Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables". There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference. I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables. One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever. Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra! I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
Couldn't possibly come from decades of experience and numerous tests ... and not just with my ears, but with many other ears. I am sure many of those ears were just as "qualified" as many on here.
mahgister2,826 posts07-13-2020 8:01pmSome has disdain for solutions that dont come from them or dont have a place in their frame of mind.... :) not
me, i guess i was an audiophile, because the most important was for me
to win a good hi-fi by my own means only ( i dont have the luxury of
money).
Roberttdid, i dont doubt a second your competence in audio....Not one second.... I know how to read between lines and not only lines...
You know way much than me in audio no doubt at all...
Is it clear?
But you dont imagine or know all that there is to know.... This is my point... And what i create homemade for my system with success would appear to you like non sense.... But....
:)
The cosmos is more vast than we think..... Audio is also a "cosmos".....
I am so happy that I believe what I see and hear, rather than listen to others who try to say I should deny those things. That I must live by their rules because they define the rules for others, and doing otherwise is denying the truth, according to them. They must define what truth is for us, some of them seem very desperate to make us see thus truth, as if their truth will unravel if not. We should be the sheeple to their temple of truth. I’m happy with just being me, not sure why they’re so insistent we must be them
Truth is not experience, object, or opinion, or even concept, it is the emptiness where all there is is »- written on a china wall in ruins.
Those crazy eastern philosophies. In yoga there are the 5 yamas the first ahimsa is non-violence the second is satya, truthfulness. Centuries ago it was the other way around but they changed it. Why would they do that? The first was always considered the most important and truthfulness held that honored position for a long time but followers of Pantanjali kept fighting over what truth meant so it was changed and placed behind non-violence. Doesn't mean anything something that entered my mind reading your post.
Interesting that you felt I was speaking about you Robert. I have the strength of conviction to believe in myself and what I can perceive, rather than bowing down to pseudo experts who yes arrogantly claim to know more than the rest of us and if our views don’t mesh with theirs, then it is us who are the ignorant. It’s ok if you don’t have the hearing skills or technical knowledge to understand your own bias. The world is full if people who truly believe they are the center of the world rather than being open to other ideas, points of views, and enjoy discovering these in other people rather than try to make them conform to theirs
Those crazy eastern philosophies. In yoga there are the 5 yamas the first ahimsa is non-violence the second is satya, truthfulness. Centuries ago it was the other way around but they changed it. Why would they do that? The first was always considered the most important and truthfulness held that honored position for a long time but followers of Pantanjali kept fighting over what truth meant so it was changed and placed behind non-violence. Doesn’t mean anything something that entered my mind reading your post.
Thanks very interesting post indeed...
Except eastern philosophies are no more crazy than western one, they are complementary way of being culturally....
The changes you alluded to was simply a sign in the times (Aeon) to be read like a sign and understood....
Sometimes cultures like individuals collide without understanding themselves in their deep complementarities... It is like that in many forums.... :)
It is well known that bullies call other people bullies when people stand up to them. Given that there are at least 4 people piling on, it is pretty obvious who the bullies are now isn’t it.
You know what is really funny @thyname, I would know absolutely nothing about you if you didn’t claim I was someone else but you did, so that made me think they probably made you look bad too.
Now it all makes sense. I know exactly who you are. You are that dude that runs back to Audio Subjective every time someone dares to say cables are not as important as you believe. People have also accused you of making another forum toxic, and making that forum yet another forum that is mainly about complaining. You epitomize bullying. Aren’t you banned from ANA?
atdavid736 posts11-15-2019 1:45amGood laugh Skerdi. If only you knew how many people blocked you on FB because you weirded them out. Shouldn’t you be running to report back to Ted or something right now?
thyname432 posts11-14-2019 9:21pm“‘’ atdavid, you sure are a nosey f%@*$er. And quite creepy“”
No s@&*%t, you just realized that now? That’s what this guy does, full time. It’s his job. Every single Facebook group and audio forum. He has mastered the art of trolling. Can’t beat him I am afraid
I am so happy that I believe what I see and hear, rather than listen to
others who try to say I should deny those things. That I must live by
their rules because they define the rules for others, and doing
otherwise is denying the truth, according to them. They must define what
truth is for us, some of them seem very desperate to make us see thus
truth, as if their truth will unravel if not. We should be the sheeple
to their temple of truth. I’m happy with just being me, not sure why
they’re so insistent we must be them
Lots of reasons, but its like with power cords, the reasons why they make a difference matter nowhere near as much to us as the fact they do make a difference. The designer on the other hand, in order to come up with better designs it does usually help to understand why these things work. So in the same way it really doesn't matter why some of these people act the way they do. Why matters more to the psychoanalyst or whoever may be trying to see if they can get them to work better. For us the only thing that matters is they do not in fact work very well.
