Where do I start-amp or speakers ?

I have a 12 x 15 room and started with Maggie 1.7 a sub and Parasound Hint wonderful sounding system.  Total budget under $4 k on the used market.

michaeljbrownI look forward to your return to Thiel Audio and the Thiel Owners thread here.
Happy Listening!

This is now an old post, but to answer the question Why did I sell this High end system? A: No longer enough room; I went from 2900 sq fit and a 20x 20 room to a 1600 sq ft “Garden Home” (hah! Find me a garden in Midland Texas!); I have also acquired a 1600 sq ft adobe & stone home in Taos, NM. So I have similar sq ft but in two houses!

And and you can pick up an older integrated amp/prep combo, perhaps with a tuner included,for peanuts to try things out. 

Speakers. Buy the highest efficiency most dynamic speakers you can. Leaves you great flexibility choosing an amp - and will likely renew your interest in music!  Many less efficient speakers have wonderful specs- but they’re not necessarily musical. Music is dynamic. Jbl rocks. No harm in trying a few pairs. 

Are you Married should be the first question.

well, I already voted once: speakers first.

But then I reconsidered this thread and the OP original question.
Most ppl are responding, e.g, "I WOULD do this first .... " versus "I DID this first ...." . 

IOWs: theory vs reality. I'm not in the market for amps or speakers. I have 4 pair of speakers and 4 amps, 2 preamps that I am comparing to each other with different electronics: trying all permutations to compare. I enjoy this process, it is "fun" to me, tho may not be to others. 

My point is that if I were in the position of choosing speaker vs amp first, I wouldn't do either per se. I would do what I have already done: collect a few amps and speakers to compare rather than put all my eggs in one basket and buy "speakers first, then amp" or "amp first, then speakers". This method works for me. 

thinking back, I came to my present position by compiling my top 5-10 speakers I am interested in, irrespective of amp. Then make a list of 5-10 amps, irrespective of speakers. Then cross-match electronics, tube-vs SS vs class D, impedance, etc with the electronic/power requirements of the speaker. that will give a short list of amp-speaker pairings that would theoretically work together.

Then review the 'short list" for realistic considerations: the pairings may look good on paper, may seem good, but may not fly in reality. Like me, you might think to yourself, " I really think these speakers are the ones, but I'm not sure if amp A/B/C will produce the best sound ... also depending on the Preamp.

I'm just sharing how I have, over the last10 years, learned to mix and match gear, and avoid the pitfalls of "there is only one combo out there for me and my room". there are oodles of combos that will sound good in your room, but only A vs B vs C, etc comparisons will reveal the best sound your ear.

Absolutely, it is all about the simple mathematics of relative error. There is litle point in worrying about 0.001% difference in distortion in the electronics if the speakers have 1% or more. The same is true or frequency response where electronics are usually perfect wthin 0.2 dB, but speakers may easily deviate from flat in even the mid frequencies by a few dB. It is simple high school maths. And for those who don't like science: you can hear it.

Opinions vary greatly as usual, but it has always been my (limited) experience that the speakers make the largest difference in sound. Everything is important from the source to the preamp to the amp to the speakers, but when I change source or preamp or amp the difference is always noticeable but it is incremental compared to changing the speakers. Changing these other components may give you higher resolution, more defined bass, and any other number of attributes, but changing the speakers has always been more significant. They are the most variable in terms of distortion, bandwidth/frequency response, etc. Again just an opinion but speakers first.

Start with the source components and invest most of your budget there. A great turntable and preamps can make inexpensive speakers sound great. A power amp can only amplify the quality its fed into the speakers.  Given your budget, I would spend 10K on a  turntable, 4k on a phono preamp, 4k on a preamp, 4k on a power amp and 2K on speakers. You can upgrade the speakers later. 

Amplifier speaker integration is only hard if your speakers have a hard to drive impedance curve, and if your amplifier has a high output impedance.

Of course this statement is not 100% true, which is why equipment matching is important.

An example of an exception is the Quad or Sound Lab ESL, which does not sound right if the output impedance of the amp is low. There are other examples of course (the Acoustic Research AR-1, the world's first acoustic suspension loudspeaker, is probably the best-known example as it is so famous; it was designed for an amp with a 7 ohm output impedance).

