Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
So, we have a split camp as always when it comes to cabling. But I have a question. How come I never hear anyone from either side of the argument say that they can indeed prove the fact that they are correct in their thoughts on the subject? One side seems to always state that; "There is no difference from generic lamp cord to (any), high end cabling with the exception of price". That side "typically", almost always goes on in one form or another to say that we whom believe that there is a difference in cabling are basically, "delusional". I know that there are more than a few here on these forums that are not only professionals in the audio field but also hold advanced degree's in peripheral disciplines such as physics, math and chaos theory just to name a few. So again my question is; Why don't we hear from more people saying things such as; "Under MY electron microscope it's easy to see why I can hear so much more detail from cabling made with wire that is manufactured from an alloy bereft of oxidizing agents and scarification from escaping gases. And it's formation in an oxygen displacing noble gas environment had the effect of a much less porous construct. Which I could clearly see with my own eye's had left the surface of said conductive medium clear of debris, carbonized remnants and acidic pitting. Instead the surface indeed seemed like a liquid tube of high conduction. Instead of an alien mountain range swept daily by the horribly screaming solar winds in that vacuous space we call the surface of that giant red planet? But instead all I ever see are responses that say, " All sound that you hear is always purely objective, dependent upon your personal perception. NO, it's NOT. While objectivity and perception do surely play a large role in our listening . The statement that I made above ALSO is true. And "I" cannot be the only one with this knowledge. But for some odd reason it does feel kind of odd throwing that info out here. But I do get tired of having the argument "Or reading it", when I know that there can be a monumental difference in not just the sound. but the entire experience that can be transformative. Which is why I listen and how this became my hobby, and passion, to begin with. And NO! Silver doesn't make your system bright, brittle nor harsh. It simply allows more transduced signal to reach your ears. What your hearing was always, "there", imbedded in the signal. It's simply that now you can hear it! Whether you like that "sound" or not? Now THAT is subject "always", to your personal perception! Or so "I" believe.
Split camp on cables? I’m sure you must be mistaken, sir. Everyone has always agreed, ever since Polk and Fulton came out with those really cool cables, what was it, 40 years ago?
@jollygreenaudiophile2 While you can conduct a scientific blind test with the same room, equipment, source material and listeners and just swap out cables that STILL is only going to give you an idea what differences there may be in THAT room with THOSE listeners with THAT equipment and THAT source material...that's it. Yes it can help debunk snake oil but it is not going to tell you what they may act like in your situation. However if product xyz123 consistently appears to promote deeper bass then yes that is a result that you at least could expect in your system but again no guarantees. I have just come to regard ALL cables as tone controls and some are more effective than others in my system. I found all copper gave way too much bass bloom but in another system to another set of ears it may be the holy grail of cable. it is a really difficult and thorny subject, always has been and always will be.
I agree with you Uber. The "trick", of course is to find what works with your current equipment. As well as with your current sound "palate", which I think is always evolving. And the room appointments and so on. So many variables makes it the challenge that it is and also at times so, so very frustrating.. One saving grace though are the companies and people whom make cables that actually attempt to get audio enthusiasts to try cabling, "For free" And not just "This one or that one with the platinum because it’s the cats’ meow"" But many different types of cabling using different materials and methods of manufacture. I have never used them, "I make up my own cabling usually" but I have heard several references to Cable "libraries", that apparently some companies/people have stocked with a plethora of different cabling. Maybe "Audiogon" should start one such, "Library". I for one, would be happy to donate a few pair. But then of course we will need a librarian and a few hall monitors. Volunteers for the "Bake Sale".................
Only over time, with familiar material that exploits the musical spectrum to its fullest, can a decision be made properly. That decision is personal. Everyone also hears differently and has unique auditory biases. Perhaps counterintuitive to those claiming “snake oil” is being sold to the eager masses, I rely purposefully on the cable companies who have invested decades in design and experimentation to develop real world solutions to improve the listening experience to those who savor music as if it were a panacea to the everyday grist mill that wears at our psyches. Great music is a tonic for our souls. For me, some expensive cables offer an entirely elevated plain of auditory bliss when used properly. As for the universe of wires that simply try to re-package wires with questionable innovation, there in lies the fools pursuit.
