Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?


I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.

Here is how I found out.

After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.

It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.

I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!

SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
sautan904

Showing 5 responses by jollygreenaudiophile2

So, we have a split camp as always when it comes to cabling.
    But I have a question. How come I never hear anyone from either side of the argument say that they can indeed prove the fact that they are correct in their thoughts on the subject? 
   One side seems to always state that;
       "There is no difference from generic lamp cord to (any), high end cabling with the exception of price". That side "typically", almost always goes on in one form or another to say that we whom believe that there is a difference in cabling are basically, "delusional".
   I know that there are more than a few here on these forums that are not only professionals in the audio field but also hold advanced degree's in peripheral disciplines such as physics, math and chaos theory just to name a few. So again my question is; Why don't we hear from more people saying things such as; "Under MY electron microscope it's easy to see why I can hear so much more detail from cabling made with wire that is manufactured from an alloy bereft of oxidizing agents and scarification from escaping gases. And it's formation in an oxygen displacing noble gas environment had the effect of a much less porous construct. Which I could clearly see with my own eye's had left the surface of said conductive medium clear of debris, carbonized remnants and acidic pitting. Instead the surface indeed seemed like a liquid tube of high conduction.  Instead of an alien mountain range swept daily by the horribly screaming solar winds in that vacuous space we call the surface of that giant red planet?
     But instead all I ever see are responses that say, " All sound that you hear is always purely objective, dependent upon your personal perception.
       NO, it's NOT.
    While objectivity and perception do surely play a large role in our listening . The statement that I made above ALSO is true. And "I" cannot be the only one with this knowledge. But for some odd reason it does feel kind of odd throwing that info out here.
     But I do get tired of having the argument "Or reading it", when I know that there can be a monumental difference in not just the sound. but the entire experience that can be transformative. Which is why I listen and how this became my hobby, and passion, to begin with.
      And NO! Silver doesn't make your system bright, brittle nor harsh. It simply allows more transduced signal to reach your ears. What your hearing was always, "there", imbedded in the signal. It's simply that now you can hear it!  Whether you like that "sound" or not? Now THAT is subject "always", to your personal perception!
       Or so "I" believe.
I agree with you Uber. The "trick", of course is to find what works with your current equipment. As well as with your current sound "palate", which I think is always evolving. And the room appointments and so on. So many variables makes it the challenge that it is and also at times so, so very frustrating..
One saving grace though are the companies and people whom make cables that actually attempt to get audio enthusiasts to try cabling, "For free" And not just "This one or that one with the platinum because it’s the cats’ meow"" But many different types of cabling using different materials and methods of manufacture.
I have never used them, "I make up my own cabling usually" but I have heard several references to Cable "libraries", that apparently some companies/people have stocked with a plethora of different cabling. Maybe "Audiogon" should start one such, "Library". I for one, would be happy to donate a few pair.
But then of course we will need a librarian and a few hall monitors.
Volunteers for the "Bake Sale".................
Yes Dave, but why is there never data showing any differences at all between cabling? Why wouldn’t they "Cabling companies, especially one’s having high cost cabling", show us something? A graph showing induction comparisons, Conduction compared to generic lamp cord etcetera? About the only thing I have ever seen are pics of some of the "Perfect Surface" wire. There are quite a few measurable, quantifiable statistics that could be used.
Typically you’ll see an add or a review, saying say; "This cable is warm" And from what I have read a general concensus seems to be "Gold" as a plating is the warmest sound overall. Maybe it is still in it’s infancy, but we do have available instrumentation that will sow some type of difference. Something besides simple resistance. There is, "has to be " empirical evidence. But no one ever seems to show us much of anything in this realm.
     Not to beat it to death, but the old saying, "Music is the only real magic that I know of",  comes to mind.
It's funny,
I just happened to be sitting here, surrounded by all these big "Dewalt" cases. All open, with piles of their contents all strewn about. And decided to take a break. And I find this conversation first. 
 What's in the cases? Well, just all the common as well as uncommon components, parts, plus all of the odds and ends used to build two types of audio cabling. Speaker cables and interconnects. It's been an 'Off and On", hobby for some time now. Ever since I messed up and "accidentally" made a set of speaker cables that sounded so much better than what I had been using that I was literally "Awestruck".  And I still do that to myself. It's fun!

When I was young back in the early sixties I don't remember any really, "Special" cabling. But even then I could tell a slight difference when I changed speaker wire from the factory pre-installed wire that was maybe 22Awg copper to shiny new, 12Awg stranded copper. And no-one "including me", back then would have believed that now we even have power cables that ca make wild improvements. But only, "If you have a system sensitive enough to appreciate it".  For the most part anyway!

 So yes, the metallurgy of the wire, connectors, twist and a "K'azillion" other variables do make a difference.
I guess you'll just have to trust me on that. Me and the other 100,000+  people that know because we all took the "Journey".  And like everything else in this hobby? It is indeed a "Journey".
Have fun with it!