Amplifier speaker integration is only hard if your speakers have a hard to drive impedance curve, and if your amplifier has a high output impedance. Avoid those two problems and there is no real issue unless you are a hypochondriac.
If the budget is indeed 8K for a medium sized room, I would allocate most to the speakers: Harbeth SHL5+ are perfect for such a room, and they are easy to drive. Harbeth make some of the cleanest, musical and non fatiguing speakers on the market. They like a bit of power, so why not go for an affordable solid state pro audio amplifier like the 2x350 watt Yamaha P3500s? See here for a test that proves that it is perfectly suitable for domestic use: http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/amplificateurs-de-puissance-haute-fidelite/mesures-ampli-yamaha-p...
I recently bought the slightly weaker 2x250 watt P2500s for my son, and the sound quality is just perfect. The variable speed fan never comes on in domestic use. And as a pro audio unit it has balanced inputs for lower noise. Built like a tank.

Ya, amp- speaker pairings are the most difficult pairings IMO,
and I know others agree.
. You have a huge room with those tall ceilings, more room for reverberations, but also more space to fill in with sound. I have learned to start with speakers that aren’t too extravagant so they can be matched with a good variety of amps at reasonable cost.
I have the Spatial M3 Triode Masters, price= $4000.

Now before anyone writes off these “Triode” Masters, these speakers don’t require vacuum tubes, and they don’t sound like tubes. They will fill the room with sound, they have two 12” cones with a voice coil on the upper cone. Very broad soundstage, SQ is equal to about an $8000 speaker, and that’s not hyperbole, b/c Spatial sells direct to the customer, so huge savings. Also, a 20 year warranty. Who does that these days? (Made in America too). Ok, I sound like an ad, I’m done.

Spatials are linear, and beautiful but punchy sound,and technically 16 ohm, but does require alot of power to drive them, more than just a small tube amp. One guy posted that he ran the Spatial M3 Triodes with the Schiit Freya and Schiit Vidar SS monos to great success. Vidar are like $7-800 each.
And if you already have the Freya, you’d be guaranteed great synergy using the Schiit products together!

Ive also ran the Spatials (and Dynaudio Contours, & Dali Helicon 400s) with the Primaluna Dialogue HP Integrated amp.
$4300.
Can run Triode or Ultralinear via remote. Can runs any tubes from EL34 to KT88 to KT150 for power section. 70 lbs. 3 huge transformers will give you the bandwidth you probably want coming from using the  Krell/Thiell combo.  This amp has twice as much power as needed for the Spatials, so you could also try the little brother, the Primaluna Dialogue Integrated, $3300

. I don’t know if you are open to tubes, but the Primaluna is another exceptional value, is not “tubey” sounding, is not soft, and is not slow.
This amp manhandles the Spatials, and can drive other speakers down to 2 ohms! 
So down the road, you could also try electrostats or other notoriously “hard-to-drive” speakers.

You can't buy speakers without considering what amp you will be buying. They work together or not. You have to hear them in combination or there's a chance you'll be disappointed.

Sometimes the speakers that require less Watts, seem to want more expensive Watts.

This reminds of what came first, the chicken or the egg or in this case the amp or speakers. Do your research on speakers as to which will offer the best sound for your dollar, also keep in mind that the more sensitive they are, the less money you will have to invest in amplification. I'm not talking less sound quality but less power.

Smaller Maggies + subs?  I've read about people getting very good results going this route.

Michael, did not realize that your ceiling slanted back so dramatically. That may well save the day - but I would still begin with speakers in that situation. Magnepans might be very good indeed - I have run them on everything from '70's mid-fi 100WPC to modern hifi high power, and have always liked the sound. My Quads are more sensitive to amplifiers, but Quads might not work with your room.

Experiment! Good luck! 

Speakers are the most variable part of a system, not including the room and your preferences. But while the choices for speakers are abundant, the options for great (and affordable) power amplifiers are far less so.