Yes Dave, but why is there never data showing any differences at all between cabling? Why wouldn’t they "Cabling companies, especially one’s having high cost cabling", show us something? A graph showing induction comparisons, Conduction compared to generic lamp cord etcetera? About the only thing I have ever seen are pics of some of the "Perfect Surface" wire. There are quite a few measurable, quantifiable statistics that could be used. Typically you’ll see an add or a review, saying say; "This cable is warm" And from what I have read a general concensus seems to be "Gold" as a plating is the warmest sound overall. Maybe it is still in it’s infancy, but we do have available instrumentation that will sow some type of difference. Something besides simple resistance. There is, "has to be " empirical evidence. But no one ever seems to show us much of anything in this realm. Not to beat it to death, but the old saying, "Music is the only real magic that I know of", comes to mind.
If the phase and amplitude change, the sound changes. Full Stop.
Remember what Disraeli said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics" It's possible to contrive a set of measurement that look perfect. Unless one knows the setup and questions to ask, it would just be more bad information.
The best solution is to attend live, unamplified music and use similar recorded music to calibrate your system. Any system that can accurately replicate the dynamics and air of live music is going to breeze with compressed, over eq'd pop.
iaeles “The best solution is to attend live, unamplified music and use similar recorded music to calibrate your system. Any system that can accurately replicate the dynamics and air of live music is going to breeze with compressed, over eq’d pop.”
>>>>>Sorry, that makes no sense. An excellent system ( wide frequency respone, high dynamic range) will still sound like dog doo 💩 with overly compressed music of any type. It will still be overly compressed dynamic range wise. You can’t be more dynamic than the source. Hel-loo!
Thomas Edison would have had a good laugh at the remarks of the "golden ears" crowd ...
Nonsense. Edison believed in hands-on experimentation - that was instrumental to his success. It's highly unlikely that he'd sit idly by, proselytizing theory from the comfort of an easy chair while others actually reported first-hand results. You might want to visit one of his museums sometime. It will give you some practical insight into the scientific process. Mind you, it can be a tortuous process. That's why so many of the measurementalists here avoid it like the plague. It's much easier to just preach.
Like they teach you in boot camp, when you negotiate the live fire course on your belly through the mud and barb wire with your rifle tucked in your arms remember to keep your butt down. Otherwise...you know 😩
I have been in Audio for over 35 years, have owned a Audio store And listened to many things. Money doesnot All ways guarantee you better sound, but system synergy does. To even think a $10 cable can match even a $100 cable is way off. There is diminishing returns with $$ power cords But, cheap Zinc connectors vs Solid Copper ,no comparison, Now cables proper dielectric, and design high purity Copper vs home depot copper , for one much lower resistance alone which brings better detail, depth and Balance with good quality cables. Cheap cables gritty,bright aggressive Not cohesive. I have done msny tests after proper 75-100 hours or so runin.. This too applies to speaker cables, interconnects, if you can't tell the difference Between a well designed $1000 cable vs one of $100. Then you should just buy a $200 radio and call it a day for your ears are shot. Nothing more to be said Period !!
The dealer said that I, as an engineer, am the hardest type of person to convince to buy expensive cables. I told him I didn't want any, that I was planning on buying Monoprice wires. He insisted on throwing the expensive interconnects into the deal for free, and an expensive power cable, too. Yes, I'm using them, and I'm sure it's a marketing ploy so others will see that I'm using them and figure they need to buy them, too. I have even less need for good cables because they're balanced! I'd advise people to spend their money on the beginning and the end of the signal stream which means tuners, cartridges, DACs, and speakers, and then preamps and amplifiers.
geez, I hate too say it but music flows pretty nice down my el cheapo wire and realistically an album collection is far more interesting than a piece of audio equipment? but hey there is a conversation in everything?? symptomatically speaking?
Hey baby, you better come here quick. This old audio stuff is making me sick. Audio all around my brain. Tweaks are for horses and not for men. Doctor said it kill you, but he don’t say when.
