It would be more interesting if this was all done blind to eliminate sight bias. Get some friends over who have good poker faces and have them do the deeds. If indeed the improvement is HUGE shouldn't matter.
Who's Gone Topless?
The idea of this goes back decades. Amps and preamps (for the most part) are designed on chassis free breadboards, then voiced, THEN are packaged inside a chassis, which can be the weakest link to hearing what the designer intended. In most cases the chassis sidewalls and bottom are essential, but the top?
First off, beware that doing so will likely affect your mfg warranty, but, if you live in a pet-free, child-free home, then the benefits can more than offset concerns about something getting in that could harm the components. Case in point my Ric Schultz Class D EVS 1200, dual mono IcePower 120as2 modules. HOWEVER, unlike others using the same or similar modules, Ric then sprinkles many decades of modifying pixie dust all around them which are mounted inside an understated (sans bling) Italian sourced chassis.
When I ordered mine it was mandatory to purchase 2 Cubes ($200) which are to be butted up against each board, requiring the owner to remove the top. After doing so, I was anxious to put it in my rack so I could properly isolate it from bad vibes, when I should have listened with and without the Cubes and top.
Ric is also a proponent of weighing down components, but due to the unnecessarily large chassis, it barely fit in my rack, but I had a 5 pound divers belt lead weight that I squeezed in. Now, because RIc chose to put the mute toggles on the back I placed the amp on the first shelf from the rack's top (but out of sight out of mind: I never mute it when done listening), upon which was my CD player/Transport, which I raised up to provide ~ 2" of air space above the top of the 1200 and the bottom shelf of the player. Even though the rack is open on all sides with plenty of air space all around the rack, the amp ran warm
Fast Forward to yesterday. I was listening to Leonard Cohen Essential songs, mostly instrumentally sparse. I removed the weight; and found the music much more open sounding. Encouraged, I FINALLY removed the top. Honestly, I was not prepared for how HUGE doing so could be. It was like the music went from a confined space to an open air 3 dimensional venue. This is so amazing that I am going to get a handle on it via different music before removing the Cubes. Oh, and the amp is now cool as can be.
So, if interested, stay tuned
First off, beware that doing so will likely affect your mfg warranty, but, if you live in a pet-free, child-free home, then the benefits can more than offset concerns about something getting in that could harm the components. Case in point my Ric Schultz Class D EVS 1200, dual mono IcePower 120as2 modules. HOWEVER, unlike others using the same or similar modules, Ric then sprinkles many decades of modifying pixie dust all around them which are mounted inside an understated (sans bling) Italian sourced chassis.
When I ordered mine it was mandatory to purchase 2 Cubes ($200) which are to be butted up against each board, requiring the owner to remove the top. After doing so, I was anxious to put it in my rack so I could properly isolate it from bad vibes, when I should have listened with and without the Cubes and top.
Ric is also a proponent of weighing down components, but due to the unnecessarily large chassis, it barely fit in my rack, but I had a 5 pound divers belt lead weight that I squeezed in. Now, because RIc chose to put the mute toggles on the back I placed the amp on the first shelf from the rack's top (but out of sight out of mind: I never mute it when done listening), upon which was my CD player/Transport, which I raised up to provide ~ 2" of air space above the top of the 1200 and the bottom shelf of the player. Even though the rack is open on all sides with plenty of air space all around the rack, the amp ran warm
Fast Forward to yesterday. I was listening to Leonard Cohen Essential songs, mostly instrumentally sparse. I removed the weight; and found the music much more open sounding. Encouraged, I FINALLY removed the top. Honestly, I was not prepared for how HUGE doing so could be. It was like the music went from a confined space to an open air 3 dimensional venue. This is so amazing that I am going to get a handle on it via different music before removing the Cubes. Oh, and the amp is now cool as can be.
