Who says cables don't make a difference?
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The white papers referenced by kennyc about the iconoclast speaker cables is written on Belden Stationary. Did they pay Iconoclast? Here's a link to Canare "marketing". http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=65 |
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Is it possible that one can be fooled by Canare just as easily as by any other brands in cables? If you're someone who distrusts cable, why would you believe Canare over any other brands. So you are just as gullible as those who would blindly trust high end speaker cable. How does one know that Canare is honest in their marketting tactic? I suspect a lot of websites got paid by Belden to promote their cable and the only way to do that is to bad mouth other high-end cable manufacturers. I mean I've had Belden before than they are nothing more than Home Depot wire repackaged as speaker cable. In that respect, they are just as "snake oil" as everybody else. |
+1 @andy2 Generally speaking, the higher resolving/performance audio chain, the more you”ll hear differences between cables. After reading Iconoclast cables white papers describing what goes into the design of audio cables, I have a much better understand why some cables are expensive: https://www.iconoclastcable.com/story/ (I have no skin in the game with Iconoclast). I believe that if audio cable skeptics read these “scientific” white papers, they may soften/reevaluate their resistive position. I’m guessing that most audiophiles don’t like spending for relatively expensive audio cables including myself, but some/many have concluded that cables do make a substantial difference and use their pocketbook to elevate their systems - often grudgingly and often with spousal resistance. |
@kennycThank you for coming back to the subject of the OP. And, especially, for your clear enumeration of the factors that must be considered in cable design. Certainly each different type of component always has distinct and important factors that must be considered. Cable design is, perhaps, different but as complex. And to accomplish designing a cable that is truly transparent is difficult, time consuming and expensive. And to briefly go back to the critical mass of end users and reviewers, so many intelligent and aware people can not be discounted or ignored. |
Who says cables don’t make a difference? With regard to high-end audio cables: 1) People who haven’t tried the comparisons themselves 2) People who cannot understand why/how cables can be “justifiably” expensive 3) People who resent not being able to afford expensive cables. This can also be further exacerbated by folks who can. Further discussion on the merits of unobtainable/unaffordable cables can also increase resentment. 4) People who have a simplistic view/knowledge on how audio signals in cables work. Many fail to realize the importance of the quality/type of conductor, the effects of dielectrics, the types of conductor weaves, RFI, EMI, and the roles of R (resistance), L (inductance) and C (capacitance). |
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Robert is not intrested Robert is not intrested in true scientific unbiased testing. If he can’t control the process to try to achieve the results he expects, it has no value for him. Also I don’t believe he has either the experience or ability to actually conduct such a test to begin with. Way too many discrepancies in his own statements on the subject. |
i already have propose a simple test.... he does not answer.... My test can be applied by all and is very simple to transform in a blindtest, and to transform also any cable impact.... Scientist dont argue....Except between themselves after an experiment.... I makes experiments of my own for the last 2 years.... I am not a scientist but i know that good faith is the basis of science.... All the rest is marketing or debunkery.... Here it is for the last time: take a bag of micro herkimer diamonds (40 or more around 10gram) and a piece of shungite (100 gram) put them on an amplifier near the transformer, one after the other and anyone will be able to pass the blindtest and guess which each one is .... The shungite will compress the sound, the herkimer diamonds will expand it.... After the blindtest i will give a recipe for other experiments.... Is it not simple enough? The total cost is a few bucks for each minerals.... |
roberttdid Now if only someone had some independent double blind tests that compared competent and expensive cables ...hmm... 10’s of manufacturers, not one public test to promote their wares. Weird huh dude?Actually that’s not weird at all. I suspect you do understand that but in the event you don’t, I’ll break it down for you. You call for "independent double blind tests" of cables, then bemoan that the manufacturers haven’t conducted such tests in public. But by definition, a test conducted by the manufacturer wouldn’t be independent. For the test to be independent, someone else would have to conduct the test. Why do you think more truly independent tests haven’t been conducted? I think there are many reasons, including the apparent fact that outside of a noisy minority, most listeners don’t think such tests have much value. Let’s face it: Blind tests are a tedious and time consuming enterprise both for those conducting the test and for the test subjects. So, @roberttdid, given your passion and faith in blind testing, I have to ask: Why don’t you organize such a test? The pandemic won’t last forever - maybe you could stage such a test at the next Axpona show. |
