Yup, Kurtis Blow was the man! There is a movie called "Krush Groove" Stars Run-DMC, LL Cool J, Fat Boys, Beastie Boys, Kurtis Blow. Shiela E., New Edition. It shows some of the early years of Rap. Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin started Def Jam. Gives you a lot of history of the genre and how they overcame the people who hated it. There is a great song called "King Of Rock" by Run DMC. It has some great guitar riffs in it. I still know the song word for word 30 years later.
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tostadosunidos, I have taken absolutely no position on whether rap is music or not therefore I feel no need to prove anything either way. If you feel that rap is not music that’s your prerogative. I really don’t care. As far as me playing "the race card" I only stated my opinion that some posts in this thread are, to me, not so subtly racist. The posts in question mostly involve those who write and perform rap and those who enjoy it. Rap has been around a long time so why all the angst now? Sorry but I just don’t see it as an indicator or cause of the decline of western civilization. I would be loath to attribute that much power to any form of music or non-music. BTW: I never personally accused you of anything. |
rja, what you said was: There's very real cultural/racial bias in this thread. 1. Rap is not music. Are you not saying that I am culturally/racially biased for saying rap is not music? If not, what are you saying? BTW, I said it was another form of art but simply didn't meet my criteria for being considered music. That in and of itself is not a knock. Actually, I feel partly the same about opera, which contains a lot of which is undeniably music (and a lot of it is undeniably great music), but as I said earlier: opera is people singing when they should be talking and rap is people talking when they should be singing. Don't take that too seriously, it's a pointed joke. Anyway, if you weren't saying that to say rap is not music carries a cultural/racial bias, what were you saying? |
This was set off (by spacing) as one thought: There's very real cultural/racial bias in this thread. 1. Rap is not music. 2. Creators of rap are somehow not as good as regular humans (whatever that means). What else could you have meant? If the A-gon members who said either of the two things are not culturally/racially biased, then who did you mean? |
Rap reminds me of the Beatniks, I didn't like them either. Both are like some sort of word association for the uninitiated in their respected crafts. Then, again, I was too young to appreciate the Beatniks and am now too old to appreciate Rap. There's something to be said to be born at the right time. :-) All the best, Nonoise |
You may be on to something, nonoise. I watched the last 20-25 minutes of a Kendrick Lamar ACL concert last night on tv. He seemed talented and earnest and he had a combo of apparently talented musicians behind him. I say "apparently" because they mostly played very pedestrian music behind his rap except for about one minute of a really good keyboard solo. The crowd of 2700 loved every minute of the show (or the part I saw). Oh, and the crowd seemed to be 99% white people, so I'm not sure which race or culture I must be biased against. |
I've been silent since early in this thread when I stated that I was listening to Rap in the early days. After seeing this thread going in circles, I have to say that I agree with calvinj's statements. My earlier statement.... For me, it goes back to 1980ish with The Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" and Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. Anybody who's heard their song "The Message" knows what real Rap is about. These were a group of young Black men from the South Bronx with a social and political message about growing up on the mean streets.This is what calvinj has been saying, that Rap was the only way these groups had to express themselves. And people took notice. Back then it wasn't about dissing women and who spent the most time in jail. I call it music and a good part of it is performance art. Today's Rap has morphed into some bad formula music that I do not like. Tastes change and mature and I listen to Classical now, but I kept my old Rap CDs and 12 inches. This discussion reminds me of when I was involved in the punk rock movement in the late 70s, NYC. People said that wasn't music. It's funny that the white kids who were into Punk and New Wave (post-punk) all welcomed the Rap movement of the 80s. But when we were that age, we were open-minded. |
Just this past Sunday, the last story on 60 Minutes was a segment on a Broadway Musical that tells the story of Alexander Hamilton set to Rap/Hiphop. I understand completely if that sounds silly to you, but I'm here to tell you I dug it. Written by and starring a first generation Puerto Rican immigrant, it has had both Obama and Cheney as audience members! |
@bdp24 @lowrider57 thanks. You are right the early Sugarhill gang "The message " was an important song that talked about social ills in America. Run DMC "Hard Times" was another song. Kurtis Blow "If I ruled the World" Too Short's"The Ghetto" all of these songs brought awareness to the social ills and problems in America at that time that were being ignored. Like I said before I can tell when people actually know the music that's in the genre. Yes rap has changed and we have fewer of the the socially conscious rappers that we had in the past. Rap at one time was a poor mans CNN. It told real stories about what was happening in America. It railed hard against censorship and over reaching powers of our government. People who know real rap history know that. People who don't hate it just to hate it and have no social awareness of the earlier positive affects it had in American Culture. Small minded group think at its best. Anyway thanks for your input fellas. Enjoy your music. |
