What Sonically is the Difference between a $1,500 CD Player and a $10K-$25K One?
I realize opinions may vary, but if I could give an example of two CD players perhaps someone can give me their thoughts on the cost benefits of either one? What would be the difference in your opinion between say a Cambridge Audio Azur 851C CD Player and the Gryphon Scorpio S CD Player? And are the difference truly audible or more technical and rather indiscernible through human hearing?
In general, what makes a CD player (other than build components) 10x more costly than a decently built one other than features?
My deaf audiophile friends and I compared the Onkyo and Sony, surprisingly/shockingly the dinky Sony POC sounded as good. Got rid of the annoying Onkyo.
Now, system more revealing that ever, let's see if this old dog Oppo can beat the Sony POC.
I have never been able to find the difference between a cheap CD player and a more expensive CD player. The most expensive CD player I have ever owned is a Pioneer CLD-97 though even that has some issues in that it doens't play blu-spec CDs very well (no older CD player does. they seem to only play well on blu-ray players). A good CD player will have good controls, heavy, and stable. From what several have told me, one of the best CD players ever made was Onkyo's DX-G10 CD player from 1988. That CD player was built like a tank using a heavy reinforced graphite-steel chassis that's heavier and more stable then most $20,000 CD players. It used reliable parts that allowed it to function well for years and played back flawlessly. Several people have told me they never listened to a better CD player then the DX-G10 (or C-2001 in Japan).
I't's kind of like Dac's. Our club did a shootout of Dacs from several hundreds of dollars to thousands. If the engineering and implementation is solid, the differences may not be as significant as the dollars would indicate. My experience is that you need to spend a whole lot more on an analog system vs. a cd player for the sound to pull away. I have a hard time with pop's and clicks on analog. It drives me crazy. I have had 7 cd players over the years. The last three were Modwright models and my current one is a Marantz based player. Every one of those Modwright models has been a step up due to the tube power supply and output stage. The ultra expensive units would require an audition and a used purchase.
I think saying there is no sound difference is foolish. However, if your system is not resolving enough you won’t hear a difference. I just went from a Sony Modwright Es 5400 $3000 to an MBL c31 $9200 bucks. Mbl has better soundstage, detail, power micro dynamics. Clearly a difference. However, my system also has very well made components and speakers that are resolving enough.
You really have to consider all major stages of the operation of the player, this is why you often get better performance out of separates rather than throwing all you hope into one integrated CD player.
The transport The digital conversion The output stage (Even possibly input stage if it functions as a DAC)
Each stage should be carefully considered by any audiophile and maximized to taste. This is after all a game of preferences. But I do firmly believe that each piece is important starting from the very first watt and that nothing can be retrieved if it is lost further up the chain.
I went from a tube modwright Sony Es 5400 to a Mbl c31. Better soundstage, depth, detail, imaging and transparency. There is a difference if you pick the right 10k player or up!
I don’t really have any mega bucket equipment, I simply can’t afford it. But like anything in life it’s in the details and this is what you’re paying for. Generally.
For me it’s akin to looking up at the night sky on a full moon night. An inexpensive component ( notice I didn’t say cheap ) will show you the moon in all its clarity for sure, with a sprinkling stars, it beautiful, but go to a place like Colorado and look up at that same night sky and it’s akin to looking with a high-end piece of equipment - you see the moon and it’s clarity, but NOW you can also see 10,000 more stars and the edge of the Milky Way and its awe inspiring- it’s, it’s those types of details, whether it’s timber, tone, soundstage, etc. - that makes the difference, but, and here is the key question, how many more stars do you see with that more expensive piece, and is it worth it, only you can tell.
huge improvement in my system too, though, yes, there are some expensive units I do not like and some less expensive ones I like very much...though unfortunately all the ones I like best are more expensive...
Im glad that you asked this question I just purchased a mcintosh mct 450 and was so excited to hear such an improvement in sound with this sacd transport.My system is nothing too fancy but I believe it to be very decent .after hours of listening I was satisfied but not blown away.If I could afford something more I believe I would have spent up to 15k just chasing down that perfect sound .Each person is different, Ive become satisfied with my purchases as I feel its the best possible audio for my small budget .Thanks to all who post .
Price does not indicate the design and parts quality. I can make a great looking chassis and put crap inside and sell it for much more that a cardboard box chassis. But I can also make a product and put it into a cardboard box that would also sound great.