Prior to hearing (and reviewing) the Valvet E2 single-ended Class A amp, I would have agreed to pick speakers first, then the amp. Now, for only $2990, one can have one of the best amps on the planet, and then pick from the many (although not unlimited) options for complementary speakers.

Happy listening!

JerryS
www.10audio.com

Speakers are the most important part of any system, they dictate the overall sound.  Amps, will “generally”all have a similar sound.
no flame wars, just stating some acts, I’m sorry, most SS amps will have a similar signature, tubes not so much. 
  Start with speakers, then move different amps/preamps around to find what suits your tastes..

I suggest that you think of what type of speaker you want and then you can narrow your choice of amplifier. You can do that the other way around as well; however, the amp can be placed anywhere but the speakers should have an optimal location. As to speaker, what is it that you want for the money, a balanced speaker in terms of dynamics, bass extension, wide or narrow listening area, tonal fullness...? When you decide on the type of sound you want, you can choose a speaker and mate it with the proper amp. As to electrostat and planar, I suggest a beefy solid state amp. As to dynamic speakers with high efficiency, a tube amp. For those dynamic speakers with low impedance and difficult to drive, again preferably solid state or some huge tube amps (too expensive for you). So, it’s your decision how you want the speaker to act first, then choose the amp.

You can alter the listening area with Hallographs and Synergistic Research Atmospheres/HFTs. They can widen the listening area and focus the sound but that’s more than you are willing to spend.

That’s why I suggested used high efficiency dynamic speakers with low coloration and easy to drive overall for tubes or solid state. You don’t have to buy new to get great sound.

My room is a typical 80’s “vaulted ceiling “ room. 10 feet at speakers’ wall, 20 ft vaulted to the rear ceiling wall, 18’ length of room. 16 wide. Wide doorway open to DR.
I think Maggies would be too tall, but maybe not. I’d like to try them, but then here we go again with the monster amp arms race. 
Great posting guys. Thanks much. Maybe I should just start with a nice rack...

My room is a typical 80’s “vaulted ceiling “ room. 10 feet at speakers’ wall, 20 ft vaulted to the rear ceiling wall, 18’ length of room. 16 wide. Wide doorway open to DR.
I think Maggies would be too tall, but maybe not. I’d like to try them, but then here we go again with the monster amp arms race. 
Great posting guys. Thanks much. 

If you don't like your speakers then where will you be?

^A specious argument. Sources can't fix what is contaminated by the speakers. It matters not if the contamination is at the beginning, end, or in between.  Speakers are the most colored link in the chain, and furthermore, the link most compromised by what's around it.

You always want to start with the amp. Always. In fact, the pervasive view among most “experts” I know feel that the most important part of the system is the first 6 feet out from your wall. So I’d recommend a power generator like the PS Audio P5 or P10 along with solid power cables connecting that to your outlet and source components with quality power cables connected to your P5 or P10. 

The fundamental truism pronounced over 30 years ago by Linn Sondek is still classic: “Garbage in, garbage out.”  No loudspeaker in the world can “fix” the noise that comes in from your power provider, and if your amp is cranking out dirty power any quality loudspeaker will simply deliver that signal as served up by your amp and preamp. 

@bdp24 , "The speaker/room relationship is for me the most important consideration in a system, and the place to start. This is a matter of some disagreement, but there is far more difference in sound between speakers than amps in ways most important to me: truth of timbre, lack of vowel coloration, etc.

If a, say, planar speaker is chosen, different ones work better with certain kinds of amplifiers than with others. You’re not going to put a Sanders Magtech amp on the old Quad, but an Atma-Sphere S-30 or Music Reference RM-10 would be perfect. And neither of those is right for a pair of Maggies, but a Magtech is."

PERFECTLY stated.  Well done!

I have a 13' X 28' living room but my second audio system.  I bought used Legacy Signature IIIs and have a radically modified Dyna 70 as well as an EAR 890 to drive them.  They are very efficient and easy to drive (an 18 watt Sherwood receiver is what I used to test them).  The Signature IIIs go for $1500-$2000 used and the EAR 890 goes for under $4000 used.  It is an excellent coupling (upgrade the EAR 890 with a Synergistic Research Blue fuse).  You'll save money for other upgrades such as wiring.