But man,.....After the last three days designing this new interconnect with the new silver plated copper and solid silver conductors I am using. The  exotic shields, braids and piles of "Teflon", and other tubing. I'll have to take a day just to pack it all back up! Haul it back to the shop, And then clean up this mess! Maybe I'll take a pic and post it tomorrow on my 'Virtual system" here so you can see what I am actually talking about!
It's ridiculous!
Ha ha ha, If only I hadn’t made the mistake of making up a set of speaker cables myself, While moving, "Long ago". I had misplaced mine during the move. And after being "without" my music for a couple of weeks. "The way I like to listen to it". And since I was already going past the audio store on my way......I picked up just the basics. "IMHO". Wire, four connectors- "Banana", and that was it!
I put them together the best way that I could think of. This took me about four hours, as I am a very "detail oriented", individual.
Now, Some have, "and do", use other verbiage to describe my ways. But no one ever complains about the results. Just the wait...
Regardless, I finished them and integrated the new cables into my rig and finally fired it up. I did not expect much really. I was mainly just crossing my fingers and praying that everything still worked! And also thinking it would be quite awhile until I had everything "Up to Snuff", after the move into a new home. A house with "very", different wall and floor treatments compared to my last digs.
Imagine my surprise when I heard my rig "open up" like never before!
This with both speakers at odd angles, "I had figured, why waste my time even roughly aiming them until I could hear them".
But the difference in sound from my M.L. electrostatic speakers, just as they were? Was quite astounding to me. And I drooled at the thought of the sound after I had "dialed" my rig in!
Anyway, I did find my old cables after a bit and wondered about how they would change the sound. "They were just a generic set with 10Awg copper. From the local audio store and at a cost of "maybe", $40 back then in the late 80’s. And they were the first cables I had ever used with
"Connectors". Not just bare copper secured to the amplifier.
So I changed out the recently, "Home made" cabling for the much nicer looking, store-bought pair and guess what? It sounded like it had in the old house! "Compressed", But I hadn’t thought so the last time I had heard my rig with the "store-bought" cabling!
I ended up taking one apart, and found 10Awg, "Monster" copper cable inside the cover. and it was all green or black. "Mainly black". But after playing with it a bit I found that indeed, there was still some shiny copper there. but cutting back until the oxidation had not infested the alloy proved fruitless. It was ALL green/black! The entire length! "Except for a couple of places, 1’-18" long", had been corrupted!
After that, I never have purchased any other speaker cabling already made-up. And along the way I made many improvements. I have tried others cables. "Many other". But now? It has now been years since I have tried speaker cables made by another and found them to be "better", in "any" way. Some sound pretty good. But none better.
And this is, of course, just-"IMHO".....
And I was indeed "Until this", one whom called ALL so-called, "Hi-End Cabling"-
"Snake oil"!
Can I prove it? Can I prove one cable sounds different from another?
Yes. I have the instruments and the experience now. I could take "screen-shots" of this and other findings and then post them here and there. Would you believe the data if I did? I think not.
But I have never had a reason to post like that.
I make them still but not for me.
"My sets are Perfect! For ME!" So I have just stopped for my needs. BUT TRY OTHERS STILL!
I make them for friends and a few acquaintances mainly. And I give them away. Always. For just a promise of an honest appraisal. And this over time. And for some I keep making different sets. Trying to "Dial them in" for a specific rig and/or someone’s like/dislikes. One of the questions I always ask is;
"If you had to pay for these? What would you say would be a fair price for them?
"They", tell me many different things. But "they" are all different as well. Different incomes, regions of the country and also world. And also different experiences with cabling. Those whom never really thought to spend a large sum on speaker cabling seem to top out at "about", $200 usually. For whatever reason. Those with allot of experience with cabling and also whom spend sometimes "quite", "Prodigious" sums of money for a set offer an altogether different set answers. "
And these are the fellows that for some reason begin to look and sound nervous when we talk of my cabling,........"Like maybe I’m fishing for some loot"!? Ha ha ha,
But I always assure everyone from the very beginning that the cables are theirs to do with as they will. Free of charge. Always, right from the beginning.
It’s the only way to ALWAYS get an honest and constructive answer!
So, This group seems to give me an "mean average", price range that, "They say", they would be comfortable paying. This, "on the low side of the minimum range being roughly", $1,200
With the avg. max of about, $1,850. And of course, a few oddball answers like,- "At $100,000 they would be a bargain"!
No, I am not kidding actually! But then,"That particular fellow", swaps his main rig’s speakers out more often than the president currently plays golf!
And to be honest, more than a few of these guy’s, "have" offered to pay the amount they told me. One even sent me a check which I burned.

My point?
IF, this wasn’t real. IF this was all just in, "My head".
Why then do I get the thorough critiques and offers of payment. And what they tell me is usually spot on from "my" thoughts on the cabling I send them. "Most are living well away from my domicile so I ship them".
So if this subject was, "Snake Oil"?
I would know by now.
If it was, "All in my head"?
I would have been made "WELL Aware" of that also by now!
So do yourself a favor, and quit saying that indeed this is, "Snake Oil".
But don’t give up. Because there is a very worthwhile and valuable, "intangible", available to you that, "we" keep trying to expose you to.
I could give you several reasons why you have not either heard any difference at all. Or, a difference being of some "minutiae". And therefore not really of any moment. Especially after reading all the posts here stating otherwise. But I am sure you have heard them already.
One or more of them, just has to be in effect.
Maybe look into it?
Because to me? The cabling I use now that I made? A bargain at.....
$1,500!!!??!!
Why would I, "As I did", stop, and write this looong missive if it were not true?
This is one of my ways in which I endeavor to further this, "my hobby".
And help others in this hobby to maybe broaden their horizons.
No more, No less, and Always!
And just to tell you- The cost to build my cables "Just materials", costs roughly $300-$450 currently. Six feet in length is about the avg. length. And I will not make them more than nine feet in length. "Move the gear if needed".
AND, It takes about 36 hours of work. To complete one set.
"Really! (36 hours). At the Minimum! With all, - breaks, phone calls and other time related issues fully accounted for".