When I look at "expensive" components, I rarely see high quality parts such as custom transformers, capacitors and resistors. I see mostly aluminum chassis milled from thick aluminum. Looks great but sounds better than the less expensive stuff.
When I modify something I start with the power supply and filter the AC first, then improve the capacitors and resistors. Plus point-to-point wiring. When you find something like that, you will hear the differences within 30 seconds.
My electronics/cabling manufacturing friend got a COS Engineering $3,000 DAC that blows away my EAR Acute which is twice the price. It took about 13 years since I purchased my CD player for me to hear the improvement in a DAC since most under $5,000 DACs I've heard are no better (and sound less analog-like) since 2006. The COS unit is remarkable (based on a slimmed down $10,000 pre-amp/DAC unit). Amazing and affordable compared to the high end DACs costing $10-50,000 I've heard at shows.
It is all about pounding your chest when you have your buddies over to show them your new stuff. It is then very important to tell them what you spent so they can all be extremely impressed. Then ask one of your buddies to do a blind testing between the old and new CD player to see how much difference you can hear for the $20,000 difference.
Reminds me of the story, "THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHS"!
Then you buddies turn to you as ask, "HOW MUCH DID YOU PAY FOR THAT THING"? Kind of reminds me of the Smuckers commercial. If it's Smuckers it has to be good.
itsjustme I agree. What bothers me is that my London/Decca opera LPs sound so much cleaner/less distorted than the comparable CDs, most of them digitized in the 1990s (just compare the choral parts of Turandot/Mehta-the CD is distorted). I don't have that problem with any other classical label (7,000 CDs in my collection). I have many wonderful 1980s jazz CDs from Contemporary and Japanese CDs. I also have terrible/awful remasterings of mono RCA opera from the last few years (the 1980s transfers sound 90% as good as the original LPs, the new ones have cut off bass and highs, forward bright sounding mids, compression-yuk!). Many Amazon reviewers seconded that conclusion. Luckily, I have many Kevin Gray remasterings of all genres in both LP and CD formats.
For my listening pleasure, I spent a ton of money on my listening room/acoustics. Next is the cost of my analog front end. Digital front ends can sound great even if they aren't expensive nowadays, unlike the 50-75 CD players from the 80s and 90s that I tried. Speakers are very important in the chain and lucked out using great older speakers rather than new ones at a pittance of new price. I get SOTA cabling from a manufacturer as a beta tester and the rest of the electronics are custom made at a low price as well (my second CD only system costs $5k yet sounds better than 90%+ of audio show gear-simple but perfectly matched tube gear and 25 year old speakers).
Matching good sounding components is the key to good sound after accounting for the big elephant in the room-the room itself. I use Hallographs and SR HFTs to tune the room perfectly. Those are items generally not found in audio shows or audio salons. Too bad as their cost relative to their merits is well worth it. One can use lesser equipment in a great room but ruin great equipment in a poor sounding room.
I went to a demo by the guy from stereo magazine in the padoo room and he did proper back to back comparisons of the same recording cd v vinyl. Vinyl sounded better to my ears. He explained that when a stylus moves in a groove it is like the thickening of a line on a seismograph- it is actually a distortion that we like.
Elizabeth said: "Well MY digital is great, and so is my analog." Voice of reason. Some of my digital -- even redbook, is glorious. Much of it is terrible. Some of my albums are glorious, some are terrible. HUGE POINT HERE - often its the SAME recording that is glorious in both formats. Case in point: "Ella and Louis", Verve recorded with two mics onto a Studer A-77 in like 1961. Recordings matter. Mixing matters. remixing and digital masterings matter. Format, to me, is less important if all the above are done correctly. Sadly, they are not, and early digital recording, mastering and pre-eq was just terrible. No mystery why those sounded as they did.
KEY POINT #2: both formats are capable of excellent sound. Perfect? Of course not. Neither are LPs. Now, back to the OP’s question - which was basically around the incremental value from $1500 to $15,000. This is a subjective matter, and a slippery slope. Just as racers inevitably wind up with dedicated race cars, trailer, trucks, etc., so many audiophiles wind up with crazy-costly systems. I only hope they are well chosen and enjoyed. but its likely not necessary - I’ve heard very good sound from iTunes, Bitperfect and a Schiit BiFrost Multi-bit. Above i noted where some differences can certainly exist. I’m currently evaluating how to hit the 80/20 rule on many of them. My personal opinion is that the biggest differences today, especially for the dollar spent, come from speakers and sources, both analog and digital. You can get really, really good electronics for more modest spend (note: i design and [hope to again] sell electronics, I’m stabbing myself in the back). Note that "modest" might range form $1000 - $6 or 7k, and some speakers are very challenging loads, while others can be driven by an NAD 3020 (like Vandy 2s). While cables no doubt impact sound i find the benefit/$$ ratio wildly bad - better spend that money on speakers or DACS (or a great TT/arm/cart). Oh, that’s still a tough area of electronics - RIAA stages for low output cartridges...
