Which DACs are known to be sweet/rich/relaxed?

@wokeuptobose thanks for sharing your journey, very valuable lessons.
Could you elaborate on what the Pacific does better than other DACs you've had? What do you like about it? And what are any weak points or trade-offs?

Thanks for all the input guys. Apart from all the advise on equipment, I start to realise:

— When a system is highly resolving, it will expose recordings that are bright and harsh. It's actually a good thing. Over 95% of recordings sound wonderful, it's only harsh/bright with certain older (rock) recordings and at high volumes >85dB.

— My room is large and not heavily treated. Playing music loud will overload the room: at 80dB the reflections make up, say, only 15% of what reaches my ear. At 90dB that could be 30 or 40% (numbers here are for the sake of example).

Further, I don't really have side walls and thus hardly any first reflections. My right side wall is 9' / 2.7m away from the speaker (floor to ceiling windows with thick curtain). My left side wall is also 9' / 2.7m away but it's only 8' / 2.4m long, it then opens up to a large open kitchen. Rear wall is 13' / 4m behind listening position. Half of it opens up to a large study area.
Only first reflections are floor (covered by rug) and ceiling. I'm looking into absorption panels for the ceiling now.

@robert1976 

I have a Tambaqui and in my system I would describe it as “sweet, rich, and relaxed”. Although sometimes “sweet” is not so “relaxed” when it comes to musical enjoyment!

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/is-your-cat6-a-dog.htm
After reading this article from Blue Jeans Cable, I decided to try a few of their CERTIFIED Cat6e Ethernet cables. Prior to installing these my streaming was occasionally harsh and distorted. But never since. I have also found I prefer Audioquest Red River XLRs to several 4 figure cables, which also were sometimes a little non-sweet. 

Not a huge investment and heartily recommended. 

Good Luck!

I was on a similar journey, Naim streamer/DAC to dCS Bartok with Oppo 205 Modwright DAC as an option, then to a dCS Vivaldi Stack, and very happily to a Grimm MU1 streamer/storage/upsampler with a Lampizator Pacific DAC. You might want the GG2 over the Pacific as the GG2 is designed for a fun big sound. The Pacific seems to be showing off that like ARC's recent designs that both companies can design equipment that casts off the "old" tube sound and competes with the best of SS designs, but also includes that "tube thing" . Do not underestimate the Grimm MU1's part in my sound system. I listened to an in home demo and it took me 15 mins to decide that the Grimm was contributing in a positive way that the Vivaldi Upsampler could not match.

Lots of good ideas already posted. One is that all DACs sound alike and just get a reasonable one and that's all you need. I have found this is "sort of true" depending on the resolution of the host system and hearing of the listener. About 5 months ago for fun I ran my dCS Vivaldi DAC/upsampler/Clock (75K retail) against the DAC/streamer in my $1300 retail MiniSHD I use  it to crossover my subs and for Dirac. Long story short the $1300 multifunction DAC was WAY too close to the sound of the 75K Vivaldi. CLEARLY the Vivaldi was better, but the law of diminishing returns on DACs sets in very quickly. Many of us can't settle for good enough without not feeling good about our systems, and that is why I ended up with the Grimm/Pacific combo. I'd also like to comment on the rate of improvement of Digital and the reasonable expectation the gear will get better AND get less costly. I sold my dCS gear, bought the Grimm (new), the Lampizator used,  and after selling my dCS gear and buying the other two components I was able to put 25K back into my stereo fund and ended up with a digital system I find way more musically engaging.  There is no question that in 2013 dCS changed the trajectory for Digital sound reproduction with the Vivaldi DAC, but time and technology move forward. Further I do not sense that I gave up any resolution moving from the Vivaldi DAC to the Pacific DAC, which was my primary concern in moving to the Lampizator. The new APEX for Vivaldi dCS DAC was not out then. I expect it is more musical than the one I had. 