Extramusical associations have nothing whatsoever to do with intrinsic musical value. Musical value is not tied to historical or cultural value--they are separate things. And people who don't know real rap history don't necessarily hate it just to hate it. More sweeping and unfair blanket statements. You and I are equally entitled to dislike any music, food, what-have-you. I'm half Italian and I don't think you're anti-Italian if you don't like Rossini or lasagne. It just means it doesn't appeal to you. I am so sick of the social media "haters gonna hate" B.S. that gets trotted out anytime someone doesn't like something or somebody. You don't have a clue as to what is in the hearts and minds of the people you are accusing of being haters. |
Right nonoise, Mostel and Wilder were much better in the movie (a favorite of mine) than the two guys were in the Broadway show, imo. The show I referred to above is entitled "Hamilton", and the writer and main-character performer is Lin-Manuel Miranda, born in NYC to first generation Puerto Rican immigrants, both who came across as very intelligent and articulate in the 60 Minutes segment (he's a musician, she a teacher, I believe). Lin-Manuel showed signs of musical talent at an early age, so his parents put him in a school for gifted children, where he found his thing---musicals. He went on to college and got a degree, and had one play (which won some awards---his first play!) under his belt when on a vacation read a biography of Alexander Hamilton by American history authority Ron Chernow. Lin thought it would make a great play, so sat down and wrote one---story, music, and lyrics. And it's great! I like Rap and Hip Hop no more than most of you other older white guys (I don't even know what constitutes and differentiates Rap from Hip Hop!), but I loved what I heard in the 60 Minutes footage from the Broadway stage. A soundtrack recording was mentioned, so I'm going to check it out. Join me! |
Music touches the soul and has meaning. For most people music is not for just listening but for hip hop it was and has been a movement. It's storytelling the beat of the drum and creating the rhythm. Rap doesn't have to justify that it's music to anyone it's music to a movement. Don't worry about it learn to like it. You are going to hear it playing whether you want to or not. Lol. The Beauty of it all is that this "fad" doesn't want or need the acceptance certain kind of so called music lovers. It actually shuns them and revels in the joy of not being accepted. Gonna last another 30 years ago. I guess the next thread will be "60 years ago I thought it was a fad my question is why?" Get ready to ask it again in 2045!!! It's a rap thing you wouldn't understand. |
bdp24, I saw the "60 minutes" segment about the composer/performer of "Hamilton." Yes, he's a very talented young man. He said that he wrote the music to be sung in the Rap style; that's his interpretation. You don't have to like it, in fact I don't think I could sit thru an entire Rap musical to be honest. This Broadway musical is another example of Rap that is here to stay and is not part of the "thug" genre. Earlier, I cited the Roots as an outstanding band with a Jazz, Funk, R&B sound using Rap and Soul styles to perform their vocals. I dislike the Rap I hear today and the message it's sending to the younger generation, but there will be diversity within the genre in the future. And if you don't like it, that's fine; we all have our own unique preferences. This isn't a forum to convince you to like Rap. |
Like others have stated, modern commercial rap is quite different from rap 20-30 yrs ago. What once was a creative platform has turned into an homogenized, watered down shell of itself. Same could be said of the convential "pop" single which craftwise peaked in the 70s.Same for aggressive hard rock: the pinnacle of the art form was in the 70s. Progressive rock: 70s. Reggae: 70s. Psychedelic: 60s. Glad I went to school years ago as there is nothing new today. |
Yup. Certain kind of music lovers like those who claim that they accountability and credibility. Anyone who acts like folk, blues, rock, jazz, punk, country etc. etc. was first and is so much better is so grey poupon. Lol. Ask a question got an answer. Our audiophile hobby as a whole is full of it. That’s why it’s dying. It’s so damn snooty. I’m glad I don’t have accountability and credibility with this bunch. That means I probably on the right track! Sire sire please bless me with your approval. Lol. Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin got turned down in every bank they went to 20 years later 1 billion dollar sale of the label. Great genre. Great music Great American Story. |
There's no denying you've done your homework but you 1) make statements and then run away from them rather than back them up 2) have a strange way with the English language and 3) apparently have a need to prove the worthiness of the sounds you like to listen to. You're right, you don't need my approval and I don't need yours. If someone says rap is not music they're not necessarily saying it's not art or that it's not good. There's a lot of stuff I like that's not music. Anyway, you don't make a good case for your cause; you simply put people off and prove the opposite point. |