So, if interested, stay tuned
143 responses Add your response
I've been running one of my preamps without the top case on for a few days. I had a tube go bad and am waiting for the replacement, using the stock tubes for now. It's a pain to take off and on due to location. I don't notice any sonic difference, other than that the stock tubes sound really good and haven't had any of the issues I've had with NOS tubes. |
nes51 It would be more interesting if this was all done blind to eliminate sight bias.You must be joking. There's nothing at all interesting about conducting double-blind testing. It's a time-consuming, tedious process to do properly. That's the reason so few audiophiles have an interest in blind testing, and it puzzles me how often those who pretend to favor such tests suggest that it's others who should conduct them. |
I've done this for years. From my first phono amp in 1987. Absolutely makes a difference. Maybe it's the way my tubes are on their side but removing the steel lid opens up the sound. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/1593 |
djones, not thinking things through again:
It puzzles me why anyone declares HUGE changes without taking into account human biases. Really? Why? Could it be, because you don't understand the difference between someone relating their individual personal experience and the release of a statistically valid peer reviewed article in Nature? Now "I think there was a slight improvement but I have no way to verify" , elicits no response from me. I see. So you're here for all the.... lack of information. You would be content to come here and read page after page of vague useless pabulum. Well that does explain a lot. Yes it certainly does. If only there were some way to verify.... |
Why do manufacturers put products out that are not good enough, but require someone to pay the price and do it her/himself? Why just not buy a better product from the start? What does it mean... "When I ordered mine it was mandatory to purchase 2 Cubes ($200) which are to be butted up against each board, requiring the owner to remove the top."? Why would $400 not be included in the price and factory pre-installed? Who sells this? LEGO? IKEA? |
Interesting subject. I'm from the "everything makes a difference" camp...be that good or bad; but I do wonder about this. In particular, over the years I have seen certain preamps with acrylic tops installed to show the pretty innards. A Klyne pre comes to mind; and I've wondered if that incidentally has any audible effect on the way that it sounds. |
Roxy..my breaker box is in my audio room 40 feet from my transformer in the side yard. With 2 audio friends in attendance it was clear to me after them saying what ever I was doing is making a nice change..taking the panel off and then putting it back on as the music played. 10 years ago or there about that was. Tom |
Interesting subject. I'm from the "everything makes a difference" camp...be that good or bad; but I do wonder about this. In particular, over the years I have seen certain preamps with acrylic tops installed to show the pretty innards. A Klyne pre comes to mind; and I've wondered if that incidentally has any audible effect on the way that it sounds. Of course it does. The reason is vibration control. The minute you start running a music signal through anything the whole thing starts vibrating. Its not only speakers, turntables- everything. This is why its so wrong to think of vibration control as isolation. Its not about isolation. Even somehow perfectly isolated you still have the problem of vibration generated internally within the component itself. There are all different ways of controlling vibration. One is with mass. Adding dive weights literally results in a more tightly controlled presentation with greater bottom end foundation. You could call it weightier. If you wanted to be clever. Or accurate. Opening the component up by removing the top will, uh, open up the sound. Just like the OP heard. This is not by the way conjecture. I've actually tried all this stuff. Heck you can see the blue dive weights on top of the Oppo player in my system. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 They're there not because they're perfect, but because they're good enough. Its digital. Who cares? Never gonna sound good anyway. Good enough's good enough. Long before the dive weights were on the Oppo they were on the Aronov. https://www.theanalogdept.com/c_miller.htm Notice the top and sides of the Aronov are removed. I listened to it both ways, it sounded better this way. Notice they are not on the Melody. That's because its about vibration control. Like tuning a violin, no one can tell you what to do by remote control. Of course it will sound different with an acrylic top compared to metal. Or wood- or none. Which is better? You just have to try it, listen, adjust, listen, compare, and listen and tweak and listen some more. There is no substitute. |
| Post removed |
Really? Why? Could it be, because you don't understand the difference between someone relating their individual personal experience and the release of a statistically valid peer reviewed article in Nature?I understand the difference between unsubstantiated subjective claims and verifiable objective phenomena. I see. So you're here for all the.... lack of information. You would be content to come here and read page after page of vague useless pabulum. I'm here for real information not vague useless nonsense about removing case covers and hearing A HUGE improvement in my stereo. If one says I believe there was a slight improvement then it could fly under the radar but to claim HUGE improvements should be fairly easy to quantify. Record a song with top on then off, Post a link the recording, HUGE improvements should be easily heard on my laptop. |
djones51 I'm here for real information not vague useless nonsense about removing case covers ...This is a hobbyist's group, so it seems fair to me that that people are allowed to post the results of what they hear. Why should anyone be obligated to conduct tests to satisfy you? After all, you're free to conduct your own tests. |
Hi, equipment cases do have a negative effect if not designed properly. Besides that some carry ferrous particles for a reason or not (easy to realise when placing a magnet on them). If too resonant, chassis resonance may be reduced by something like a sheet of EAR Soundcoat or similar. Vibration control is another topic and more elaborate to deal with. |
