Interesting topic. First, while what I am about to say may suggest otherwise, I am not a fan of Rap music. Which is to say that I rarely choose to listen to it, much as I rarely choose to listen to Opera. And while I can understand the visceral dislike that some people feel towards it, I find the dismissive talk to be ironic. Why? Because the dismissive reactions are, by and large, reflexive, and not thoughtful. In order to seriously discuss Rap, I believe that it is crucial to venture beyond the aesthetics of the genre, though there is arguably a very broad spectrum in that regard. While I am not anything like an expert, I don’t think that there is any doubt that Rap is an important form of expression. The rawness, beat-centric nature, openness (in terms of lyrics), de-emphasis of melody, etc., are all reflections, in my view, of the world from which its progenitors came, and related anger and frustration that has been simmering for a long, long time. Of course the work of every artist and musician is, to some extent, informed by their environment, but the inner city in the U.S. has been particularly toxic to those who grow up there. This isn’t meant as an excuse for rude lyrics, or misogyny, etc., but at the same time there are plenty of Rap artists who have meaningful things to say, and the fact that the public’s appetite for their music has grown so remarkably confirms this. Finally, for now, I’ll contribute this interesting, brief essay from 2009, from Bernard Chazelle, Professor of Computer Science at Princeton: Bring the Noise
Public Enemy’s political voice may have obscured the enduring brilliance of their work. It’s been 21 years since the release of "It Takes a Nation" and it’s hard to believe how fresh, innovative, and emotionally powerful that album still sounds. The raw energy of Chuck D’s booming voice, trading rhymes with Flavor Flav, is channeled through a layered mix of swirling scratches, quick beats, and funky James-Brown samplings. It’s only when you listen to the old masters like PE and Run-DMC that you realize how much the current generation (Kanye and the rest) are in their debt. And, who knows, perhaps gangsta rap will even prove to be a short-lived commercial aberration.
You may know Chuck D from his Air America radio show and perhaps less from his status as one of rap’s great MCs, along with 2Pac, Nas, Jay-Z, etc. The "noise" in the title is what the pop world thought of hip-hop in the early days. Chuck D welcomes the slur. Yes it is "noise," he is rapping, our kind of noise, and if you don’t like it, tough. As in much of black music, of course, there is an underground "elitism" there meant to shoo away the white establishment. The "noise" played the same gatekeeping function as the jarring harmonies, forbidding virtuosity, and asymmetric rhythm of bebop did 40 years earlier. It didn’t help matters that Seamus Heaney (a poet I admire enormously) praised the poetic power of hip-hop. Heaney was right, of course, but to declare hip-hop safe for the establishment was the last thing hip-hop needed. (Everyone was probably too busy listening to Britney to hear Heaney.)
Some quick historical perspective. In my view, one pop figure dominates, nah, towers over everyone else. Nothing the Brits did comes anywhere close. Same with Elvis. No one can claim his musical breadth, creativity, and influence. That person, of course, is James Brown. And yet there was always something missing. Brown was always so far ahead of everyone else he ended up talking to himself. And you can’t formalize a new language when you only talk to yourself. Hip-hop is Brown’s legacy as an autonomous musical genre, its culmination if you will. It’s a genre that never ceases to amaze me. It’s not musical in the traditional sense of the word. But there’s an emotional intensity to it, a rhythmic richness, and a verbal brilliance that have no equivalent in pop music. I love it." |
You’ve been thinking about Rap music for 30 years, and this is your conclusion? I don’t think most of it (rap) is even music. I feel the same about a lot of the modern classical compositions I was forced to study in college. Comparing either to real music is akin to comparing that orange-colored chemical crap they put in Pixy Stix to taking a bite of a slice of an actual orange. Really? Sorry to be harsh, but I would frankly expect a deeper opinion after 30 minutes of thought. To be clear, I’m not asking you – or anyone – to LIKE the music. But if you are going dismiss it so thoroughly, at least provide a reason beyond "yuck!". |
I'm quite surprised that no one has mentioned Gil Scott-Heron, as he was clearly a very powerful, early influence on the genre. And if you think that rap is all about "thugs", or that rap artists aren't musicians, then you haven't listened to Scott-Heron.
For those who are interested, try "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" and "In the Bottle". |
The common denominator that ties the vast majority of the harsh critics – like garebear above – is that they lump all rap artists together.
That alone underscores that their opinions stem from ignorance.
Don’t misunderstand: everyone is of course free to express their opinions, and it is perfectly reasonable to dislike the genre. But dismissing it with a disdainful wave of the hand is simply ignorant. |
Thanks for providing such clear, unvarnished confirmation. |
Condescending? No, a statement a fact, which I have supported clearly. It is also disappointing that while you have expressed your sweeping and strong opinions on this thread, you haven’t even bothered to read it carefully (if at all). On the first page I posted this essay from 2009, from Bernard Chazelle, Professor of Computer Science at Princeton: Bring the Noise
Public Enemy’s political voice may have obscured the enduring brilliance of their work. It’s been 21 years since the release of "It Takes a Nation" and it’s hard to believe how fresh, innovative, and emotionally powerful that album still sounds. The raw energy of Chuck D’s booming voice, trading rhymes with Flavor Flav, is channeled through a layered mix of swirling scratches, quick beats, and funky James-Brown samplings. It’s only when you listen to the old masters like PE and Run-DMC that you realize how much the current generation (Kanye and the rest) are in their debt. And, who knows, perhaps gangsta rap will even prove to be a short-lived commercial aberration.