The last point about ideas others shared is that I used to use cables to tune my system, often for me to solve a sibilance issue. I used to do that, but I now work really hard to get components that work together in the first place, then look at cable changes to make IMPROVMENTS  in SQ, not as filters to fix problems, It's a paradigm change that costs money to make component changes and potentially buy better gear, but it has helped my system improve to my ears. This changing out of components has been made possible by Audiogon and the other websites. It's  a fantastic tool, we are in the golden age of being able to try different gear in our houses!!!! Good luck in your journey!

Have you tried experimenting with digital signal processing?  If not, you might want to start with what is available in Roon (including equalization and upsampling).  To take it up another level, with a correspondingly higher learning curve, take out a free trial of HQ Player. HQP integrates nicely with Roon, once you've figured out how to work the settings. 

You also might want to try measuring your room frequency response with REW. Identify the bright spots, then focus DSP (or room treatments) there.

I love when digital people want analog sound.

I love when people don't understand digital sound is analog all that is different is the recording mechanism.

The OP does seem to have achieved insightful, accurate sound, but now seems like he wants a change.  He doesn't necessarily need to focus on the DAC; if he tubes any link in the chain, pre/power amp, source, he will probably get what he wants

I love when digital people want analog sound.

@robert1976, You answered your own question in my opinion. “I used to have a Dan D'Agostino Momentum Integrated. I'd use the tone controls and simple cut treble 1 or 2 dB. I don't have that flexibility any longer.”

Sometimes the simplest solution is the best. As others have noted, recordings of rock music are often not the greatest, especially recordings of live concerts. What no one has mentioned is that the level of distortion produced by the gear used to play rock music, the amps, specialty pedals, speakers, cables, everything, are generating loads of distortion, some of it intentional. 
 

You have a wonderful, neutral and highly revealing system. Do you listen to much acoustic music at high volumes? If so, do you find the high frequencies of symphonic music, string quartets, acoustic guitar, that is, classical, jazz, folk, bluegrass, etc. equally edgy? If not, it’s the recordings.

If rock is not your sole interest and the system sounds great during most of your listening, look for a different software approach or purchase a high quality equalizer that lets you cut the treble a bit for those recordings that require it. 
 

Someone will always want to sell you a $20k something. You noted you tried Roon’s equalizer and didn’t like what it did to the rest of your music. You will likely have to adjust for the specifically annoying recordings only no matter what solution you select. Find someone who can suggest simple high quality software or hardware to reduce treble output at the frequencies where you find it annoying. Perhaps other Audiogoners can suggest some options. 

@robert1976 

I second the general opinion about your server. Your system is excellent, the weakest link is the Root Nucleus.

I'm a big fan of Audio Note (my system is all AudioNote). My Server/Dac was not. I did audition the AN 4.1x dac with room nucleus at my home and it was a disaster. Not impressed by any means so did not spend the money. A couple of months latter visited the local Dealer for an audition with a Inous Statement and a HiFi Rose as servers. Completely blown out. So much so that I purchase the Dac, waiting for it to be delivered with a Rose as server.

I would not change your Dac before testing  a dedicated server in your system.

Best 

Robert1976 - Perhaps you might audition the DCS Vivaldi (either with or without the Master Clock and/or Upsampler).  I recently made the upgrade and found it to be free of harshness and offers tremendous detail and richness.

Hmmmm,

I don't know anything about streaming.

Do you have the same source in LP, CD, HiRez Stream?

Is the LP more involving than the CD?

IOW, can you isolate the Streamer from the System Sound?

Have you considered a Tube Preamp?

Me posting here and asking for feedback is *exactly* that: delving into the source of my problems. I’m open-minded and not fixated on one particular solution or the other. Yes, my budget is substantial, but that does not mean I want to throw mud against the wall and see what sticks. I started this topic to learn.

I use REW to measure the room myself.

I did not mean you, I mean all the effectively "random" suggestions that amount to throwing money at the problem but fortunately sprinkled in, a few suggestions to attempt to get to the heart of the problem.