It can reach a point where everyone has tried pretty much everything they can think of, and the choice is either learn to be a psychoanalyst or move on to putting your time and energy to where it might actually do some good. In other words if they can't be persuaded to come around, or maybe aren't even mentally capable of understanding the need, then sometimes the best thing we have left is to politely ignore and move on.
Nope, no cats, but perhaps a chicken? @thyname, are you incapable of using the search function? I am, and I would never have searched for your interaction with other people here, but your incessant attacks, made me curious. I must say, you are rather notorious.
Oh come on AtDavid. I figured out very quickly that “roberttdid” was banned “AtDavid” with a new handle. If one were to simply read a couple of posts from both “names”, would quickly know it’s one and the same person. Why did you have to change your name though?
Gee ... 4, 5 people dog-piling (rather ineffectively).
boxer12, your lack of self reflection is ....
What is hilarious is between you, whatshisname, dandy2, ISO, etc. you still can’t make a reasonable argument between all of you. All you have are personal insults.
Watch ...whatshisname will respond with an insult to this, likely dandy2 ...
Look how fast my point was proven. I must say boxer12, you run in good company. Don't hold it against him though, I understand he has always felt inadequate. That is why he lashes out.
thyname758 posts07-13-2020 11:54pmDid you fix the Internet yet fat boy? How is life in your mommy’s basement? 😂😂
You have no idea what that means. You renege on your challenges and run away when you lose. Look at the 3 of you ... trying to gang up like little school yard bullies. You make me laugh. whatshisname even sounds like a school yard bully. Excellent company you guys are keeping with each other.
"What is hilarious is between you, whatshisname, dandy2, ISO, etc. you still can’t make a reasonable argument between all of you. All you have are personal insults."
To be fair david, you have called everyone on that list ignorant. So there is that...
Please understand that many (most?) audiophiles use there ears as a guide to what sounds best in there system(s). They do that regardless of measurements telling them there shouldn't be a difference. That is the crux of it, & it ends up as a circular argument as those that cannot tell the difference tell those that do it's simply bias, placebo, waste of money, wishful thinking, whatever.
I can tell you wholeheartedly that cables & tweaks make my system shine. Does it sound good without them? Yes... but it sounds a lot better with them in place.
Heck, maybe that is because moving your chair 1 inch will make a lot bigger difference than changing most cables .... but someone who makes a cable challenge and then does not follow through on it, or who posts a marketing blurb about feedback may not know that.
Please understand that many (most?) audiophiles use there ears as a guide to what sounds best in there system(s). They do that regardless of measurements telling them there shouldn’t be a difference. That is the crux of it, & it ends up as a circular argument as those that cannot tell the difference tell those that do it’s simply bias, placebo, waste of money, wishful thinking, whatever.
I can tell you wholeheartedly that cables & tweaks make my system shine. Does it sound good without them? Yes... but it sounds a lot better with them in place.
It is not an argument....
It is better, it is a complete case....
:)
i could tell the same tale for sure for the judge.....
Except i will add for example that there could or would not be a difference if someone add a piece of shungite on top of the amplifier transformer ( that will compress the sound and degrade it at this spot) or if someone add a piece of regular quartz at the same spot(that will increase too much mainly the high frequencies degrading also the sound in some opposite way); but there will be a big audible difference between these 2 .... I learned to play with these differences to reach the potential of my audio system with many other experiments in another different road also....
In relation with the kind of speakers you have, moving the chair will not change the sound in the same way, or on the same scale, that changing "some" cable or making the little experiment i just suggest...Distorting the imaging for example is very different than compressing the sound even if these may be linked....