This is a useful overview of the history of rap, with emphasis on the best of the performers each year: http://www.complex.com/music/2016/01/the-best-rapper-alive-every-year-since-1979/ |
Mr. Taters is on a roll with his seemingly innocuous, but essentially rhetorical questions. Is Mr. Taters obsessive, perhaps? Might he actually be a closet Rapper? Kinda like those preachers and politicians who fling fire and brimstone at whatever they purport to find abominable. And then they are found out. But if so or not, to what end? Or does Mr. Taters have some peculiar agenda? My questions are not meant to be rhetorical although some may find them to be so. |
Yes I have a strange way with the English language. I type on a small iPad. Sometimes too quickly. Lol. However, enjoy your music. You like what you like. I don't care if I put people off or if I make a good case for my cause on this particular thread. It is what it is. One would not expect to ever get a positive reaction or common ground on certain things in certain situations. This one of them. I don't think you make a case for your points either but at the end of the day it's not really important to either of us. It would be foolish to think that what I say to you and you to me matters much at all when it comes to this. In your mind you think you have made brilliant observations about this subject. I beg to differ but in the end we probably will never meet or have a listening session and based on your responses that probably is a good thing for us both. Now back to my jazz and my hip hop fad. Lol |
01-25-2016 6:32pmToo many old, bored, banal, well-fed, monied white guys with nothing better to do than starting threads about rap/hip hop, etc. Racial over/undertones? Absolutely. Shame on me for even commenting- but you'll kindly forgive me, because, in my naivete, I believe that Audiogon deserves better. |
Long ago when I started in this hobby I always understood that it was different and I was different. I grew up in the hip hop golden age. Lol. However, I love old school jazz with a passion. My walls are filled with old black and white photos of Holliday, Fitzgerald, Gillespie, miles and ellington. I have been around a number of great audiophiles that are great and I don't ever worry about racial issues with most. I would say that there were times I have thought it was an issue. Face it most audiophiles are as described in the earlier post. The high end is an affluent crowd. African Americans who are affluent would not spend it on this usually and those who would wouldn't care for the uppity folks accepted them. They wouldn't keep that kind of circle. I'm not saying that anyone here is or isn't but I am aware that it is subtle. I could see where one could see possible overtones/undertones. I think that some people it would bother. For me, it does not. I would be naive to think that there are folks who are here who don't say it to be racial. I'm just saying I wouldn't care if they did. They know who they are. As far as rap music is concerned to me went from being this innovative lyrical and musical art form. It went from describing America's social ills and problems and a uplift message to this sing songy fake gangster repetitiveness driven monetarily by its surburban fan base. Does it portray African Americans in a negative light. Now, I would say that mainstream rap probably does a lot. I enjoy old school hip hop but I absolutely love old and new real jazz. To each his own. In every hobby you have folks that have there circles and preferences. I wouldn't spend my money on a speaker whose owner would let me demo whatever I choose. I would spend it on one who would or find someone who wanted to develop one. It's mindset. It's America. Free to be the way you are. If Cristal doesn't want you to drink it's champagne. Develop or buy Ace Of Spades and serve your market. Audio better change its strategy or it endanger of dying. Thanks for all comments. The final answer your question is the fad has lasted because like everything else it has it's good it's bad and unapologetic. It's raw like it or not. It doesn't require approval of anyone. That's what attracts it's fans. I like it less now and my jazz more. Enjoy whatever you like but don't ridicule other audiophiles because they like a genre you don't. |
As they say....some here ’doth protest too much’ ...Get over yourselves with this (is it or isn’t it, racist) crap! It’s music. Take it or leave it...don’t feel compelled to convert others. Never in the history of the ’Internet forum’ has someone convinced someone else to change camps, on polarizing issues. Unfortunately, most seem to participate only to speak, not to listen. Although I happen to enjoy rap on my high end system...(especially Scarface, FWIW; ) the people defending it sound as desperate to me as those criticizing it. P.S. Taters...you got me...I tried to resist...but you got me. Well played, my friend. |