LOL!

Some of you find changing speakers easier than changing a component? Really?

Great discussion!  I was using a Krell S-1000 pre/pro with a Levinson 433 amp and Thiel CS-2.4 speakers and loved them.  I swapped in a Meridian 861 preamp and B&W 803S speakers because I got some good deals on them.  Currently using the Thiels with a McIntosh MA-5200 in a second system and that is also a good match, but the MA-5200 isn’t technically rated for 4 ohm speakers.  PM me know if you’re interested in the Krell preamp or Thiel speakers.
Happy Hunting!
Chris
http://www.socalhifi.com

... my 2 cents worth:
Invest in your amp - it is the heart of your system.
You can more easily experiment with speakers (both dealers and some manufacturers have demos you can borrw for in-home accessment

I'd go SS Integrated with pre-outs and main-in, giving you even more flexibility to use your tube preamp...

I posted this some thought just recently.

Speakers. Because they’re typically the weakest link in the chain, most room dependent, add the most coloration and characteristics by virtue of their design (dipole, cone, horn, etc), and define the power demands of an amp.

So, start there and work your way backward.
Speakers
Amp
Pre
Source
Cables

Just must two cents. Make of it what you will.

Source; Amp first its the sound; the heart. Anything else is BS

Speakers first, then optimize the amp for the speakers. Makes no sense the other way around.

I would totally change things up. Think about a nice tube integrated and some smallish speakers to pair with it. Speakers with a minimal cross over i.e. Ref 3A. They would usually be more efficient then most. Have some fun here. Sophia Electric amplifiers sound really nice, haven't heard the Jadis gear in a while but have heard good things. I wouldn't buy into the integrated that advertise heavily in TAS and Stereophile. Find a diamond or two in the huge amount of rough. 

A different perspective - your room could be the real problem. 18x16 is almost square (bad) and a ceiling of 20 makes damn near cubic (very bad). The centre ridge might save you, but I wouldn't count on it.

In these circumstances, I would absolutely begin with speakers, Ralph's expertise notwithstanding. Your room effects look to dominate everything else. Consider real room-filling speakers, like the big Magnepans. Run them on $1000 solid state if need be, until you can afford to improve your electronics.

Can you audition somehow? Because that may make all the difference.

Just my opinion.

How many of us have actually started assembling a system from absolute zero--without a single component carried over, gifted, inherited, or whatever?  In that rare case I'm going to say speakers, because (a) room size, speaker size and appearance, are much more variable and need more accommodation than electronic component size (17" anyone), and (b) all other things being equal*, variation in speakers makes a more immediate impact on overall size. (In a reasonably balanced system, where $$ are equitably spread over the different components.)

I have a rich friend, a very rich friend , who started with a ten K system and over a years time in about 20K increments moved to a 100 K system .
The 1K speakers he started were never changed because he liked how they looked .
They had no problem showing what was what all the way up from Odyssey to Lamm .

We all agree everything is important 😉 I will certainly agree that the source is critical as everything else in the chain is dependent on it to sound its best.  Great up front gear coupled with a good speaker will yield wonderful results every time. Poor upfront gear will always limit a tremendous speaker. In the end get it all right 😊. Yeah, that’s it. 

I would recommend to start with the source.  Though Speakers very in sound reproduction, dept, sound field, presents, bass, clarity and maximum power you will not have great sound without the clean Pre-amp / Power Amp.  It sounds like you had very high end audio to start and I question why you sold it?  The powerful Amp you had would work most anywhere.  The speakers I can see because of ergonomics alone.  
If it were me and you have the money invest I think you already know the market you will be in for cost and quality for the electronics. 
 Not Sure if you are thinking about space taken up by big amps so may I suggest an Anthem Integrated.  There are many good ones out there to try out and they do not require a ton of room. A Blue Vault would be a good streamer and hard drive for playing.    The speakers are a matter of what you like to hear in the music and I would ask the dealer (With promise not to cash the check for a few days) let you audition the speakers in you final room location with the furniture, decorations, (Drapes and such if there)  and all you will have in the room.  The room acoustics will be a factor and you want Speakers forgiving enough you are going to be happy with.  I like to audition in the room at my place because it will be with your equipment.  Hear it first at the dealer but do not give final payment until you know they perform in your setting.  My 2 cents worth.   