Good point! I made the same point five days ago. I call it the Hierarchy of Sound.
All CD players regardless of price are subject to the deleterious effects of vibration and background stray laser light. Therefore, one would be better off buying an inexpensive player and fixing those problems than simply investing beaucoup bucks on a player. There are obviously many other related issues such as interconnects, power cord, fuse, external DAC, etc.
No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started off with more in the beginning. - old audiophile axiom
A rich audiophile has about as much chance of entering Audio Nirvana as a camel 🐪 has of passing through the eye 👁 of a needle. - old audiophile axiom
I am enjoying many of the posts here from the usual contributors.
One thing, I would like to clarify is that while there may be differences between the $1500 and $15K CD players (or transports and DACs...which IMO would be the better way to go) the differences, if any depend on the rest of YOUR setup and YOUR room, which will be different than the showroom and anyone else’s setup and room.
For instance, bring in that $15K transport and DAC and hook them up with stock cables and cables and connect them to a noisy electrical system and cheap power strips and I would be willing to bet that you won’t hear as big a difference as if you used good cables and had proper power handling and noise/EMI mitigation.
So it is not just about the CD player or transport and DAC. They don’t operate in a vacuum. Attention should be paid to getting the rest of the system and your power management to an equally good level.
Many of us here know this. But I don’t think it has been mentioned here yet and so it’s not as simple as a for instance comparing a top end CD player vs a good transport and top end DAC. The rest of the system and power handling matter perhaps just as much or maybe even more.
"All CD players throughout history have been plagued by fatal problems. While it may be true that some advances have been made in CD playback nobody has solved the problems of scattered laser light, seismic vibration, and the various vibrations produced by both the CD player and the CD itself. If you don’t mind the missing information, the crappy bass performance and the compressed sound, more power to you. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, “What missing information, crappy bass performance and compressed sound? My system sounds fabulous!” 🤗"
Sure geoffkait, they all sound like garbage except yours.
I didn't bother to read through the posts, but if you have to ask that question, there probably won't be a difference to you, but I suspect that you are just a troll.
Well, couldn't resist dipping my toe in here. 1st let me say my system is modest by audio mag standards, but it sounds good in my room. I have both a decent TT and several hundred albums, and I do love the analog sound. That said, I also have 3 disc players: a Sony EX5400es and an Oppo BDP 95, both modified by ModWright, and a Sony 555es changer, modded by Matt Anker at the now-defunct SACDmods, who was then at OSU but is now in the Navy. I listened to each of these players before and after modding, and I must say the difference is audible. Each was an excellent player out of the box, but the mods take it to a new level.
I won't bore you with the details of the mods, you can see those on ModWright's site, but a well-recorded redbook CD or SACD on any of these produces delightful results. Different, but all good to my ear. And as between vinyl and CD, yep, I like them both. Different, but good.
The mods took each of these players from an original cost of around $1500 (a little less for the Oppo) to around $3500. Well worth it IMHO. Would 10X more produce 10X "better" sound? No, because the law of diminishing returns applies in spades where audio is concerned. Better, probably, but possibly not audible. And we must also consider that there are many links in the audio chain, from the plug in the wall to the room. Any weak link in that chain (including and especially the quality of the recording) would make it difficult if not impossible to assess the difference in any one component. And compatibility with your own system is another factor to be considered.
