By the way. Lol. I still don't care what the rap bashers think. Lol #stiff arm
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I will take a chill pill. The fact the you have respect for j Dilla is enough to make me apologize. He had one of the largest most diverse vinyl collections when he passed away. He is one of the rap guys that had great respect for soul r&b, jazz, rock and blues. The stuff he had in his collection was flat out unbelievable. It was in a huge basement studio with vinyl from floor to ceiling circling around the walls. Great rap producer and music lover. I must admit you surprised me with that one. Enjoy your music. Thanks. |
Calvinj-First of all i’m not bashing hip-hop music, put down the anger pills and listen. My point was 99% of ALL recorded music does not meet my standards regardless of genre. IMO hip-hop has a much smaller sample of recordings that meet my standards then jazz-classical-classic rock-blues-folk ect...Since I grew up with 80’s metal and what they now call "classic alternative" my biases are skewed(with that genre(s)) which does lower your standards. From reading your posts hip-hop was the music you grew up with thus your more "forgiving" with the quality of that genre which is understandable. FWIW I really enjoy the beats of J Dilla and currently trying to track down "The Herman Gardens Project"-D. Focis/J. Dilla. |
As one of the rappers likes to say. #stiff arm. Lol. I'm not obsessed with your acceptance. You are obsessed and puzzled about why rap is so successful. Don't try to pull that controlling the narrative crap with me. Lol #stiff arm. Man go ahead and send me one of those really thought out anti rap responses and then tell me how bad I look in my responses. I don't give a rat's *** what most of the rap bashers think I listen to My hip hop, jazz, r&b and blues and smile. I'm never going to meet you guys. If I did we probably wouldn't have much in common. We probably would never hang out. I own my own business. I have a law degree. A radio show and some really great audio equipment and music I enjoy. I listen for me not anyone else. I love America. USA USA USA. |
Man I don't care about audiophiles not liking rap music. I'm glad certain audiophiles don't. I think it will survive without them maybe. Lol. I'm glad that my musical tastes are all over the place and that I can enjoy just about any genre. Just enjoy your musical choices. It shouldn't be puzzling. It's pretty simple I'm probably younger and from a different cultural background than most audiophiles. So I will never expect most audiophile to like rap music. I would be foolish if I did. Most of the people coming out of my era don't really care what guys that don't like rap think. Honestly, most take it as a badge of honor when certain folks don't like it. I hope you enjoy your music. I'm enjoying mine. Happy listening. No hard feelings. Don't kill my vibe. Just enjoy your own. |
Jetrexpro-"It's a young persons world". Advertisers and the arts media believe that because the ignorant/young can be easily persuaded in purchasing anything regardless of artistic value. Calvinj-Your obsession with audiophiles not embracing rap-hip/hop is puzzling. IMO 99% of recorded music of ANY genre is not worth ownership. With hip/hop not being a priority with audiophiles means a few great hip-hop recordings will be overlooked. What is more upsetting is Garth Brooks selling 135 million albums in the USA!!! |
Calvinj, dont worry because most of the guys who blanket bash music are afraid of how culture and art moves forward. Art always moves forward. Bashers who decide what is good and what is not good simply miss out. It's well documented that even Mozart was bashed. Its a young persons world and there is nothing the bashers can do about that. Enjoy and be open to all music. I love new music and look forward to any music in any genre that might connect and touch my heart. Regards Jet. |
That’s great that no one ever asks for rap music. They are playing it on 5 stations for free all day in most of the markets. It’s all about preferences and exposure. I listen to jazz but I am really knowledgable when it comes to rap. I don’t like all of it but I enjoy some on my system. Most of today’s rap is simplistic and repeats itself. Not enjoyable to those like myself. I was bashed on this forum for knowing the genre up and down and told that I can’t be in the audiophile little boys club. Tastes are different somethings you like and somethings you can’t stand. I just enjoy it all at the highest fidelity possible. Jazz lovers try duke pearsons album "The Right Touch". I’m exiting again don’t want to get punched walking out this debate. Lol. |
Somehow people just think I sit around and listen to rap all day. I listen occasionally to it. I listen to jazz and blues the most. I listen to hip hop, r&b and rock as well as some Christian music mixed in. I'm willing to listen to it all. Kind of different than a lot of folks. I welcome creativity in all realms. Some I like some I don't but I give it all a try. |
Here's the link to the thread I made dedicated to looking for the best hip hop and rap out there. Please contribute! Link: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/hip-hop-rap-recommendations-for-taters |