You pick the speakers than match the amp to them.Enjoy!!

If you are an audiophile like many of us, you should recognize that this is never ending.  Unless you like to lose a lot of money buying and selling audio gear over the years, you should buy as much as you can, starting with the speakers and working your way back (amp next).  And all along the way, you should assume you will have a bigger room in the future.  For example, I bought the (then new) Martin Logan Renaissance's two years ago and have them in a 15'x15' extra bedroom; along with McIntosh amp/pre-amp.  I have no regrets and am ready for a bigger room, if and when we move.  So I recommend spending as much as you can (more than $4K) on your speakers and when you can...add the next piece. 

Speakers because then you will know what amp you will need

Solve all you issues with a smaller room with the Kii3 speakers.  No need for amp , preamp.  I'm loving mine.

This is all just opinion, so everyone will have a different answer.

There are opinions here...BUT for many who have posted, there is experience and the learning acquired, then applied and subsequently shared -- which hopefully goes beyond being purely opinion.

I adopted the 'speakers first' convention and orthodoxy when I first started out in this hobby of ours. I recently again followed this convention (so l am guilty of not following my own thinking and position on this). It has forced me to make decisions in the reverse...so this is forefront for me and apropos.  

I do not believe that speaker first is necessarily the best way in. And before I cause too much excitement, I also happen to believe that there are no firm rules in this area. Let me repeat that: There are no firm rules in this area of discussion.

In other words, if one chooses to select a speaker and then build a system around it, that is absolutely fine.

However, if one were to ask me how to start building a system, I would in most cases advise to start upstream. I have had much more of a source first approach which has been overtaken with a Power First position (whether at the front end of the system or for each individual component or system wide). This is within a system wide framework and context-- in other words, consider the whole.

I'd like to encourage thoughtful reflection of the minority position (contra speakers first) and it is not meant as a challenge. The majority of posts here are speaker first and that's normally the path discussed whenever this type of topic comes up. The points below are to raise questions and to reflect - not challenge.

You could buy a great 35 Watt/Channel tube amp but it won't do you much good if you later decide you want a big pair of planars or electrostats.

This is but one side of the equation. If you take this position, then the other side of the equation is equally relevant. For example, buy Maggies or Thiels and then "but it won't do you much good if you later decide you want a" 2A3 SET amp....

No question... Speakers First !

No Question At All?

For example:

- Speakers are more colored than any other component

- There are far more differences between speakers

Speakers, always speakers. ....absolutely the least "accurate" component in any system (well, some SET's...). Speakers are all colored to some extent, find what you like there first, then move on.

Ask the question: Do I want to build backwards from the weakest link or move forward from the strongest?

 You'll tie your hands behind your back if you buy the amp first.

Bondage by amplification? Handcuffed to the Speaker Outputs? : )

As Ralph @atmasphere  has pointed out there are far more speaker options available than amplification options. Copying his full post, in response to "If you start with the amp,...." to revisit the point:

If you start with the amp, you may have to work with speakers you don't like.

A quick look at the industry shows that there are at any time at least ten times as many manufacturers of speakers as there are amps, so its likely that the above statement isn't completely true.

IOW if you know what sort of amp you like, the chances are much higher that you can find a speaker you like to go with it than the other way 'round.

I'll add that it is far easier to rotate speakers through one's optimized or optimal system (and Room) to find a great pairing and that this is much easier and much clearer to determine, than doing so in the reverse. 

I also believe you are better off with high quality, exceptional components and good speakers (rather than exceptional speakers). Exceptional speakers are more dependant on exceptional gear. These are of course generalizations.... made here to point out impact and weighting within the system.

I'll close with repeating that there are no firm rules and those who choose speakers first (which is most of you) are in no way making a mistake or are wrong. 

In an earlier post I said that if there is a speaker one is in love with, go for it...same holds true for amplification or any other component or part of your system.