not use banana plugs is real, they offer very poor high current pass. Spade plugs are better, or copper wire through the binding posts, tight. 

Dude, you’re following the wrong, you know....

🐑

I believe you can get better quality wires $50 or lower from bulk suppliers to outperform $5k cable made from same stuff only with more advertisement and brain wash. A little homework instead of reading pointlessly reviews will save you week or month worth of income. 

dynaquest4"Well...you know when you pause a CD or up-cue the tonearm on a record and then turn the volume way up? That hiss and other interfering noise that you don't hear at all....it fixes that."
This is an apparent effort at what the contributor presumably believes is a humorous post but all it really is in effect is another snide remark towards those who know more than him and even more importantly have actually conducted thorough, hand's on, scientific exploration into the very nature of carbon fiber including its properties and applications in Music Reproduction Systems. What this carefully conducted research reveals is just as expressly claimed here regarding its inherent abilities to reject substantial quantities of RFI and EMI which have been empirically shown to have a deleterious effect on  Music Reproduction Systems. Those who postulate to the contrary from the comfort of their sofa should consider avoiding making their statements as though they are revelations of fact and instead endeavor to express their opinions while making clear they are only opinions and avoid the belittling of those who are embedded in research.

To be more specific here’s the blurb from Elite Motoring, where I get my stuff. These sleeves look good! 

”Carbon Fiber Fabric Sleeve 1.5"/38.10mm Diameter 3k Aerospace 8.3oz 281gsm. This Fabric is Aerospace Grade. This fabric is woven into a tube/sleeve so you can easily make straight or curved pipes with no seams. These sleeves will expand in diameter if the ends are pushed together and also will decrease in diameter if pulled from both ends. This 1.5"/38.1 mm Diameter sleeve will have estimated range of 0.6"-1.75"(15.24mm-44.45mm) Diameter. This sleeving has a tow size of 3k which will yield a lighter and easier to work with fabric. Thickness is 0.013"/0.33mm. These carbon sleeves have a 34Msi Modulus stiffness with a 640ksi Tensile strength. .022 lbs. per foot.”

- your humble scribe

So basically you are referring to carbon fiber cloth that has not been impregnated with resin yet so is still flexible and for a sleeve is in a woven form.
Interesting......

Use Belden its great and you can jump start your car with them as well.Get cheap stuff and pretend it sounds great dude!!!!!

Carbon fiber is highly conductive thus acts as excellent RFI/EMI shield. Even if the cable is already shielded with copper. Carbon fiber cloth sheets can be draped over equipment for additional shielding. Ooo la la!

Well...you know when you pause a CD or up-cue the tonearm on a record and then turn the volume way up?  That hiss and other interfering noise that you don't hear at all....it fixes that.

Why??
What is a cf sleeve supposed to do exactly?

Whether you have inexpensive cables and power cords or more expensive high end models you will undoubtedly benefit from carbon fiber sleeves on all cables and power cords. Available on eBay in various diameters and lengths, two to three day delivery. If you want one meter select x1 and if you want two meter length select x2 and so forth. See what all the fuss is about.

Methinks this has lost the plot somewhat.
Anybody have any comments relating to cable by any chance?
Thinking of upgrading my Nordost purple flare speaker cable to Nordost Heimdall.
Anybody have experience of those speaker cables?

grannyring said: "... without distain, anger, and condeming judgement. Must we revile differing audio experiences and beliefs?"

Calling a spade a spade is not that.

willemj
The point is that those who are critical are indeed not infrequently abused by calling them trolls, nay sayers, pseudo scientists, jealous, deaf, or impoverished owners of inadequate gear.

>>>>>Well, it’s not as if you are completely innocent. Shall I cut and paste some of your more colorful comments here? Besides, look on the bright side. I’ve never ever called anyone a bozo, an idiot or an __clown.

@grannyring 
Very well said indeed.

@dynaquest4. Your post is interesting to me. Since you have no idea if your claim is true or false, as you have no proof, your comment is more a reflection of an intolerance towards views and experiences differing from your own. Goodness we are all so guilty of this today - myself included.  I do wish we could all respect opposing views and experiences without distain, anger, and condeming judgement. Must we revile differing audio experiences and beliefs? If we continue to assume the worst in others, then we really leave no room for healthy discourse and learning.

The point is that those who are critical are indeed not infrequently abused by calling them trolls, nay sayers, pseudo scientists, jealous, deaf, or impoverished owners of inadequate gear.

Uh, so what’s your point? 🤡

Moderators are clearly on the side of those who spend money on Audiogon...those who tout the amazing, almost magical, properties of the cables, trinkets, tweaks and overpriced equipment sold here.

I’m routinely called a nay-sayer, bad penny, troll, stupid, idiotic and other names that are meant, in a sophomoric way, to be offensive. I never "report them" as leaving those posts on the record shows those members for what they are.

Obviously the mods disagreed with me.... and several others and not the first time and surely will not be the last, that's just human nature.

Then these are the first mods on ANY forum I have ever been involved with that are actually paid! Good luck to them in that case, still a thankless task...lol.

I do not believe my post stated anywhere that they do not do an excellent job.........
And if they are truly paid then so they should tbh!
However you cannot disagree that the removal of some posts does then make subsequent posts and even sometimes the whole thread a bit of a mess as new readers wonder what the heck a poster is talking about if they are referencing a post that has been removed.

uberwaltz

The post in question was not subject matter for removal imho as it really nailed it without resorting to any personal level insults or attacks

We are OT, but clearly the moderators disagree with you.

However the way post removal works is not the best. If a post is reported by anybody it is subject to review by a mod. Unfortunately sometimes rather than actually read it and decide if it warrants removal they just remove as it is quicker and easier. After all the mod job is thankless and unpaid, been there and done that so I do know.

Sorry, but you're mistaken - Audiogon's moderators are paid professionals. I think they do an excellent job.

@cleeds

The post in question was not subject matter for removal imho as it really nailed it without resorting to any personal level insults or attacks.
However the way post removal works is not the best. If a post is reported by anybody it is subject to review by a mod. Unfortunately sometimes rather than actually read it and decide if it warrants removal they just remove as it is quicker and easier. After all the mod job is thankless and unpaid, been there and done that so I do know.