You already have (assuming working properly) about as perfect a DAC as possible. Anything else will add distortion, frequency response issues, etc. Looking at the ASR test, about the only issue is the slow filter.  If I understand things right, that is only an issue with a flawed recording. Others can probably pipe in better on that. Cymbals have lot of power at high frequency.

How does your REW plot look?  Are there any obvious peaks in the mid-range or high frequencies?

Here is an interesting page with cymbals and a discussion of frequencies with samples. It may be good for trying to isolate the issue.

https://www.musical-u.com/learn/percussion-frequencies-part-2-cymbals/

I listened again to Californication (from that album). The whole track has an edgy sound. I can't say any worse loud or quieter though. It does not sound like the best recording.

Also to consider is if perhaps there is something wrong with your amp or speakers that is highlighted with this music at high volumes. I have had issues in the past that only came out at high volumes (mid-range was failing).

Hello OP,

I have Nucleus+ > Tambaqui > Audionet PreG2 > Audionet Max amps >  YG Hailey 2.2s.

Changing my cables from (first cheap cables with silver) to Audience AU 24 SX was a big improvement in fullness and warmth. 

Then changing to Kubala Sosna Elation was a huge improvement (full loom).

I thought I was finished.  But I decided to try an Auralic Aries G2.1 as streamer, between my Nucleus + (on network) and now usb to Tambaqui.  this added better imaging, warmth, and seems more lifelike.  Very easy to install and set up, and also easy to compare.  Yes I used all K-S cables on the new streamer (power and usb).

Are you near Maryland?  Ken

@robert1976 That recording (and most all of them) of Red Hot Chilly Peppers sounds compressed. It’s the stuff you listen to in the car, in the gym with headphones or as background music at home. Unless I’m missing something myself I never heard the RHCPs sound good on any version of the system I had over the years. That’s just not a good benchmark and your system is basically telling you that. 
Just my $0.02

I use REW to measure the room myself.

Why not use it to EQ the offending frequencies? You could use room treatments but in this case I suspect it needs some attenuation at certain frequencies. Much easier to do.  

+3 on adding room treatments.

+2 on optimizing the room first. So much time and $$$ on a fantastic system and so little effort with the most important component. The room. Happy listening 

Ron 

Robert congratulations on one hell of a system.

That said, I would look to your own words for guidance.

"Nothing wrong with wishing to mellow things out a bit if you’re in a large untreated room."

Transparent system, beryllium tweeters, rock music, loud.

I would spend my money on room treatments first so that you actually know what the system sounds like. Not the room.

My 2 cents

@parker65310 When playing loud, cymbals become harsh and bright for this recording of Californication by Red Hot Chili Pepper: 

I would suggest those incisive speakers and amp will negate DAC change. It is always happening that pursuit for clarity where suddenly the musicality seems to have gone and you spend listening time finding the faults rather than enjoying the music. I'm at a place now whwith tannoys and luxman that I like. There is clearer there is more transparent but I find myself lost in music more now compared to when it was all pres and monoblocks and a spaghetti junction. 

If I started over probably a 6w valve amp feeding klipschorn

There can be huge discrepancies with recording quality. The majority of the worst recordings I’ve heard are rock, particularly early early cd recordings using DDD engineering. If you tell me Dark Side of the Moon sounds like crap then there is something amiss in your system. Please be specific regarding which recordings you expect to sound good that instead sound harsh. Throwing more money into your system isn’t necessarily the panacea.

I personally prefer the DACs from Playback Designs with their FPGA-DACs.

If you’re looking for a tube Dac the Nagra tube Dac might be an excellent choice it is worth trying!

Best of luck 

+1 for converting your ethernet line to optical in between the server and streamer if you haven't already. x2 converters, x2 transceivers, and an optical cable costs $100, and place a low noise power supply of your choice on the optical converter nearest the streamer. That should remove some graininess. Might push the sound in a direction you'd like. 