Anyway, it's a fun hobby, and it stays fun as long as you find something you like and stick with it instead of chasing the elusive absolute sound. Remember it's really all about the music, not the gear. I think I'll go listen to some tunes now. Vinyl or CD, and which player... hmmm, maybe I'll flip a coin.
glupson - Correct that CDs don't fail very often, the laser is usually at fault. 1 or 2 out of 7,000 CDs made since 1984 have failed me. I make it a point to clean the laser every year (1,000 hours) or sooner. It makes a difference with 80+ minute CDs (London classical reissues sometimes go to 85 minutes). Elizabeth and roxy54 - I 100% agree. The mastering is numero uno in the resulting quality of vinyl and CD. Just last night, I played Turandot/Mehta on a London CD but when the chorus came in, it was a hashy mess. I put the LP Decca version on and bliss, full, detailed sound. (Why do so many of my London opera CDs sound like poor quality remastering compared to the LPs whereas London's mono classical sound superior to their LPs)? I went through about 40 used CD players from 1985 to 2000 (mostly average quality/$500-$1500 Denon, Sony, Yamaha, Marantz etc.) until I found the EAR Acute 1 in 2007. Audio nirvana with NOS tubes and cabling. My friend upgraded his CD only system with a COS Engineering DAC using a Pioneer Elite DV05 as a transport. Yes, it's got superior resolution. I do not have the problems geokaitt claims CDs have with well recorded and mastered CDs. My sound engineered audioroom cost twice as much as my main audio system but it's worth it (only an external tweak here and there, no big change ever again). I have friends who are CD or vinyl only listeners. Funny how they both enjoy my quad front end system (plus RR and 78s). CDs are just easier to use than LPs.
I had a Bryston BCD-1($2,750) and found it superior to what i had heard before. It's shot and my limited funds have gone into analog playback instead. Though i would trade into the Bryston BCD-3, $3,750, ($2,200) with returned BCD-1. I heard a $15k disc player at a friend's which sounded far superior to the Bryston. Zero shortcomings, very analog. I don't have a DAC, next time some money shows up I may dive deeper into analog by adding a second tonearm for a mono cartridge and phono stage. Leaving digital out of my listening room.
These kind of questions are sadly just going to do no service to the person who is asking. I am sure you are asking in pure hearted curiosity. Unfortunately you are wading into a battlefield occupied by several armies. There are certainly many CD players that are over priced but to say that all high priced players are flim flammery is to dismiss the costs of development, testing, parts quality, manufacturing, distribution, etc. It is a complex question that can really be understood best by auditioning a lot of equipment yourself. In my case, I have heard a lot of stuff in a lot of different settings to come to my purchasing decisions. I would just advise setting a budget and listening to as much as you can (Never mind the price) then settling for what you feel hits the mark in your range. For me, I ended buying something that was about a third more than my original budget because it just sounded worth the money. You can read all of these posts and get a feel for all the current hardline attitudes and then make your decisions. My decision has always been to trust my ears. Mostly they haven’t steered me wrong. If they do it is usually because I didn’t listen long enough or carefully enough without distractions.
All CD players throughout history have been plagued by fatal problems. While it may be true that some advances have been made in CD playback nobody has solved the problems of scattered laser light, seismic vibration, and the various vibrations produced by both the CD player and the CD itself. If you don’t mind the missing information, the crappy bass performance and the compressed sound, more power to you. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, “What missing information, crappy bass performance and compressed sound? My system sounds fabulous!” 🤗
What no one seems to be talking about & is essential to realizing huge qualitative gains by spending a lot more money on digital - is if that money is put to excellent use in designing a truly outstanding analog stage. It’s far rarer then everyone likes to assume. I always was bored silly by the very detailed Berkely ref until they did a thorough redesign of it. If its a really well-designed tube one then you have something really special. Zanden did an excellent job here (although the digital section was slightly compromised by their choice of chip). Their new DAC & chip could very well be fabulous though. Micromega’s best tube Dac is also supposed to be wondrous. Some others too.
Just don’t listen to a quality record playing system of the same money as expensive digital. You'll become one of the many you see selling expensive digital gear because (as they say in their ads) they’re going back to vinyl. What you don’t know won’t (perceptibly) hurt you here.
Look y’all I heard the solutions 540 after I heard the luxman d06 and the Luxman was no slouch but the soulution player is the best I have heard in my life. I think it’s 35k. It sounds analog, natural, open with big images. Lots of air ,space, timbre. However you have to have great equipment as well in the rest of your system. I suspect some commenters may have not experienced the mid to high end systems. You can’t out this player in a 10k system and reap its real benefits. I have owned a 10k system and it was good but as I grew in the hobby I was able to get a 40k system that now allows me to hear more detail, space, air and dimensionality. Your gear has to be able to assist in reproducing the great sound benefits.
One assumes between now and August 24 the day of the ten DAC blind test the DACs under test will be breaking in along with all the cabling. Or is that too much to ask?
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