With what you just said, I would put half into a Swarm/distributed bass array. This will give you awesome unbeatable bass with any speakers you may use going forward. With the rest, and maybe a little more, the Raven Nighthawk https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/nighthawk-mk3-tube-amplifier/This together will be almost exactly your $6k budget and a HUGE IMPROVEMENT across the board. Plus notice the Raven has not only a sub out but also a built-in crossover for extra flexibility. If you build your DBA like I did then you can have either beautiful wood finish and two Dayton amps all for under $3k, OR you could have just as good quality bass with one Dayton amp and cheaper finish on the subs and keep the cost well under $2k. Either way this combo, the DBA and the Raven, will be darn near unbeatable for $6k. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
I'm a PrimaLuna man. I had to get over my aversion to Chinese made gear and all is good now. The build quality is outstanding, looks not offensive to me and I really enjoy the way you can roll tubes painlessly. It's a lot of fun and I've owned many tube rigs over the last several decades. BTW, the sound quality is outstanding. I don't know your speakers and their power requirements. Good luck, stay safe and have fun.
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I heard good things about Prima luna. As a matter of fact, I made my decision to buy the Rogue over the PL bc the Rogue gave me more watts90 vs the PL 30. Im a little concern that tube amps dont put a lot of WPC vs SS amps. Maybe there is a better way to evaluate tube amps.
Millercarbon suggested the Raven. but just 30WPC!
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30wpc is not enough to make the Vandersteens sing. Call Johnny R @ Audio Connections. The Belles Aria integrated drove the Vandersteens with real authority when I was at his shop last year. Johnny will be able to match your speakers to the amp which sounds the best within your budget. He will NOT sell you something you don't need or that doesn't sound good. |
friend of mine is recommending the Mc Gary SA 1 tube amp at 30 wpc. Some reviews say the put a lot more power and can drive a lot of speakers. but 30 is still 30..... |
A watt is not necessarily a watt for tubes. They seem to my ears to play well above their rated power..... |
Three things:
1. With internal crossover the Raven won't have to deliver a lot of bass.
2. Watts are not created equal. Tube watts are at least twice SS watts.
and saving the best for last:
3. If the first watt isn't any good, why would you want 200 more of them? |
jaymark you made a statement I have heard before. tube WPC are under rated and compared to ss amps is apples vs oranges. It seems that the only way is to listen to them. |
Doesn’t that Rogue have preamp outputs? You can use those outputs to hook up a subwoofer! |
the question is has any one played Vandys with Mc Gary SA1 or Prima luna 30 wpc ? |
Consider a REL Serie S with a speakon connector. No sub out required. You can even go wireless with the Longbow adapter. |
the Vandersteen efficiency was measured by Stereophileto be around 86db. You need lots of power, I should know as I owned Vandersteen 2CE signature Ones for close to 10 years. Tube watts are no different than SS watts. Watts are watts, doesn’t matter how they are derived. The tube amps clip much more gracefully and that is the reason they sound more powerful.
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great advice to call Johnny Rutan, he can take you thru various options to make your Two’s sing. The acoustic couple on the rear plays pretty low and needs to couple with wall..and IMO requires an amp with some grunt and damping factor to control it.
IF your Rogue has pre out/amp in you can use Vandersteen high pass filter and a Vandersteen model 2 ( a pair used ) or one Model 3 sub w 11 bands kf analog bass EQ.with that setup you take load off main speakers and amp and get same transfer function to both subs and main.