thyname, "This sophist’s blindtest experiments are meant to test the listener, not the gear." With careful design, you could aim much better. With all this back-and-forth about blind testing, not much was said in terms of methods. Remember the last time you were designing a study? What did you spend most energy on and what did reviewers scrutinize probably the most? Exactly. Not the results. |
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@mahgister --- you don’t understand, I am sorry. This sophist’s blindtest experiments are meant to test the listener, not the gear.My simple test is only that: testing the difference and very opposite effect of 2 minerals on an audio component... After verifying that anybody can use a blindtest to verify his own impressions in listening the 2 minerals different impact... Is it too complicate? You can use that minerals on any cable and modifying the connectors also etc... I always suppose people are of good faith because i am always myself.... |
@mahgister --- you don't understand, I am sorry. This sophist's blindtest experiments are meant to test the listener, not the gear. He has made it clear multiple times. Under both his accounts, atdavid first now this "robert". Most certainly they are not meant to test HIM. So, similar to Mike Powell's offer to him when he was atdavid to visit him to blindtest the cables, he will likely ask you to do the same --- ask YOU to blindtest your tweaks, not him on his own. |
roberttdid Why do you ignore my polite offer to do a simple test yourself ? Arguments are not enough, and arguing is of no avail except for marketers and debunkers.... Scientist prefer experiment first... Or do you prefer to argue? Here it is: take a bag of micro herkimer diamonds (40 or more around 10gram) and a piece of shungite (100 gram) put them on an amplifier near the transformer, one after the other and anyone will be able to pass the blindtest and guess which each one is .... The shungite will compress the sound, the herkimer diamonds will expand it.... After the blindtest i will give a recipe for other experiments.... Is it not simple enough? The total cost is a few bucks for each minerals.... |
Andy, let’s not demean used car salespeople, they do have a purpose. People do need used cars, so they have a real and useful function. Unlike certain trolls whose only purpose brings no value whatsoever to anyone. The fake science (maybe he has a primer he uses as his wealth of information) does more harm than good because it’s being misapplied, misquoted, and misunderstood. he misses the Forest for the tress. It’s like seeing the Mona Lisa, and you’re trying to take in its beauty, and he’s trying to explain why the wrong painting technique was used in the painting. Coming from some one who can’t even appreciate the beauty of the art itself. The techniques are end games, they’re used to achieve a purpose. That purpose is to create something beautiful. If the technique works to help achieve that goal, that’s all that matters. |
BTW, The reason I recommended a "pro-audio" site for you is so you'd be able to flash your credentials around (& undoubtedly impress the heck out them), slap each other on the back about how good Belden cable is, & would never have to use your ears. Perfect fit. I'll always have your best interest in mind david |
I think that paying a premium for cables (after auditioning in your system) makes sense if you have a good system. For someone who has invested in a good system, the cost of an incremental improvement makes sense. I have a pretty good system, Harbeth Anniversary 30.2s, Line Magnetic 845 Premium, Feikert Woodpecker with Koetsu Black Gold Line cart, Audio Research PH9 phono stage, Gold Note DS-10 streamer. I auditioned some Nordhost Frey2s and hoped they would not make a noticeable improvement. Unfortunately, they did. I bought them. Music sounds better. My wallet is lighter. I try not to think about it. I couldn't put in a dedicated 20 amp line, so I auditioned some conditioners and power cords. I got an Isotek EVO3 Aquarius power conditioner and a bunch of EVO3 Optimum power cords. They made a difference, sounded better to my ears. Nordost sounded a bit better, but they are really pricey. I've used different speaker cables in different systems. One of the best sounding systems I've had used a 5 watt per channel SET amp, a pair of speakers no one has ever heard of, and the Mapleshade Double Helix Plus speaker wire. They worked very well together. In that system, the Mapleshades sounded better than any other speaker wire I had at that time for comparison. Anyway, trust your ears, and weigh your purse. |
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Pretty much a given that boxer12 and andy2 are the same person. They virtually always seem to post at the same time, usually on the same or related threads .... weird. Let me type slow .... for you. Your brain has awful audio memory, and your eyes influence auditory perception. Self awareness would generally make most people realize their limitations. p.s. You and pandy have mentioned measurements probably 10 times more than I have in this thread ... just putting that out there. |
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