Which DACs are known to be sweet/rich/relaxed?

@larryi @jeffreyw thanks for pointing to Audio Note, will have a look 

@jasonbourne52 Isn't that a highly personal thing? Not everyone aims to get as close to the "truth" as possible. They might prefer a slightly more relaxed presentation because that allows for longer and more easy going listening sessions. By definition, all recording equipment, audio components, and rooms add distortion and colouration. Nothing wrong with wishing to mellow things out a bit if you're in a large untreated room.

@chayro I live in Malaysia and unfortunately there's no MSB, dCS, Lampizator, Aries Cerat DACs to demo, let alone for in-home demos.

I'm not unhappy, just curious if I can chop off that bright top end with certain recordings. I used to have a Dan D'Agostino Momentum Integrated. I'd use the tone controls and simple cut treble 1 or 2 dB. I don't have that flexibility any longer.

It's just occasionally bright. With 90% of recordings, and at 80-85dB, the transparency and detail are actually a benefit.

Why not just use the equalizer function within Roon?

@deludedaudiophile I tried that and Roon’s equalizer distorts the sound to the point I can hear the difference. Piano sounds off, for example. Having a highly resolving system is a two edged sword.

@xboom the occasional brightness is the result of the entire chain. I've considered VAC amplification. But my DAC is currently the cheapest component, hence my thought to upgrade to a better DAC. And not only better, but also a DAC known for a sweet and smooth presentation.

@rsf507 good for you, the proof is in the pudding. In-home demo is the only way to really decide if a new component makes a difference. Saved yourself a good bag of money there.

@jriggy you are absolutely right, thanks for zooming in on that. I tried Nordost Valhalla 2 speakers cables and interconnects. Different but not per de better. Later I found out these cables are on the bright side.

also tried Tellerium Q, one level below top of the line but not interconnects. Sounded good but never pulled the trigger.

Any suggestions for cables that match well with the rest of my system? While keeping in mind my goal to make things a little smoother.

@wokeuptobose thanks for sharing your journey, very valuable lessons.
Could you elaborate on what the Pacific does better than other DACs you've had? What do you like about it? And what are any weak points or trade-offs?

@verdantaudio thanks for explaining. So if I’d get a Lampizator Pacific or Aries Cerat Kassandra, or any other DAC that isn’t a Roon endpoint, I have to connect over USB. This will turn my Nucleus into both Roon core server AND player, which causes performance to drop. This may even undo the positive effect of using a better DAC?

Moving to a non-Roon endpoint DAC means I should get a separate player? Meaning Nucleus > Player/renderer > DAC?

What player/renderer should I look into? This machine will not have storage space for local files and not run Roon core operating system correct?

@mahler123 it's not that I don't like the Tambaqui per se (it's great actually). I'm curious if I could sweeten up the overall sound a bit. And I thought I may achieve that with another DAC.

Gryphon amps are transistor based pure class A.

Thanks @lordmelton, I should do in-home demos to see what a difference that makes.

I remain a bit sceptical because Stereophile said about the Nucleus "JA found that the sonic differences between the Nucleus+ and the considerably more expensive Innuos Statement server were small."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/roon-labs-nucleus-music-server

Also, Jay's Audio Lab found zero improvement with his MSB Select II between streaming from his laptop and using a Taiko Extreme: https://youtu.be/k0SDLQJDrG4?t=199 

I suspect it's highly system dependent and should be tried in one's own system. Which is what I'll do. Thanks again.

@verdantaudio thanks for your recommendations! Worth looking into.

I however don’t understand you remark about using a Nucleus as a server & player vs. just as a server. I don’t have local files, I play/stream from Tidal using Roon. My Nucleus is connected to a wireless access point with an ethernet cable. And my Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC is also connected to that same access point with an ethernet cable. I don’t use USB.

What makes you prefer the Aries Cerat (Kassandra?) over the Lampizator (Pacific)?

@audphile1 I don’t use USB. Nucleus and Tambaqui are both connected to the same wireless access point via ethernet. Cables are just 2-3 feet long.

I have not used the stock power cords. The Triode Wire Labs power cords I have, The Obsession, is supposed to be quite good.

@verdantaudio you said earlier:

Best upgrade from a Nucleus for people connected via USB is not to get a higher end single box server but to get a separate player renderer.

The reason you’re recommending the single-box Antipodes K50 is because internally it’s devided into two computers: one for Roon core server, one to play/render the music file.
Should I look at Pink Faun 2.16 (ultra) too?

Upgrading to a non-Roon Ready DAC comes with the additional cost of a separate player/renderer, or upgrade to 2-in-1 box like antipodes K50.

BTW, the Lampizator Pacific can be configured with a Roon Bridge (although I’m not 100% sure if that means the playing/rendering is taken away from the Nucleus and into the Pacific).