have fun enjoy the music. |
" The Rogue doesn't have an output for a sub woofer." The Rogue does have a subwoofer output! |
Used Octave V70se or 110se. I know a dealer you can probably get a good deal from. Great bass like ss. |
Johnny used to sell the Music Reference RM-9 to 2C owners, a marriage made in heaven (owners of that pairing live happily for years). Alas, the amp is no longer available, and is hard to come by used. The RM-200 might be even better with the 2C, as the amp likes low impedances more than does the more traditional tube design of the RM-9. RM-200 Mk.2's can occasionally be had for around $3,000, the original for $2,000. Worth waiting for. |
Watts are watts, doesn’t matter how they are derived. The tube amps clip much more gracefully and that is the reason they sound more powerful. Then why did every one I tried sound more powerful even when driven nowhere near clipping? Three different solid state amps, 150 to 200 wpc, the best of which was the McCormack DNA1, but with less dynamism, mass slam and control, than 50 and 60 wpc tube amps. Its not true in every case. There are anemic sounding tube amps, just as there are POS SS. Its probably more the transformers than the tubes but whatever, point is, they are so not the same its actually kinda odd to be having an argument about it. I mean heck not even all SS watts are the same. They sure don't sound the same. Everyone knows it. Amplifiers sound different. Your position is simply untenable and only goes to show the hole you can dig yourself into when you rely too much on tech talk. Vandersteens at 86 dB are admittedly at the bottom of the range of suitable speakers. But that's the bottom of the range of suitable speakers, period. Because sound is logarithmic, the power needed to produce it increases exponentially. Not linear. Its a big mistake ever to buy a speaker this inefficient in the first place. But if you have one, still its better to drive it with watts that sound good than watts that don't. |
Tube amp sound is dominated by the output transformers- Roger Modjeski hand wound his own. The RM-9 used the Vandersteen 2 in development. An excellent match w and Vandersteen @clio this forum can connect you with what remains of Music Reference inventory.
as for efficiency, so often higher output is just trash - out of phase junk that counts as output. |
Thank God we have millercarbon here to school all of us Audio no-nothings. Over 50+ years in the hobby and I still don’t know as much as him! I am surprised there wasn’t a link to his system again. |
stereo5"Thank God we have millercarbon here to school all of We Audio no-nothings. Over 50+ years in the hobby and still don’t know as much as him."
It has been said that "It is never too late to learn" but please know and understand that millercarbon is often outright wrong about many of the "facts", claims, and advise he distributes here. |
Also no matter which transformers coupled amp you choose do experiments with light loading the output transformers- so for example I use the 2 ohm tap on my RM-9 with Vandersteen Treo to great effect and keeps the amp in class A longer - the test is listening and light loading IF your levels can keep you out of clipping.
Roger M wrote extensively this and many related subjects- a search will reveal a lot of free wisdom- RIP Roger |
To the OP - a couple of questions re bass and positioning of your 2’s in room.
how far from back wall ? Do you have SPL meter ? Can you download and play Vandertones ( via Vandersteen website ) thru your system. What is your reference track for bass ? Willing to help you get it dialed in :-)
best
jim |
tomic601
my vandies are 36 inches from th back wall and 22 from the sides. this measurement is from the center of the of the speaker top. My room is 23"x 12' carpeted .
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Tube amp sound is dominated by the output transformers
as for efficiency, so often higher output is just trash - out of phase junk that counts as output. Both statements above are not really accurate. What about OTLs- they have no output transformer (and drive the Vandys quite nicely). I've heard plenty of speakers with greater efficiency that are great- they higher output they have is just fine. As far a sub, the Swarm is an excellent choice, being one of the best out there. No room correction needed, because it gets rid of problems with standing waves, and flat to 20Hz. If the bass below 80Hz were filtered out of the amp for the Vandys, 60 watts would be plenty in a room of this size. This is easy to do; we've made passive crossovers for Vandersteens a good number of times in the past. |
Just one problem, atmasphere, and sorry to say because this may be the death knell, but you are absolutely right and I agree completely. You even suggest a mod, which I have done many times and agree with as well. Sorry. Sorry.
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Perhaps consider selling your speakers and pick up Vandy 3a sigs? |
I’m impressed with what Rel subs do for sound. Not only do they add bass but they add a bigger sound stage and air to your main speakers. They also connect to your speaker output of your amp, making a dedicated sub output unnecessary. I can’t argue against the swarm since I’ve never heard it. But I can see where it may have a WAF problem.
BTW, the Sumiko subs are a Rel clone and offer the same connections and results. |
