Who says cables don't make a difference?

His own words in one of these threads is that the goal is to stiffle discussion. Not to have meaningful discussion, not to use actual facts, not to be truthful or honest. 

@mahgister --- you don’t understand, I am sorry. This sophist’s blindtest experiments are meant to test the listener, not the gear.

My simple test is only that: testing the difference and very opposite effect of 2 minerals on an audio component...

After verifying that anybody can use a blindtest to verify his own impressions in listening the 2 minerals different impact...

Is it too complicate?

You can use that minerals on any cable and modifying the connectors also etc...

I always suppose people are of good faith because i am always myself....

thyname,

"This sophist’s blindtest experiments are meant to test the listener, not the gear."

With careful design, you could aim much better. With all this back-and-forth about blind testing, not much was said in terms of methods. Remember the last time you were designing a study? What did you spend most energy on and what did reviewers scrutinize probably the most? Exactly. Not the results.

roberttdid

Now if only someone had some independent double blind tests that compared competent and expensive cables ...hmm... 10’s of manufacturers, not one public test to promote their wares. Weird huh dude?

Actually that’s not weird at all. I suspect you do understand that but in the event you don’t, I’ll break it down for you.

You call for "independent double blind tests" of cables, then bemoan that the manufacturers haven’t conducted such tests in public. But by definition, a test conducted by the manufacturer wouldn’t be independent. For the test to be independent, someone else would have to conduct the test.

Why do you think more truly independent tests haven’t been conducted? I think there are many reasons, including the apparent fact that outside of a noisy minority, most listeners don’t think such tests have much value. Let’s face it: Blind tests are a tedious and time consuming enterprise both for those conducting the test and for the test subjects.

So, @roberttdid, given your passion and faith in blind testing, I have to ask: Why don’t you organize such a test? The pandemic won’t last forever - maybe you could stage such a test at the next Axpona show.

i already have propose a simple test....

he does not answer....

My test can be applied by all and is very simple to transform in a blindtest, and to transform also any cable impact....

Scientist dont argue....Except between themselves after an experiment....

I makes experiments of my own for the last 2 years....

I am not a scientist but i know that good faith is the basis of science....

All the rest is marketing or debunkery....





  Here it is for the last time:

take a bag of micro herkimer diamonds (40 or more around 10gram) and a piece of shungite (100 gram) put them on an amplifier near the transformer, one after the other and anyone will be able to pass the blindtest and guess which each one is ....

The shungite will compress the sound, the herkimer diamonds will expand it....

After the blindtest i will give a recipe for other experiments....

Is it not simple enough?

The total cost is a few bucks for each minerals....

Robert is not intrested Robert is not intrested in true scientific unbiased testing. If he can’t control the process to try to achieve the results he expects, it has no value for him. Also I don’t believe he has either the experience or ability to actually conduct such a test to begin with. Way too many discrepancies in his own statements on the subject. 

You are perhaps right, perhaps not.... We will see....

I am the only one here that has propose a SIMPLE experiment to do and doable by anybody....

Blindtesting methodology is complex...But with my simple experiment we can kill many cats with one stone...

Wow, atdavid (robertwhatever) deleted a lot of his posts from last night. Must have felt they were inadequate or something... Interesting indeed. 

Probably moderators deleted them. They deleted some of mine too. AtDavid never deletes anything 

Well, not surprising if he had an earlier account that was banned, I saw a lot of attacks and name calling. 

Makes sense 

He does not answer about my simple test.....I begin to doubt about his  seriousness....

Robert has been mysteriously absent lately.  His last few posts were complaining that people have been ganging up on him.  Maybe you guys were hurting his feeling.  

Who says cables don’t make a difference?
With regard to high-end audio cables:
1) People who haven’t tried the comparisons themselves
2) People who cannot understand why/how cables can be “justifiably” expensive
3) People who resent not being able to afford expensive cables. This can also be further exacerbated by folks who can. Further discussion on the merits of unobtainable/unaffordable cables can also increase resentment.
4) People who have a simplistic view/knowledge on how audio signals in cables work.  Many fail to realize the importance of the quality/type of conductor, the effects of dielectrics, the types of conductor weaves, RFI, EMI, and the roles of  R (resistance), L (inductance) and C (capacitance).

I purchased a 12 AWG solid strand cable for my espresso machine. The coffee is amazing. Might try some high grade fuses next, without cream.