Wow what a thread! Very entertaining. I do like to envision the age, race, and sex of all of the people writing these posts. I feel it would be dominated by white men in their 50's sitting in front of their Sonus Fabers with a laptop :-) That's no insult though, I am a white male, age 41, sitting in front of my Rockports with a laptop! The point is, that this thread represents a particular slice of the population, not the whole, and while there are many posts here that support that stereotype, there are some that buck the trend and actually speak with an open mind. I think it is less constructive to bash and dismiss the entire genre than it is to explore it with a thread of intellectualism or philosophy as a base. Rap isn't music, rap sucks, rap is ignorant, rap this, rap that... what does that do for the progression of the argument or to answer the question that Taters asked? Those comments are just pats on the back for those who think "Rap Sucks!" and have no desire to take the thought any further. I listen to all music, from Stravinsky to Snoop Dog, with Pink Floyd, Willie Nelson, and John Lee Hooker in between. For me, it is all about quality, and less about genre. Ok, sure, I don't go through too many opera crazes, but I have a couple operas on LP, and they do go under the needle every now and then. I bough them to explore the best Opera has to offer for someone who is not predisposed to opera in the first place. I enjoy straight classical more than opera, and I wanted to see what it was all about. What are the opera fans enjoying so much!? So, I bought La traviata and Le nozze di Figaro. I figured those two gems would be a good start. I would like to propose, and challenge, especially to the nay sayers about rap on this thread, do the same thing I did with those two operas! If you already think you hate rap, and that may remain a cold hard fact despite any future experimentation, get philosophical on your own ass, slam the brakes on dismissive thought, and open your mind to the fact that the genre of hip hop and rap MUST have some redeeming quality somewhere, even if it is not super accessible to the main stream. If that is true, find it, and buy your two albums, or get on Tidal and create a playlist of the best that you can find. Spend an hour on the web and instead of bashing and dismissing, search for the genre's redeeming qualities. Find a music journalist who writes about all genres, and see what artists and albums they say are the more enlightened of the hip hop genre. As I mentioned, I listen to nearly all genres. There are a few I really dislike though. Modern mass market county is not for me (though Willie Nelson & Johnny Cash are) and Brittany Spears style pop is not my speed. But other than that, I am all over the board, and I love to find the examples of the genres that I do like! I will sum this up with an invitation to all of you who wrote on this post, to join me on another post, which I am going to put in the music section and call it "Hip Hop & Rap recommendations for Taters" This is not an insult at all, and I am only using Taters' name so we can all easily find the post. I will start by naming an artist, a track, an album, whatever I can think of, that I feel is some of the better examples that the genre has to offer. I hope you join me, and to the bashers out there, stop hating, look for the good stuff, its more rewarding than pointing at the garbage! Have a great Sunday all, - Mark |
ps, he and calvinj have each started multiple threads and appear to be arm-wrestling over the merits of rap. It's gotten into discussions of racism and elitism. I didn't say it at the time but I felt the thread about snooty audiophiles was actually elitist in tone, but coming from the OP himself. I'm sure they're both good guys but I did find it all a little weird at times. But I digress. If you call a person's statement racist, what does that say about the person who uttered the statement? What kind of person makes a racist statement? And why/how do you read racism into statements made about an art form? Who wants to discuss music with people who brand your comments "racist" when you're just discussing the elements of music? Not me. And that is absolute--I do know my thoughts and feelings. Absolutely. You, on the other hand, do not. Absolutely. |
Tosta wrote: "But that’s not the issue here--the issue here is whether it’s proper to call someone a racist based on comments made about music. That’s some pretty heavy extrapolation." I did not call op a racist. I said there were racist under/overtones to his rhetorical post. If you go back and read his subsequent comments, they go beyond his original question, which is, and I quote: "Now it seems like it dominates the music industry, movies and fashion. MY ONLY QUESTION IS WHY?" (emphasis added) Clearly this is not his "only" question. He has started at least one other thread about the same subject. He seems obsessed. His "only question" was answered early on- as if it even deserved to be taken seriously. His "question" is purely rhetorical, and my sense is that Taters is a provocateur, a mischief-maker. He is easily entertained. Some people have too much idle time. And yes, including me- Heck, I could be tube rolling instead of responding to this thread! :) I have no more to say. I’ll leave it to the rest of you to sort it out. RAP on, or not.... |