@x5owner1 I don't use USB. The Nucleus connects to a wireless access point via ethernet. The Tambaqui DAC is a Roon endpoint and connected via ethernet to the same wireless access point. The Nucleus acts as a server only, the playing/rendering happens in the DAC.

@dancarlson10 I'm open-minded and not 'bent' on a tube DAC. Just an initial thought, followed by me asking for opinions in this post.
Thanks for pointing out the server/streamer is the first component in the chain. And how the Nucleus is a good candidate for an upgrade.

@deludedaudiophile

that audiophiles are more interested in throwing money and stuff on the wall and hoping it will stick than delving into the source of their problems so that they can intelligently fix them

Me posting here and asking for feedback is *exactly* that: delving into the source of my problems. I’m open-minded and not fixated on one particular solution or the other. Yes, my budget is substantial, but that does not mean I want to throw mud against the wall and see what sticks. I started this topic to learn.

I use REW to measure the room myself.

@parker65310 When playing loud, cymbals become harsh and bright for this recording of Californication by Red Hot Chili Pepper: 

Thanks for all the input guys. Apart from all the advise on equipment, I start to realise:

— When a system is highly resolving, it will expose recordings that are bright and harsh. It's actually a good thing. Over 95% of recordings sound wonderful, it's only harsh/bright with certain older (rock) recordings and at high volumes >85dB.

— My room is large and not heavily treated. Playing music loud will overload the room: at 80dB the reflections make up, say, only 15% of what reaches my ear. At 90dB that could be 30 or 40% (numbers here are for the sake of example).

Further, I don't really have side walls and thus hardly any first reflections. My right side wall is 9' / 2.7m away from the speaker (floor to ceiling windows with thick curtain). My left side wall is also 9' / 2.7m away but it's only 8' / 2.4m long, it then opens up to a large open kitchen. Rear wall is 13' / 4m behind listening position. Half of it opens up to a large study area.
Only first reflections are floor (covered by rug) and ceiling. I'm looking into absorption panels for the ceiling now.

Big learning moment!
To see what the impact of my large, mostly untreated living room is, I decided to drag my 374lbs / 170kg Stella Utopia speakers to my bed room :)

I put a few mattresses and diffusers up against the wall, rug on the floor, thick drapes behind the listening position, etc. Photo here: https://ibb.co/PNCzHnW

This well dampened environment made ALL the difference! Old recordings and playing loud no longer caused any harshness or brightness. Room wasn’t dead either: RT60 was around 400-500ms, about half of my living room.

This reminds me that the room is one of the most important components in the chain.

My 13 x 20ft / 4 x 6m bed room is obviously too small for these huge speakers to spread their wings. But it was a great way to prove a point.

This finding prevents me from chasing different gear. I’ll either install more absorption, or simply accept that a large, mostly untreated living room has its down sides.

@dlcockrum Thanks for your input. A few posts ago I elaborated on how I dragged my system from the living room to my 13ft x 20ft bedroom. This room is very well padded and it's RT60 is only a third of my living room. This made ALL the difference. All problems were gone.

So, my echo-y living room is the culprit. I shouldn't be looking at new gear, but try to bring down the RT60 in my living room. Which is what I'm doing now :)

@verdantaudio Thanks for your input. Between Antipodes Oladra and Pink Faun Ultra, do yo feel there's a clear winner? Or more or less at the same level, making it about taste and preference?

Is Pink Faun's clock better than Oladra's? But then Oladra separates server from player on different computer boards while Pink Faun uses one. Not sure what reaps more benefits.

Dual Pink Faun Ultra is more than I'm willing to spend.

Thanks again @verdantaudio Where does the Grimm MU1 fit in?

Grimm MU1 reviewed as:
Neutral, clean, fast, transparent, resolving with high resolution. More convincing than K50 with more precise imaging.

K50 reviewed as:
Full, smooth, liquid, lush and relaxed.

Same reviewer deemed the Pink Faun 2.16x drier, tighter, more accurate and more clinical than the K50. He preferred MU1

MU1 is supposed to have good synergy with my Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC (Bruno Putzeys designed the Tambaqui and co-founded Grimm).

All should be seen in the context of my soon-to-arrive Boulder 3010 and 3060, with Focal Stella Utopia EVO speakers.

@eagle3333 earlier in this thread I wrote how room acoustics solved the entire problem. It’s no longer bright/harsh at louder volumes. Adding enough absorption did the trick.

I received my Boulder 3010 and 3060 and they’re amazing.

I’ve also upgraded my Roon Nucleus to a Grimm Audio MU1. And I have a Lampizator Horizon on the way to replace my Mola Mola Tambaqui.

@gryphongryph I managed to solve the issue by adding absorption to the room. I had too much echo in the room, which made it sound bright, harsh and messy at high volumes. All good now :)