I second Audioguy85. I use Border Payrol DAC & really enjoy it on a good system. You can return it if you don’t like it. Sometimes you don’t have to spend big $ to get what you want.  Great small company owned & operated by Gary Dews.he’s very knowledgeable & provides excellent service! 

I have two stellar dacs that fit your sonic requirements - Holo Audio Springs DAC (modified by ASi Teknology) and the Audio GD R7 DAC. The latter is stock and both check all the boxes - very natural sounding, great imaging, detail without harshness, beautiful tone colors. Just lovely sonics.

Add a grounding cable to your system and everything snaps into beautiful focus.

If I wasn’t clear, the Ethernet switch goes between the wireless access point and the DAC. 

Same issue, but different solution. You need to clean up the jitter which in your set up means an ethernet switch. Think SOtM sNH-10G or similar. Maybe adding optical modules from Small Green Computer (systemOptique) etc.  Again, given the budget, you should have these devices anyway, so start here first. If they do nothing, sell them. 

are you nuts or something? you want to get rid of the mola mola dac? that's one of the best sounding dacs on the market, get rid of those crappy cables those are ofc junk get OCC single crystal wire it's far superior to anything ofc at any price and also your focals can be a little bit edgy with that beryllium tweeter as well.

@x5owner1 I don't use USB. The Nucleus connects to a wireless access point via ethernet. The Tambaqui DAC is a Roon endpoint and connected via ethernet to the same wireless access point. The Nucleus acts as a server only, the playing/rendering happens in the DAC.

Try a Musical Paradise MP-D2, get the DAC chip upgrade, Jupiter Copper Foil caps, GZ34 rectifier and 6SN7 tubes. That ought to do the trick.

With your budget, you really need to clean up your USB connection between the Nucleus server and the DAC. Think Singxer SU-6 or similar (or better). That is your current weak link and will continue to be no matter how much you spend on a DAC. 

@robert1976 

i guess there are just several things i would address before a dac. Perhaps you have already addressed them. Dedicated line was great. Good on you. So many don’t have a clean source. Ignore the slamming of this. It is so important. Also you are building a great system. Most of what you already have. Synchronicity is so important and trust that. Use your gut instincts on that. They are probably right. I have found that set up by a great system set up guru is so key. It was a whole new system after I had a top set up person come out here. Changed EVERYTHING. For the better. Build the system bottom up and enjoy. Yes though, please consider a great speaker/system set up person. Game changer and maybe the best component I ever added to my system.

The best dac’s I owned/had: Metronome Technologie “Le Dac” / C6 signature/ C8+ ,Ear Yoshino DAc 4 , and Audio Note dac 4.1x ( all dac’s with tubes!

@deludedaudiophile

that audiophiles are more interested in throwing money and stuff on the wall and hoping it will stick than delving into the source of their problems so that they can intelligently fix them

Me posting here and asking for feedback is *exactly* that: delving into the source of my problems. I’m open-minded and not fixated on one particular solution or the other. Yes, my budget is substantial, but that does not mean I want to throw mud against the wall and see what sticks. I started this topic to learn.

I use REW to measure the room myself.

@dancarlson10 I'm open-minded and not 'bent' on a tube DAC. Just an initial thought, followed by me asking for opinions in this post.
Thanks for pointing out the server/streamer is the first component in the chain. And how the Nucleus is a good candidate for an upgrade.

@robert1976 

i seriously don’t understand why you are so bent on a tube dac. The Essence are not tube, the nucleus is loud noisy and simple. Why would you not get a great server and build the system on that. I had a nucleus server. I now have an SOTM switch and linear power supply by nordost with DC cable connected to a Wadax Atlantis server via V2 ethernet cable and it simply transformed my system from noise to music. Yes a wadax server is 24k and I also have a dedicated line, fantastic cables a  a VTL S-400 2 and other great components. It seems you want a great dac without a great source. It simply seems out of order. Think of a great server as food for a dac. And if you have 40k a wadax atlantis Dac used will absolutely crush anything else. Or just get a tube dac if you are sure on that.