As they say....some here ’doth protest too much’ ...Get over yourselves with this (is it or isn’t it, racist) crap! It’s music. Take it or leave it...don’t feel compelled to convert others. Never in the history of the ’Internet forum’ has someone convinced someone else to change camps, on polarizing issues. Unfortunately, most seem to participate only to speak, not to listen. Although I happen to enjoy rap on my high end system...(especially Scarface, FWIW; ) the people defending it sound as desperate to me as those criticizing it. P.S. Taters...you got me...I tried to resist...but you got me. Well played, my friend. |
Long ago when I started in this hobby I always understood that it was different and I was different. I grew up in the hip hop golden age. Lol. However, I love old school jazz with a passion. My walls are filled with old black and white photos of Holliday, Fitzgerald, Gillespie, miles and ellington. I have been around a number of great audiophiles that are great and I don't ever worry about racial issues with most. I would say that there were times I have thought it was an issue. Face it most audiophiles are as described in the earlier post. The high end is an affluent crowd. African Americans who are affluent would not spend it on this usually and those who would wouldn't care for the uppity folks accepted them. They wouldn't keep that kind of circle. I'm not saying that anyone here is or isn't but I am aware that it is subtle. I could see where one could see possible overtones/undertones. I think that some people it would bother. For me, it does not. I would be naive to think that there are folks who are here who don't say it to be racial. I'm just saying I wouldn't care if they did. They know who they are. As far as rap music is concerned to me went from being this innovative lyrical and musical art form. It went from describing America's social ills and problems and a uplift message to this sing songy fake gangster repetitiveness driven monetarily by its surburban fan base. Does it portray African Americans in a negative light. Now, I would say that mainstream rap probably does a lot. I enjoy old school hip hop but I absolutely love old and new real jazz. To each his own. In every hobby you have folks that have there circles and preferences. I wouldn't spend my money on a speaker whose owner would let me demo whatever I choose. I would spend it on one who would or find someone who wanted to develop one. It's mindset. It's America. Free to be the way you are. If Cristal doesn't want you to drink it's champagne. Develop or buy Ace Of Spades and serve your market. Audio better change its strategy or it endanger of dying. Thanks for all comments. The final answer your question is the fad has lasted because like everything else it has it's good it's bad and unapologetic. It's raw like it or not. It doesn't require approval of anyone. That's what attracts it's fans. I like it less now and my jazz more. Enjoy whatever you like but don't ridicule other audiophiles because they like a genre you don't. |
01-25-2016 6:32pmToo many old, bored, banal, well-fed, monied white guys with nothing better to do than starting threads about rap/hip hop, etc. Racial over/undertones? Absolutely. Shame on me for even commenting- but you'll kindly forgive me, because, in my naivete, I believe that Audiogon deserves better. |
Yes I have a strange way with the English language. I type on a small iPad. Sometimes too quickly. Lol. However, enjoy your music. You like what you like. I don't care if I put people off or if I make a good case for my cause on this particular thread. It is what it is. One would not expect to ever get a positive reaction or common ground on certain things in certain situations. This one of them. I don't think you make a case for your points either but at the end of the day it's not really important to either of us. It would be foolish to think that what I say to you and you to me matters much at all when it comes to this. In your mind you think you have made brilliant observations about this subject. I beg to differ but in the end we probably will never meet or have a listening session and based on your responses that probably is a good thing for us both. Now back to my jazz and my hip hop fad. Lol |
Mr. Taters is on a roll with his seemingly innocuous, but essentially rhetorical questions. Is Mr. Taters obsessive, perhaps? Might he actually be a closet Rapper? Kinda like those preachers and politicians who fling fire and brimstone at whatever they purport to find abominable. And then they are found out. But if so or not, to what end? Or does Mr. Taters have some peculiar agenda? My questions are not meant to be rhetorical although some may find them to be so. |
This is a useful overview of the history of rap, with emphasis on the best of the performers each year: http://www.complex.com/music/2016/01/the-best-rapper-alive-every-year-since-1979/ |