Id have to agree Kenny. Shamus, try a SR SX power cable, the flavors that will tingle your tongue will amaze, lol. For the low epic of only 10k, you can own a little piece of heaven 

@kennycThank you for coming back to the subject of the OP.
And, especially, for your clear enumeration of the factors that must be considered in cable design. Certainly each different type of component always has distinct and important factors that must be considered. Cable design is, perhaps, different but as complex.
And to accomplish designing a cable that is truly transparent is difficult, time consuming and expensive. And to briefly go back to the critical mass of end users and reviewers, so many intelligent and aware people can not be discounted or ignored.

kennyc,

You somehow forgot to list those who have tried, can afford, and then concluded it is not worth it at all.

Would that be you? 😂😂😂

That would be many.

The cable budget would have to be proportional to the overall system cost. A $20K system with Belden is like buying a Ferrari and cheap out on the tires.  You don't want the cable to be the bottle-neck on the performance just as tires limiting the car cornering speed.

+1 @andy2

Generally speaking, the higher resolving/performance audio chain, the more you”ll hear differences between cables. 
After reading Iconoclast cables white papers describing what goes into the design of audio cables, I have a much better understand why some cables are expensive:
https://www.iconoclastcable.com/story/
(I have no skin in the game with Iconoclast). 
I believe that if audio cable skeptics read these “scientific” white papers, they may soften/reevaluate their resistive position.

I’m guessing that most audiophiles don’t like spending for relatively expensive audio cables including myself, but some/many have concluded that cables do make a substantial difference and use their pocketbook to elevate their systems - often grudgingly and often with spousal resistance.

"After reading Iconoclast cables white papers describing what goes into the design of audio cables, I have a much better understand why some cables are expensive:"

Everybody does. Why that apples and oranges mix would matter still remains harder to understand.

Why do you assume cable skeptics don't read the white papers a few of these companies put out? Go online and look at Canare 4s11 star quad wire the varience in numbers between them and iconoclast isn't enough to worry about.

When someone convince's themself that cables make no difference, I would think that they'd be silently content in their superior knowledge base. Alas NO ..... they continue on for literal years beating that drum. Perhaps they are wrestling with an inner self-uncertainty?

When someone convinces themself that cables make big difference, I would think that they'd be silently content in their superior knowledge base. Alas NO ..... they continue on for literal years beating that drum. Perhaps they are wrestling with an inner self-uncertainty?

Is it possible that one can be fooled by Canare just as easily as by any other brands in cables?  If you're someone who distrusts cable, why would you believe Canare over any other brands.  So you are just as gullible as those who would blindly trust high end speaker cable.

How does one know that Canare is honest in their marketting tactic?

I suspect a lot of websites got paid by Belden to promote their cable and the only way to do that is to bad mouth other high-end cable manufacturers.  I mean I've had Belden before than they are nothing more than Home Depot wire repackaged as speaker cable.  In that respect, they are just as "snake oil" as everybody else.  

The white papers referenced by kennyc about the iconoclast speaker cables is written on Belden Stationary. Did they pay Iconoclast?

Here's a link to Canare "marketing".  

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=65

isochronism,

Yes, he accused me of stealing material that he stole from me.

On the other hand, I do find inspiration in some of the posts I read. I could have never worded it better than you. You made only two small mistakes.

Here is a review of QED Signature Revelation which is not that much more expensive than Belden but better in every aspect. They use a very unique geometry that can’t be found from Home Depot.

https://www.qed.co.uk/qed-revelation-cable.html#tab1

That means I'm improving! 😊

Here’s a perfect example of someone who is an expert in his field, knows and understands measurements, but in the end his ears told him the story, Paul McGowan

Synergy between components is not just a series of compromises made to elicit great results. Sometimes the mixing and matching of equipment has a magic to it that simply cannot be reproduced any other way.

Take for example Octave Record’s Studer 32 track analog mixing board. When we first bought this Neil Young-owned board, Gus and I were determined to rebuild it. The circuitry is all based on the venerable NE 5532 op-amps that I have written about before. This warhorse amplifier circuit has been around as long as I can remember. We first used it in the early 1980s when we launched our first CD player. In the meantime, many fine modern op-amps have been designed and released, some revered by audio aficionados as being light years better than the old 5532. Surely, it was time to refresh this beauty of a mixing board.

Since the Studer’s op-amps are socketed, it was an easy task to swap out the 5532s for newer op-amps with far better specs. Then the listening tests began. We had about five choices of op-amps installed in different channels and Gus played for me a series of great recordings we were both familiar with through each. The test was totally blind as I had no idea of what versions of amplification we were listening to, but one by one we went through all the choices.