I will add that my little experiment is more than most argument, because reproducible....Measurable? in theory yes....In practice probably,but i am in no way an engineer....And i cannot wait for them to transform my own audio system at peanuts costs for the better.... Homemade experiments are the road....Listening with the ears and the body is the way....
« Miracles are scientific fact incognito or in disguise»-A Russian clown
P.S. i will repeat here that, like roberttdid advise, it is not a good idea for a beginner to invest big money on cables, there is much false marketing ploys here, and i will add that there is way more spectacular way to imporove the system mostly linked to the 3 embeddings of any audio system...Upgrading for a better design in an electronic component will give also better improvement than just changing a cable.... But for someone with a top of the world system already, rightly embed, some cable can make big differences, for most people ,s system not so much....
Correct boxer, the whole idea of this hobby is the listening. It’s not the read whichever measurements that some one seems necessary, as even the real experts will say that listening is still needed. In the end I want to hear something I enjoy, that’s what I, and others spend their money for. Not because Robert, David, or whatever his name is, decides what I should be listening to. Anyone trying that hard to convince people of something is highly suspect by nature of their desperation to convince. Robert sometimes when it seems the world is against you, maybe it really is you. If the world is trying to tell you the earth is not flat, maybe it’s for a reason. But really I don’t think any of us care either way what you believe. The problem is that you’re trying way too hard to make us believe what you want us to believe. Why can’t you just let us have our ideas, as I don’t disagree that you don’t hear, wether it’s because you don’t have the skill, you won’t hear because you are biased, or simply truly just don’t hear the differences. I suspect one of the first two because I believe most that simply don’t hear are fine with it for those of us who do, as we are with them not hearing a difference. I won’t be trying to get them to spend money on cables that would bring no value to them, and I’ll continue to discuss different cables with those who do see the value in them, and everyone can be happy.
Look at you, dandy, boxer, you guys en-mass are making many more posts than I am. How does one develop such an incredible lack of self awareness and self reflection. As well, you seem to lack reading comprehension or only hear what you want to hear.
Let me type this slowly so that it is totally clear. I have run many blind tests with other people as the listeners. If I have a bias it is meaningless as I was not the test subject. Your argument is akin to you not being able to tell two cables apart and blaming me for the result.
If my fault that my OP comments about company owners and others who made/make their living on being able to hear differences between components helped to devolve this otherwise civil Forum discussion into personal mud slinging, I am sorry. Surely most on the Forum can and have recognized and respected the wise words and posts of Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere. A true gentleman and voice of decades as a professional in Audio. I don’t wish to draw Ralph into this checkered thread. Only wish to point out that there is a significant difference between us hobbyists and the professionals. Speaking generally, professionals in the Audio Industry must have an educated and highly refined “ear”. When I spoke of Audio professionals being flabbergasted by the performance of one particular IC over another, I only wanted to point out the general professional perspective on this subject.
Let me type this slowly so that it is totally clear. I have run many blind tests with other people as the listeners. If I have a bias it is meaningless as I was not the test subject.
You’ve just invalided every blind test that you have ever conducted. That’s because a properly designed and conducted blind test must also account for and negate the bias of the test designer and proctors.
For example, you’ve made it clear that you don’t think the differences between competent cables is audible. You’ve poisoned the well by conveying that to a test subject; you’ve given him a reason ("power of suggestion") to find no difference.
And this is emblematic of many who clamor for others to conduct blind tests. Not all blind tests are valid, and conducting a valid test is much more work than it might appear to the casual observer, both for the conductors of the test as well as for the subjects.
You just raised pedantic to a whole new level. I have done fully controlled double blind testing in research lab environments, and more simplistic single blind testing too many times to count .... which is one times more blind than I expect most people commenting on this thread have ever done.
It's hard to put bias into a test process that involves nothing more than swapping cables. Great thing about that is you rarely even need to level balance, and not level balancing would increase the detection threshold not reduce it.
I am not a "casual observer".
For example, you’ve made it clear that you don’t think the
differences between competent cables is audible. You’ve poisoned the
well by conveying that to a test subject; you’ve given him a reason
("power of suggestion") to find no difference.