The only things that matter for speaker wire: length, gauge and type of metal (copper is best). Cables are another matter. Please refer to this link: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Watch your "dogma". High quality solid core silver conductors allow for more efficient signal flow than the best copper. And no... well designed and implemented silver cables do not sound bright. Sheesh! With careful listening however, those micro details that many high end systems can reveal become just a bit more discernible with fine quality silver speaker cables. And yes, I have had both!🧐
I went up a gauge, from 16 to 14, with Tempo Electric speaker wire and there's not a trace of brightness or etch even though the extension in the highs (and lows) increased. What I have is an incredible see through ability along with a healthy dose of coherence that for once, actually separates musicians and instruments.
It's the same old "hearing things that I didn't before" like a 1-2-3-4 beat on a instrument that I thought was just used on the intro but instead, keeps on repeating all the way through the cut. It can be easily heard now and it's not the least bit distracting, and turns out to be essential to the piece. It was meant to be heard, but every cable I have, including the 16 gauge Tempo Electric SC didn't reveal it. So, cable gauge must be taken into account as well. The same goes for the harpsichord in The Four Seasons: I can now hear every note played without distraction.
I only went up to 14 gauge because my new speakers are 6 ohm and every chart I looked at said that regardless of cable length, ohm rating is a crucial determinate so I took the chance and it played out wonderfully. You'll never know until you try something and just referring to the manual just won't cut it.
When I said "every chart I looked at" I was referring to those that recommend cable gauge and length, factored in with amp output. A few of them left out the category for ohms but those that did, it changed the recommendations some. Example: even though 16 gauge is sufficient for cable lengths up to 36 feet, if your dealing with a 6 ohm speaker as opposed to a 8 ohm speaker, go for 14 gauge.
As for "you’ll never know until you try", I think it speaks for itself.
And as or "the manual just won’t cut it", my personal experience tells me that despite the guidelines laid out by the pros, there’s still a lot of wiggle room in there for something that goes against the grain for reasons not yet known.
You’re not confused: I’m just somewhat a contrarian in some matters. 😄
even though 16 gauge is sufficient for cable lengths up to 36 feet, if your dealing with a 6 ohm speaker as opposed to a 8 ohm speaker, go for 14 gauge.
That's some wild swings on the KEF LS50. I just figured that if JBL rates my speaker at 6 ohms, they'd probably venture down lower than a 8 ohm rated speaker would so best to err on the side of caution and go with 14 gauge.
Also, I'm rarely spot on but it's close enough for the girls I go with. 👍
On the back of my Advents were instructions from Henry Kloss to connect the speakers with a good grade of lamp cord. I used 'audiophile-grade' Monster Cable speaker wire. Then a friend gave me a pair of Nordost Valhalla Reference speaker ribbons. Thanks. These made such an amazing improvement in my system as to make me a believer in Nordost. Lamp cord was OK, but Valhalla is superb.
How does one acquire all these friends with Nordost Valhalla cables lying around to just give away?? I would be lucky to get a piece of well used gum.....
Roger Russell mumbo jumbo? "THE KIND OF WIRE MADE NO DIFFERENCE
It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size."
Absolutely not, I rely on my experimentation and experience of 45+ years.
30+ years here of listening and trying a lot of very low-cost, low-cost, moderate and expensive wire and cables. The type of wire always makes a difference; note that I am NOT saying that expensive cables are the only ones as I'm talking about wire purely here. I've noticed differences between simple wire types that cost less than $50-$100 for the entire pair.
Yes, to me it is mumbo jumbo. One can make all the measurements they want, however at the end of the day, what makes high-end audio, high-end audio is the way it sounds to an individual. Blanket statements do not hold water, one has to experiment with different cable, be critical and honest. Zephyr is correct, price pays a minor factor in cable choice sometimes, it is the way it sounds in one's system that is the "ONLY" thing that matters. Russell's statement: "
There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size."
Is just false ...
Only quote facts. If you don’t think R makes a difference, even a very small R, just try reversing the direction of a fuse sometime. Or even better, interconnects, of the unshielded variety.
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