Tosta wrote: "But that’s not the issue here--the issue here is whether it’s proper to call someone a racist based on comments made about music. That’s some pretty heavy extrapolation." I did not call op a racist. I said there were racist under/overtones to his rhetorical post. If you go back and read his subsequent comments, they go beyond his original question, which is, and I quote: "Now it seems like it dominates the music industry, movies and fashion. MY ONLY QUESTION IS WHY?" (emphasis added) Clearly this is not his "only" question. He has started at least one other thread about the same subject. He seems obsessed. His "only question" was answered early on- as if it even deserved to be taken seriously. His "question" is purely rhetorical, and my sense is that Taters is a provocateur, a mischief-maker. He is easily entertained. Some people have too much idle time. And yes, including me- Heck, I could be tube rolling instead of responding to this thread! :) I have no more to say. I’ll leave it to the rest of you to sort it out. RAP on, or not.... |
ps, he and calvinj have each started multiple threads and appear to be arm-wrestling over the merits of rap. It's gotten into discussions of racism and elitism. I didn't say it at the time but I felt the thread about snooty audiophiles was actually elitist in tone, but coming from the OP himself. I'm sure they're both good guys but I did find it all a little weird at times. But I digress. If you call a person's statement racist, what does that say about the person who uttered the statement? What kind of person makes a racist statement? And why/how do you read racism into statements made about an art form? Who wants to discuss music with people who brand your comments "racist" when you're just discussing the elements of music? Not me. And that is absolute--I do know my thoughts and feelings. Absolutely. You, on the other hand, do not. Absolutely. |
Wow what a thread! Very entertaining. I do like to envision the age, race, and sex of all of the people writing these posts. I feel it would be dominated by white men in their 50's sitting in front of their Sonus Fabers with a laptop :-) That's no insult though, I am a white male, age 41, sitting in front of my Rockports with a laptop! The point is, that this thread represents a particular slice of the population, not the whole, and while there are many posts here that support that stereotype, there are some that buck the trend and actually speak with an open mind. I think it is less constructive to bash and dismiss the entire genre than it is to explore it with a thread of intellectualism or philosophy as a base. Rap isn't music, rap sucks, rap is ignorant, rap this, rap that... what does that do for the progression of the argument or to answer the question that Taters asked? Those comments are just pats on the back for those who think "Rap Sucks!" and have no desire to take the thought any further. I listen to all music, from Stravinsky to Snoop Dog, with Pink Floyd, Willie Nelson, and John Lee Hooker in between. For me, it is all about quality, and less about genre. Ok, sure, I don't go through too many opera crazes, but I have a couple operas on LP, and they do go under the needle every now and then. I bough them to explore the best Opera has to offer for someone who is not predisposed to opera in the first place. I enjoy straight classical more than opera, and I wanted to see what it was all about. What are the opera fans enjoying so much!? So, I bought La traviata and Le nozze di Figaro. I figured those two gems would be a good start. I would like to propose, and challenge, especially to the nay sayers about rap on this thread, do the same thing I did with those two operas! If you already think you hate rap, and that may remain a cold hard fact despite any future experimentation, get philosophical on your own ass, slam the brakes on dismissive thought, and open your mind to the fact that the genre of hip hop and rap MUST have some redeeming quality somewhere, even if it is not super accessible to the main stream. If that is true, find it, and buy your two albums, or get on Tidal and create a playlist of the best that you can find. Spend an hour on the web and instead of bashing and dismissing, search for the genre's redeeming qualities. Find a music journalist who writes about all genres, and see what artists and albums they say are the more enlightened of the hip hop genre. As I mentioned, I listen to nearly all genres. There are a few I really dislike though. Modern mass market county is not for me (though Willie Nelson & Johnny Cash are) and Brittany Spears style pop is not my speed. But other than that, I am all over the board, and I love to find the examples of the genres that I do like! I will sum this up with an invitation to all of you who wrote on this post, to join me on another post, which I am going to put in the music section and call it "Hip Hop & Rap recommendations for Taters" This is not an insult at all, and I am only using Taters' name so we can all easily find the post. I will start by naming an artist, a track, an album, whatever I can think of, that I feel is some of the better examples that the genre has to offer. I hope you join me, and to the bashers out there, stop hating, look for the good stuff, its more rewarding than pointing at the garbage! Have a great Sunday all, - Mark |
Here's the link to the thread I made dedicated to looking for the best hip hop and rap out there. Please contribute! Link: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/hip-hop-rap-recommendations-for-taters |
Somehow people just think I sit around and listen to rap all day. I listen occasionally to it. I listen to jazz and blues the most. I listen to hip hop, r&b and rock as well as some Christian music mixed in. I'm willing to listen to it all. Kind of different than a lot of folks. I welcome creativity in all realms. Some I like some I don't but I give it all a try. |