This is wishful thinking. Remember what is being tested. What is being tested is that the person making the claim of (usually) a readily apparent audible difference is able to actually perceive in a blind situation the difference. No more. No less. Your "poisoning" actually does not fit typical psychological reactions. Normally when a persons beliefs are challenged, they will work extra hard to prove those beliefs, not fold like a wet blanket.
You can blindtest some little change....You cannot blindtest total transformation because it is plain for anybody to see(hear)...It is no more useful for anybody ....
Blindtest is there to validate (marketting practice) or invalidate (debunkers) some small variation like with a cable...
No one blindtest the acoustic of the same room before treatment and after it.,..
No one blindtest the electrical grid of a house before or after it is controlled...
No one blindtest the audio system before and after his many resonant parts are under controls, even if it is easier to perform than for the 2 others embeddings...
My point is many changes are so evident than blindtesting them has no interest, except for those who sell some product and those who debunk some product...
Cleeds, it wouldn’t matter what you say, he’s done it better. He’s obviously the only true expert. He’s another kenjit. In his world at least, his word is final. For the rest of us though, we could actually have a meaningful convo if he would stay away from a subject he’s made very clear about his bais towards and let stop trying to destroy ever thread on the subject as he has blatantly tried to do. No wonder an older account t he had was banned. Brings nothing of value to the discussion, only goal is to tear down others thoughts.
I am sorry I just ran over the speedbump, but the topic of this thread is, "Who says cables don’t make a difference?"
After 9 pages, that still seems to be lost on you. Who says? I say (and others), but most don’t have the experience and hence the confidence to back that statement up, and qualify it as required.
Cleeds was just attempting to invent a psychological theory (where the opposite is usually true), as opposed to considering that perhaps, just perhaps, expectation bias is a bigger issue than most want to believe.
Who says cables don't make a difference? ..... is this not a call out to challenge the notion that cables do make a difference. Otherwise just make a post called, "Love fest for cable differences", and be honest.
If you think the presentation of facts is pedantry, then you’re confused. Here’s an example of pedantry: roberttdid
Let me type this slowly so that it is totally clear. I have run many blind tests ...
Do you see the difference?
It’s hard to put bias into a test process that involves nothing more than swapping cables ...
Actually, it’s very easy to introduce bias into a test itself. There are mountains of information on this and I’m surprised that you don’t understand that. (I suspect that you do understand the nature of biased testing, and that you just prefer to not have to address it.)
Remember what is being tested. What is being tested is that the person making the claim of (usually) a readily apparent audible difference is able to actually perceive in a blind situation the difference.
Again, you are confused. A proper double-blind listening test does not test the listener, it tests the device under test (DUT). You cannot scientifically test for two things at the same time.
If you want to test a listener, engage an audiologist. That’s what they do.
If you want to make your blind cable test even more meaningful, you’ll want subjects that think cables make a difference as well as those who don’t think cables make a difference. And if you’re really ambitious, you’ll also include some listeners who don’t care - or have no opinion - one way or the other. The last blind test that I participated in years ago did just that, and it made the results even more interesting.
@roberttdid if you are really serious about conducting some blind tests, please provide us with some details about your plan.
The best tweak I have done recently is my periodic ear cleaning the other day. No audiophile should let that slide. At least as good as the right set of wires and ear cleaning kit is very inexpensive at your local drug store.
You are being needlessly pedantic yet illustrating you have not actually done double blind testing and don't understand design of experiments.
If you want to test something, ideally you don't tell the people at all what they are even testing, and in some cases that can be controlled. Rarely it can. We are having a drug trial for a cancer drug but we are not going to tell the cancer patient its a cancer drug as they may be biased toward it working .... see how silly it sounds. We should also include people who don't have cancer :-)
And again, you are wrong. WE ARE testing whether an individual can reliably detect which of two cables is which. That is all. No more, no less. We are not testing two things at the same time. Wow, it's like you really don't understand design of experiments at all. The individual is making the claim They can detect it. They are not making the claim someone somewhere can detect it, they are making the claim They can detect it. Testing a large group of people would be meaningless, as it would only provide a statistical answer, not an exact answer for that person.