I’m here for real information not vague useless nonsense about removing case covers and hearing A HUGE improvement in my stereo. Not thinking it through again. Do you even read what’s written? Or is that too inconvenient in your rush to deny and deride? Nobody said they heard a huge improvement in your stereo. They heard it in theirs. This is information. Good solid useful information. Which you then mock and deride. Because, reasons. You require everyone prove it. Prove what? Their experience! Prove it to who? To you! But you have a record of being in denial of other people’s experience. So why would they waste their time? The truth is people are lucky to have a place to come and learn. What do people learn? That changes make a difference, we can learn to hear them, and over time use this to improve our systems. You come along and say, "Prove it!" No, djones, you prove it. You prove how it is that your constant denial has any value here whatsoever. You prove it. Until you can come back to us with a statistically valid peer reviewed double blind study showing the relevance of statistically valid peer reviewed double blind studies! |
Whatever. Different subject. Point is, the OP heard it. The question of why, of what exactly is responsible or the cause, is a completely separate issue from the fact a difference is heard. djones is not saying prove to me its vibration control and not something else going on. djones is saying prove to me you heard a difference. Nobody can do that. How would they? Why would they even try? Least of all to him?! |
"...biases and placebo have been understood in science for decades."They have been noticed and accepted, but not all have been fully understood. At the same time, if someone feels there is a huge improvement in whatever they do to their amplifier, more power to them. I would not want to clean all the dust that settles on what used to be covered. That dust may negatively influence the sound and negate all the improvements gained by removing the cover. I still do not understand why a person simply would not buy a better piece of equipment to begin with. Who has time to unscrew the cover, store the cover, clean the dust, and maybe something else? Do iPhones work better with different covers? |
djones511,723 posts04-27-2020 2:37pm If we don’t try to understand why then what’s the point? I guess we’re here to...read page after page of vague useless pabulum.Based on participation on these forums, "we" seem to be fairly satisfied with the group, so please speak for yourself rather than pretend to speak for others. If you’re not interested in what you read here, perhaps this isn’t the best group for you. |
@cleeds Why do you need your eyes to listen to music? Why are you so against people confirming if they HEAR a difference by just using their ears and not knowing what changed ahead of time? You realize that whatever you did to reach your subjective "conclusions" with your eyes open...you can do with your eyes closed...right??? Are you saying that the placebo effect doesn't exist? Confirmation bias? Do any claims that have no justification in physics or engineering require no extra measures of verification? Or do you just believe anything you read online and hide behind virtue signaling logic about "it's not my place to say anything". It's clueless, gullible, and non science believing people that spawn snake oil salesmen in countless industries. You merely have to read it on a forum to believe it. Plus, you'll even run to your keyboard to defend the person if anyone asks for more scientific verification. |
There’s no, "scientific verification", for 90 to 95% of what exists, in our universe. We know it’s there, but- we can’t see it, touch it, taste it, hear it or smell it. Yet; we know it’s there, because IT’S gravity is holding THIS universe, together (theoretically). OH, YEAH: and something else (perhaps), that fits the same description, is also pushing/pulling it apart/accelerating it’s expansion (theoretically). |
Without getting into the rollicking fun of debating who should be responsible for double blind testing of observations posted on Agon, I thought someone should point out another possible reason why removing the top could make a sonic difference: temperature. If the box doesn't let enough air circulate, the components may be running warm, or may undergo thermal fluctuations that audibly affect the signal. |
Periodically, I turn off the topless power amp. I cover it with a t-shirt while vacuuming the carpet, and leave it there for a few minutes, before removing. I use a small carbon fiber brush (with power cord disconnected) moistened with anti-static spray to hit the inside of the amp, as it sits below a ceiling vent for heat/a.c. A minute well spent. |
Cleeds Misdeeds is what you may have to rename your post. I think you just having some fun. Good job too as you have sucked in quite a few folks! I live in Arizona. Dust capital of the world. Would I need the Pixie dust sprinkles as well? I would hope any manufacturer uses the entire box to control/limit electrical interference and unwanted vibrations as well as flotsam. Lejonklou, a very small Swedish amp maker, has specs for EACH individual screw that holds his lid in place. He claims it makes an audible difference. My ears are past that I'm sure but the point is the lid does matter. So if yours sounds better removed I am inclined to be suspect of this maker. My suggestion, after an adult beverage is to take Ron's Weighing Down idea a step further. Using 20 lb barbells attached to your unit, take it very carefully to a Bridge over troubled waters and let you troubles just fall away!! |
@djones- Shows what you, "science" buffs know. For anyone, actually interested in the facts, regarding what we don’t know, regarding this universe: https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy Then, there’s this theory: https://www.newscientist.com/question/are-there-multiple-universes/# Perhaps, this: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/string-theory-about-unravel-180953637/ or, this: https://phys.org/news/2018-03-universe-hologram-mind-blowing-theories-theoretical.html Those are all postulations/propositions, from qualified Physicists. No one can accurately measure what’s going on. Thus far, there are only theories, far as what’s taking OR taken place, in this universe and all that’s offered, are estimates/guesses/equations. |