You may know Chuck D from his Air America radio show and perhaps less from his status as one of rap’s great MCs, along with 2Pac, Nas, Jay-Z, etc. The "noise" in the title is what the pop world thought of hip-hop in the early days. Chuck D welcomes the slur. Yes it is "noise," he is rapping, our kind of noise, and if you don’t like it, tough. As in much of black music, of course, there is an underground "elitism" there meant to shoo away the white establishment. The "noise" played the same gatekeeping function as the jarring harmonies, forbidding virtuosity, and asymmetric rhythm of bebop did 40 years earlier. It didn’t help matters that Seamus Heaney (a poet I admire enormously) praised the poetic power of hip-hop. Heaney was right, of course, but to declare hip-hop safe for the establishment was the last thing hip-hop needed. (Everyone was probably too busy listening to Britney to hear Heaney.)
Some quick historical perspective. In my view, one pop figure dominates, nah, towers over everyone else. Nothing the Brits did comes anywhere close. Same with Elvis. No one can claim his musical breadth, creativity, and influence. That person, of course, is James Brown. And yet there was always something missing. Brown was always so far ahead of everyone else he ended up talking to himself. And you can’t formalize a new language when you only talk to yourself. Hip-hop is Brown’s legacy as an autonomous musical genre, its culmination if you will. It’s a genre that never ceases to amaze me. It’s not musical in the traditional sense of the word. But there’s an emotional intensity to it, a rhythmic richness, and a verbal brilliance that have no equivalent in pop music. I love it."
Now that is a serious look at the genre. Some may disagree with his specific views, but he has undoubtedly given the subject thought. Furthermore, I have twice mentioned an important, early rap artist, Gil Scott-Heron, who will undoubtedly endure, and I suggested a specific song of his. You either didn’t read my post(s) carefully, or ignored them. Heavy D., Run DMC, Public Enemy, NWO, The Sugarhill Gang, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five (try "The Message"), are a few that are worth listening to. Their music and messages are important reflections of the world of inner city blacks. |
I appreciate that you are willing to engage further.
While it is good to see you acknowledge that there is subjectivity involved in the appreciation of various types of music, that is only the most obvious point. I have already made another important one, which is that you (and other strident critics of rap) lump all artists together. It’s as if you heard some loud, pounding tracks, emanating from beat-up cars populated by "thugs", saw a few videos, and your mind was made up.
Now, I understand that you have a visceral dislike of the genre, and that’s fine. I wouldn’t expect you to do careful research in an effort to root out some rappers who are actually talented musicians, and have something to say. But on this very thread, just a few posts up, I suggested that critics listen to Gil Scott-Heron’s "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised". Scott-Heron was an excellent musician whose lyrics were politically powerful and important. His work was highly inspirational to early many rappers, whose work was in some ways quite different than what you typically hear today.
These are the reasons that I used the word "ignorant". I was not using it in the typical, contemporary sense. I meant that your ignorance of the nuances of the genre preclude any possibility of you arriving at a thoughtful conclusion. What you are essentially saying is that you can’t stand the music, which again, is fine. But dismissing it without understanding either its political and sociological importance, or without even gaining an understanding of the many different types and quality of artists, is ignorant. |
I used the quote of Chazelle's not to support my opinion, but to illustrate an example of a thoughtful take on rap. Before I challenged you, you said: "It NEVER was any good and 30 years from now ...no 5 years from now, do you think that you will be listening to any of the, for a lack of any better words ; songs that are being played now ???? I think not...I am amazed that crap is still around" Now, you say: "I have listened to 2Pac and Jay-z and they are good and actually had a message......a message that unfortunately I could not be part of nor will I ever understand or know and much less, ever experience..... the life of inner city blacks. Instead of being combative - that viewpoint should have been expressed as I would have least understood more of what you were trying to say - and not use someone else's '' paper'' to support your opinion.......So, then I guess I never will understand that music or it's message, however, I will continue to listen to possibly gain a little more insight. But I will never condone the violence it promotes, the objectivity of women or lack morals that seems to promote - along with a very distorted value system." That's some serious dissonance, though I'm glad that you have changed and softened your stance. Look, I'm a 58yo white guy, so I can't directly relate to the inner-city black experience, either. But I can empathize, in the same way that I can empathize with Palestinians, etc. So, simply understanding that the best examples of the genre contain important insights into the struggles of a large underclass should be sufficient to have some respect for the music, even if you don't care for the sound. Your final line in the quote above, though, is another example of you painting with far too broad a brush, as there are many examples of rap that contain messages that are the opposite of what you describe. To answer your other question, yes, I have listened to the artists that you mentioned. My tastes are eclectic, and my preferences are jazz, soul, funk, and world music. I actually listen to relatively little rap. |
@garebear
We happen to be in basic agreement about the specific comparisons that you have made. While I do believe, for reasons that I have noted, that rap will endure, and that the best and most important of its performers will have long lasting legacies, I do not put them in the same category as the likes of Beatles, Dylan, James Brown, etc.
Also, like you, I prefer most other forms of music to rap.
But having said that, even if one doesn't like spoken word lyrics laid over raw beats, it is useful to listen to the messages that the best rap artists brought/bring to the table, as they remind listeners, often in pungent terms, of deeply important problems that challenge America and much of the rest of the world, namely class, race, poverty and inequality.
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@ps
The next time that you decide to step up on your soapbox, I'd suggest actually reading the posts on the thread first. |
@ps I was primarily referring to this: "This is one of the most insipid and vacuous threads on this website. There is an elephant in this room and it has little to do with musical taste." I (and others) had been directly addressing that elephant throughout the whole thread. |
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