How many times does this type of post have to occur with pretty much the same responses every time?

Why would you be so sure about a tube dac when you have a nucleus and solid state amps? Why go tube here? I don’t understand the logic there at all. Yes a great streamer is king. My Wadax Atlantis streamer changed the whole sound in my system. A great streamer is first before considering a great dac.

+1 duckworp,

This thread makes me believe (more), that audiophiles are more interested in throwing money and stuff on the wall and hoping it will stick than delving into the source of their problems so that they can intelligently fix them.

I think your problem is the Focals. In the UK they are known to have a very bright signature sound. When Focal and Naim combined it was unfortunately not a good marriage from a Hi-Fi view - Naim has a very forward presentation and mixed with the Focal it makes for uncomfortable listening for many. If the Gryphon has this very detailed Naim sound then the amp-speaker combo you have will be the cause of the harsh top end.

I’ve had these issues before, harsh sounding systems, and I really think that changing the DAC will not really help, and changing the streamer less so. 

I agree with xboom. First, try playing through a tube preamp.

Upper quality Aqua , HoloSprings, Denafrips all are R2R dacs.

I would recommend an Aurender W20SE streamer… giving you a spectacular and natural / quiet input. Then an Audio Research Reference DAC9 or Reference CD9se. I own the later and had a Berkeley Reference Alpha DAC in my system for several weeks… the ARC was a touch warmer and pretty much just as detailed.

I have been a real fan of Audio Research preamps and phono stages. I just never thought of Audio Research as company that had a great DAC… until my dealer bright one over and said, “listen to this”. When I did… I sent him a message within a minute to order one for me.

These two changes will give you a world class natural sounding front end. I think that will improve every aspect while taking the edge off. If there is any residual brightness.. switch to Cardas Clear Beyond interconnects and particularly a Cardas power cord for your amp.

As I have gained more experience in what music actually sounds like and how to match components to reproduce the emotional connection as well as detail and slam I have moved step by step into more Audio Research tubed gear. I have been able to keep the detail and add the emotional connection (rhythm and pace, midrange bloom) to the music… even in the digital realm. So my digital end has the detail and soul of my great analog end.

Audio Note DAC4.1x. They manufacture their internal components including C-core transformers and caps. 

The company is well represented in the Far East including HK, Singapore, and possibly Malaysia. Their philosophy is to test for  performance results and then adjust by listening to the components. That's why they don't have stellar measurements on the bench.

No affiliation, just an owner and a fan.

I'm totally onboard with verdantaudio, Antipodes is very nice, they know how to optimize both ports and power supplies, K50 would be my first choice for off the shelf not insanely priced servers, K40 or 41 for running another brand streamer.  And yes to running Roon with core on server, endpoint on streamer.

hello op

we have a ton of experience with Roon as well as other servers and streamers.

First We were aureder dealers then an innous dealer the Innous sounded far better we tested sotm lumin and many others.

The Stereophile comment is very wrong the statement sounds far better if you are using usb and yes demoed that way the difference is very audible via ethernet there would be no difference.

fast forward we found a thread New to the forum: high end music server with Roon Core and 3 x dedicated linear power supplies | What’s Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com)

the poster found the 5k 432evo Aeon sounded nearly as good as theese 10k euro servers

The Aeon has a very rich and Musical presentation. and we have compared it to the nucleus and the Aeon sounds far better.

may/ june Absolute Sound Andrew Quint reviewed 432Evo Aeon and found the Aeon to be best sounding server I have heard. in fact he purchased the sample..

as per dacs the Aqua hifi dacs are very musical and are fully modular and upgrad able as they are ladder dacs they are very smooth and natural sounding.

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect nj

US importer 432Evo music servers AQua hifi rdealer focal dealer