There's no denying you've done your homework but you 1) make statements and then run away from them rather than back them up 2) have a strange way with the English language and 3) apparently have a need to prove the worthiness of the sounds you like to listen to. You're right, you don't need my approval and I don't need yours. If someone says rap is not music they're not necessarily saying it's not art or that it's not good. There's a lot of stuff I like that's not music. Anyway, you don't make a good case for your cause; you simply put people off and prove the opposite point. |
Yup. Certain kind of music lovers like those who claim that they accountability and credibility. Anyone who acts like folk, blues, rock, jazz, punk, country etc. etc. was first and is so much better is so grey poupon. Lol. Ask a question got an answer. Our audiophile hobby as a whole is full of it. That’s why it’s dying. It’s so damn snooty. I’m glad I don’t have accountability and credibility with this bunch. That means I probably on the right track! Sire sire please bless me with your approval. Lol. Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin got turned down in every bank they went to 20 years later 1 billion dollar sale of the label. Great genre. Great music Great American Story. |
Like others have stated, modern commercial rap is quite different from rap 20-30 yrs ago. What once was a creative platform has turned into an homogenized, watered down shell of itself. Same could be said of the convential "pop" single which craftwise peaked in the 70s.Same for aggressive hard rock: the pinnacle of the art form was in the 70s. Progressive rock: 70s. Reggae: 70s. Psychedelic: 60s. Glad I went to school years ago as there is nothing new today. |
bdp24, I saw the "60 minutes" segment about the composer/performer of "Hamilton." Yes, he's a very talented young man. He said that he wrote the music to be sung in the Rap style; that's his interpretation. You don't have to like it, in fact I don't think I could sit thru an entire Rap musical to be honest. This Broadway musical is another example of Rap that is here to stay and is not part of the "thug" genre. Earlier, I cited the Roots as an outstanding band with a Jazz, Funk, R&B sound using Rap and Soul styles to perform their vocals. I dislike the Rap I hear today and the message it's sending to the younger generation, but there will be diversity within the genre in the future. And if you don't like it, that's fine; we all have our own unique preferences. This isn't a forum to convince you to like Rap. |
Music touches the soul and has meaning. For most people music is not for just listening but for hip hop it was and has been a movement. It's storytelling the beat of the drum and creating the rhythm. Rap doesn't have to justify that it's music to anyone it's music to a movement. Don't worry about it learn to like it. You are going to hear it playing whether you want to or not. Lol. The Beauty of it all is that this "fad" doesn't want or need the acceptance certain kind of so called music lovers. It actually shuns them and revels in the joy of not being accepted. Gonna last another 30 years ago. I guess the next thread will be "60 years ago I thought it was a fad my question is why?" Get ready to ask it again in 2045!!! It's a rap thing you wouldn't understand. |
Right nonoise, Mostel and Wilder were much better in the movie (a favorite of mine) than the two guys were in the Broadway show, imo. The show I referred to above is entitled "Hamilton", and the writer and main-character performer is Lin-Manuel Miranda, born in NYC to first generation Puerto Rican immigrants, both who came across as very intelligent and articulate in the 60 Minutes segment (he's a musician, she a teacher, I believe). Lin-Manuel showed signs of musical talent at an early age, so his parents put him in a school for gifted children, where he found his thing---musicals. He went on to college and got a degree, and had one play (which won some awards---his first play!) under his belt when on a vacation read a biography of Alexander Hamilton by American history authority Ron Chernow. Lin thought it would make a great play, so sat down and wrote one---story, music, and lyrics. And it's great! I like Rap and Hip Hop no more than most of you other older white guys (I don't even know what constitutes and differentiates Rap from Hip Hop!), but I loved what I heard in the 60 Minutes footage from the Broadway stage. A soundtrack recording was mentioned, so I'm going to check it out. Join me! |
Extramusical associations have nothing whatsoever to do with intrinsic musical value. Musical value is not tied to historical or cultural value--they are separate things. And people who don't know real rap history don't necessarily hate it just to hate it. More sweeping and unfair blanket statements. You and I are equally entitled to dislike any music, food, what-have-you. I'm half Italian and I don't think you're anti-Italian if you don't like Rossini or lasagne. It just means it doesn't appeal to you. I am so sick of the social media "haters gonna hate" B.S. that gets trotted out anytime someone doesn't like something or somebody. You don't have a clue as to what is in the hearts and minds of the people you are accusing of being haters. |