If I wanted to test in general whether a cable could possibly introduce an audible change, then yes, I would have to have a large number of test subject and it would only take one person within that group to reliably detect a change for the conclusion to be that it can be done, but if only one person did, I could claim on average most can't. BUT .... I am not testing the cable, I am testing the audiophiles claim w.r.t. cables.
You are being needlessly pedantic yet illustrating you have not actually done double blind testing and don’t understand design of experiments ... And again, you are wrong ... Wow, it’s like you really don’t understand design of experiments at all ... Testing a large group of people would be meaningless, as it would only provide a statistical answer ...
@Roberttdid, I’d respond to your remarks, but it would be hopeless, because you could trot out another gem such as this: roberttdid
Let me type this slowly so that it is totally clear. I have run many blind tests ...
Yes, clearly, "testing a large group of people would be meaningless." Worthless. Inconsequential. Of no value. Waste of time. Useless. Proves nothing. Bogus. Yields no data.
Please let us know if you actually plan to conduct such testing, rather than just insisting that others here do your work for them.
I am sorry you don't understand the most fundamental thing here Cleeds, which is --it is not the cable that is being tested--, it is the audiophile. You went on a rant telling me I don't know how to do testing, but you don't even know what is being tested. Don't now play the victim game.
However, one can make the statistical conclusion after testing many audiophiles with many cables, that most of the claims they make w.r.t. cables making a significant difference in the sound To Them, are just that, claims. I don't need them to be biased or unbiased, because again, I am not testing cables, I am testing whether audiophiles can detect the changes in cables that they report absent visual clues.
It sounds like some think audiophiles are a different species that didn't evolve with the same biases as Homosapiens. I wonder if their visual acuity is as unbiased and special as their aural they would make great eyewitnesses as opposed to mere humans.
All along we were just being TESTED????? This had me traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. Next stop .......... The Audio-Zone!
@roberttdid if you are really serious about conducting some blind tests, please provide us with some details about your plan.
He already did, when posting under atdavid account. In a conversation with Mike Powell:
atdavid736 posts11-18-2019 11:23amI am there for work every 8 weeks approximately, but no guarantees on a Friday. I am certainly in. I don't think it matters if me or Dimora is a believer or not, as long as you are. If you can pick your cables out blind (or between a basic shielded cable and yours) then you have proved they make a difference.
I don't know whether this ever materialized. Mike ?
cleeds, Robert doesn’t even realize when he’s been out scienced on his blind testing theories, he never will. He could and would never settle for a true blind test don’t by independent researchers who could care less about what the results show. No matter how it was done, even if he initially agreed the process was sound, he would find the faults in the methods if the results didn’t turn out as he wished. He’s mad that point abundantly clear. Robert, scientific testing isn’t done to prove a personal theory, it’s done to prove the facts, wherever that leads. I’m sure if such a test were ever conducted, you would be trying to get your hands into it, telling them the “ proper” way to conduct it ( to hopefully get the results you want) me, I’d let real experts decide the most unbiased way to perform said tests. Because in the end, it wouldn’t bother me in the least whatever the result might be. I know what I did was not quite that level, but more then close enough for skeptic in me to be convinced.as I’ve said before, that’s not the idea I went in with, or the result that I expected. I am absolutely convinced that the testing method was such that hat I heard was not altered in any way, and if I did have a bias before the testing, it was towards expecting not being able to hear any differences. The difference is, I’m open to being shown something new. I’m not arrogant enough to to believe that I know everything, or that I’ve heard everything, or that I can pre determine a product completely by measurements.
cleeds, Robert doesn’t even realize when he’s been out scienced on his blind testing theories, he never will ...
@speedbump6, I’m not sure you’re right. I think Robert is a pretty smart guy.
He’s a sophist who’s sometimes here to argue for argument’s sake, but I think he also recognizes that some of his rigid assertions just aren’t supportable. His content would be a lot more useful if he’d acknowledge that a little more clearly.
You guys are literally anti-science. You don't even know what the question is, so how could you design an experiment. Call me what you want Cleeds, but the experiment is very clear, and the thing being tested is not the cable, it's the audiophile. My assertions are not rigid, they are accurate and informed, that is why in another thread I am arguing against someone who I know is blindly based on a very limited knowledge set claiming essentially you can't get noise via USB from a computer ....
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