In the end, the 5532 won, hands down. Clearly, it was the synergy between all the components in the chain the engineers at Studer had achieved that made the magic. If one were to have looked at specs alone, this amp would have been last on the list.

It can be difficult at times to accept what we hear, but it’s always best to trust our ears.

TI still produces the NE 5532. Good measuring op-amp. 

Every now and then, I imagine that engineers at Texas Instruments or other serious businesses shrug their shoulders reading expert opinions on Audiogon and similar fora.

“Continue to beat the drum... why?” To paraphrase. It is, obviously, a controversy. The prejudice surely goes both ways. However, those who are opposed to expensive cables ignore the fact that cables are an established part of our Industry. A direct analogy escapes me but, loosely, is a Chevy just as good as a Rolls Royce. Yes, they both transport and do a good job but, obviously, the Roller does so in a considerably more sophisticated manner. Is it worth the money? Quality and value is in the ear of the beholder.

I can't argue with that if you want an expensive cable as statement pieces and want to splurge on them it's not my money. 

Yet, these people who do not believe in cables, spend all their time in the cable forums. For some unexplainable reason. It’s like a devout Muslim spending all their time in wine connoisseur forums. That would be really weird. And strange.

This is true thyname, it does seem strange. To me it seems that they’re not so much trying to convince us, but trying to convince themselves. It’s like they guy driving the Chevy posting in every rolls forum that there is no difference between a rolls and a Chevy, or pick any brand of car. There’s die hard Ford fans who would tell him there’s no comparison to the fords. There’s probably merit in them all, at their respective price points, and some people will never like certain ones. If you can’t afford a rolls, it’s a moot point, but I certainly do t begrudge those who can and do. I’m happy they’re happy. 

What happened to Robert?  Haven't seen him posting lately.  Did he get banned?  

I tell you the truth @speedbumb6. The reason why these characters spend their time in all cable forums, their entire life. They are here to save the poor souls from the evil of cable makers 😂. Like good Samaritans, or missionaries.

Robert told me this. Back then when he was posting under @atdavid fake account. He specifically told me that I cannot be saved. He was there to save the others, according to him hundreds of newbies who he believes are out there, silently reading these forums. And that’s the truth my friend. That’s why they are in all cable forums. The crusade runs very deep!

And @andy2  don’t worry, he is probably busy fighting his holy war somewhere else, in other Audio forums and Facebook. I am 100% sure. He is a full time missionary. Or crusader. And if he is indeed banned (I don’t blame Audiogon for banning him, he never buys or sell anything here to make them a single dime), he will eventually resurface under a different fake account. Which again, I will easily spot, like this time with AtDavid becoming “Robert”

somewhere in this thread,,I may have posted such and such, saying stuff like yeah ~~snakeoil~~, 
But like the old Monkeys song
**I'm a  believer,, yeah yeah**
High Fidelity,,in sucha  humble looking interconnect,,,no bells, whistles, just straight shooting musicality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5yfgu627MA

I can't argue with that if you want an expensive cable as statement pieces and want to splurge on them it's not my money.



Ya know, good miney will get you a good car = Mercedes Benz,,,,,,as for Interconnects,,, big money on interconnects,,might result in a drain on your audiophile budget
I've found my Gold Standard with the ebayer DIY geek , navships. 

I hada  hunch, his cables might help me out..and wow, after cking dozens of cables online, (most prices scared me off))  my intuition piad off. 

I did get a nice thick, oxygen-free copper PC for my amp, the PC that came with it was like a lamp PC, if you know what I mean. Speaker cables? So much craziness!! They have to be off the floor! They have to be EXPENSIVE!! I honestly think going all battery power, no AC power, would make a difference. But as said before, the HIGHEST PROFIT ITEM: speaker cables!  

For giggles I read through 6 pages of this thread (slightly more than halfway).  After that six pages I really saw only two posters who could competently describe / explain the physics of electricity and electrical engineering:  roberttdid and georgemgraves.  Everything else was simply empty rhetoric.  

Are there any posts from someone else on pages 7-11 that fall into the realm of actual informed knowledge (versus empty rhetoric) that would justify reading further?

Not really pfhjvb0. Just a bunch of silly nonsense, very few on this site are interested in how any of these things work just subjective "but but it sounds better" with no controls involved or explanation as to how.